Warlock > Wizard

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Wizard, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    This is an odd argument to make, but I'm going to put it out there.

    Wizards should be weaker than Warlocks right now.

    Why? Because when Warlocks were undeniably worse than Wizards and were able to be demonstrably shown to be so, it took 2 years for the tables to turn. I'd love to enjoy the same kind of feeling that Wizards were able to enjoy for at least one full expansion. Even back in the Drunder days, a Wizards was better on every possible combination of parses... better on single, better on blue, and even better on green because their blues were so strong.

    Intellectually, I'm all for balance. But seeing as the class I excel at was on the wrong side of the balance for a very long time, I don't feel compelled to say "ok Wizards got a few months to feel what I felt for years... so their few months are enough".

    If you want to fix FB, have it store the damage and then have a 2nd button to click to release it.
    If you die, you're screwed, just like if I die during FC or if a bard dies during VC. Just have it store like RO, and release like VC. And sure, add a few little boosts while doing it, thats fine.

    Remember, as stats and mod continues to grow, the gap will close NATURALLY, due to Wizards being able to utilize more mods than Warlocks due to base spell size. Some of the gap right now is significantly a function of where stats sit. Add 10k mod to both Wizards and Warlocks and all of a sudden the entire atmosphere would change. Not saying the tables would turn, but it would look a lot different.
  2. Konc3pt Active Member

    Can wizards (and wizards only) have uncapped SDA.
  3. Wizard Member

    Your logic is broken friend, essentially you're saying one class deserves to suffer now because of a previous imbalance outside of their control.

    At any given time all classes should be balanced within their respective roles, period. If at any time this is not the case the developers should be working diligently to correct it.

    It wasn't the Wizard's fault if there was a previous imbalance between the two sorcerers and as such they should not be punished for it now anymore than Warlocks should be punished for the imbalance with Focused Casting.

    I think years is an exaggeration, months is a lot more realistic and I will certainly acknowledge again that there was an imbalance in CoE between the two Sorcerers however it was nowhere near as extreme as the current imbalance and I can assure you that Wizards were not the ones responsible for the imbalance.

    I haven't put a tremendous amount of thought into it, so there may be some obvious problems with this change I'm over looking but yes as I suggested earlier in this thread and way back in the CoE beta threads, I feel having the ability to store Fiery Blast and then releasing it at will with another click/button would solve a few of the current issues with it in most scenarios.

    The difference between a Warlock dieing during a Focused Casting chain vs a Wizard dieing during a Fiery Blast chain is pretty significant and obviously varies depending on how long into the chain the Warlock is but consider the bulk of our damage comes from the final hit at the end of the chain as opposed to Warlocks having fairly consistent damage for the entire duration of their chain.
  4. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    1) You're still missing that as mod grows (which it will) the gap will narrow.

    2) When we had the short end of the stick, we were always told, (by wizards as well( that pure class balance was impossible if the game were to have unique classes. While this is true, I understand intellectually that you want at least some amount of balance between class power. Long term this is fine. Closing the gap a little with some small tweaks to FB is cool. However anything more than a small and subtle boost to Wizards is too much, too soon.

    3) I think you under estimate how long it has been where Wizards were the clearly superior class. There were no named mob in all of DOV and Drunder where a Warlock was truly stronger than a Wizard. The closet calls were the Aviak in Tallon's Stronghold and Berik, but these two were still a wizard advantage if RW dps was high enough. In Skyshrine, there was Vyskudra and the contested mob in Skyshrine, and everything else favored wizards. In CoE, there were 2 areas where Warlocks were possibly stronger - the adds room on pirates (definitely stronger) and Amalgamon (and even Amalgamon was iffy, because if the adds died fast enough, we wouldn't compete with wizards). SF was the last time it was close between our classes. SF was released in 2010. So yeah. 2 years is incorrect. Make it 4.

    4) Thing is, a period of Warlock love was well overdue. Summoner fixes are more important, and Warlocks deserve a little bit of time in the sun for those of us who endured and survived when the class was just bad. Even so, there really are only 4-5 of us WW that are putting up nasty numbers that wizard can't touch. The rest of the warlocks in the world I'm suer you should be able to hold your own against.
  5. Avahlynn Well-Known Member

    Wow. My class suffered so y'all should too. :/
  6. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    You mistake "let warlocks have some love" with "I want wizards to suffer".

    You're just not as strong as Warlocks right now. You're still way stronger than Summoners.
    You're not suffering.
  7. Wizard Member

    Mogrim, you acknowledge that Warlocks are not currently balanced with Wizards, so enlighten me what's the problem with pushing for the two classes to be balanced?

    Your argument of, well Warlocks had it rough for awhile now it's the Wizards turn to suffer is the argument a child would make when they're forced to share their favorite toy with a sibling.

    I'm pushing for a BALANCE between the two classes, that's it. How is this not a reasonable request?
  8. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    1) You're not suffering.
    2) When Warlocks were behind, we were reminded by Wizards that class power balance is like a swinging pendulum, and we were encouraged to be patient.

    If you and your friend were farmers, and year in and year out you outgrew his crops despite the fact that you didn't work any harder, but just that you were blessed with better weather because the GM in control of weather allowed it, and during this time you never shared your crops with your friend... would you really be so bold as to demand he share with you the one year he had a bumper crop?

    It isn't like Wizards are bad right now. Warlocks are just strong. Strong after years and years of being terrible.
    Wizards are not bad. They're not bad at all. Summoners are, but not Wizards.

    Everyone becomes a voice for equality when they're on the short end of the stick.

    I'd like to remind you, as wizards said to me when we suffered: Class balance is like a pendulum. I hope your changes come, I really do.

    In three years.
    Mindsway likes this.
  9. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    To elaborate: the pattern used so far in the game is to achieve class balance through seasons of power and seasons of mediocrity. That is to say, classes are not balanced at all times, but that they achieve an overall equilibrium through the ebb and flow of being powerful versus being mediocre.

    As is, Wizards are on the right side of mediocre. Summoners are not. Summoners were OP when pets triggered procs, then became mediocre when that stopped, and now are on the wrong side of mediocre with the lack of stat sharing.

    Summoners need a boost. Wizards are stronger than Summoners, and in the same ballpark of other T1s. In addition, gear evolution on the horizon will help Wizards.
  10. Avahlynn Well-Known Member

    That's the most ill formed argument. Really. A. I as a wizard main cannot 'share' crops or spells or whatever with you, as a warlock main. And B.instead of saying, hey, the powers that be deserve my ire for the 'weather control' they've exerted, Imma just be mad as wizards.

    Well ya got us. Found us out. You're totally on to us. Years ago we banded together and used the hidden wizard spire in California to sneak into SOE and tweak the warlock settings.

    Just cause we could.

    But for you and your meddling warlock friend,s we would've gotten away with it, too.

    A wizard did it. Cloak and wizards hat and all.


    You are allowed to be bitter, friend. No one denies warlocks were not loved much for some time. But if you fear a warlock blow for a wizard improvement, I'd not lose sleep over that. I for one don't see a pendulum with class balance. I don't. I'm glad when any class does well. Why? Cause I'm in a group with them. The better my group members are, the better we all do. Simple as.
    Xillean likes this.
  11. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    I can speak from experience that the issues with Warlocks were so bad that most top-end guilds didn't recruit them, and the only way a Warlock could be in a high end guild was by already being on the roster by tenure, or desperation from the high end guild, or having a guild absorb another guild and getting their warlock in the process. Things were bad enough that the top warlocks in the game were playing alts or betraying to wizard.

    Things for wizards right now are not as bad in that sense. In reality, Wizards are still in competition with Rangers and Assassins. Could a little 2-5% boost to your parse... or at least maybe just a less frustrating way for FB to play out be in order? Sure. Should you be buffed to be as strong as warlock right now? No.

    It isn't that I "don't want to share" out of greed. But because class balance has been generally achieved through swings of the pendulum, I object to the artificial changing of the seasons before the change is due.

    What I'd support is a minor change to FB to make FB work in a way that is less frustrating. During the record time, you'd be stun/stifle/interrupt immune and gain +100 Crit Chance to offset possible Crit Chance penalties. I'd even be willing to allow you to be "no hostiles" immune as well. The nuke would still NOT be allowed to spell double of course.

    While this wouldn't make your best parses much better, it would definitely give a boost to your ZW, as even the best wizards get hosed on their FB at least once a night at some point.

    As far as losing FB during death, I'd be fine with the recording simply detonating on expiration or the death of the wizard.
  12. Konc3pt Active Member

    Or they could you know, tone down FC so warlocks aren't in a league of their own.

    Stop being a cancer to this game.
    Xillean likes this.
  13. Wizard Member

    Mogrim, we're in agreeance that Warlocks are not currently balanced with Wizards but for some reason you have this childish mentality that Warlocks are somehow entitled to being over powered because of previous imbalances whether these imbalances existed for a day or 10 years is not relevant.

    With the exception of a couple of scripts/encounters favoring a particular class, the classes should always be balanced within their respective roles, there should never be one class that is blatantly over powered for any length of time.

    As far as the summoner references, this thread has nothing at all to do with Summoners, it's about balancing Sorcerers.

    Summoners have their own thread here which Aniathor was nice enough to take the time to outline all of the current issues plaguing them in. I'm not trying to take away any attention from the issues with Summoners, this isn't a one or the other situation BOTH Summoners AND Wizards could have changes made to balance their respective classes.
    Xillean, Neiloch and Avahlynn like this.
  14. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    And this really gets to the core of why I'm involved in this thread in the first place.

    Wizards had it good for such a long time. Frankly, no class dominated the top spot of their archetype as long as wizards dominated the mage archetype. They've had it REALLY good. They still do. Just for the first time in a long time, they just don't have it as good as someone else. They're still the second best mage dps class. They've never had to endure what Warlocks have.

    What happened as a result of the long time stretch of Wizards being the top mage dps is some players became spoiled with feelings of entitlement. It was way overdue for Wizards to occupy a place other than "top mage dps hands down". Frankly, it would be nice if the pendulum swung so far as to insert summoners slightly ahead of them, but I doubt it'll happen.
  15. Konc3pt Active Member

    I recall Dyynah being competitive on a warlock in CoE.

    But we'll just go with warlocks were really bad.
  16. Avahlynn Well-Known Member

    You are utterly toxic in your feelings of retribution. It's not a good look. Try and build a bridge and all that jazz...and while you're at it, I'd not toss the word entitlement around in the same breath as you're talking about 'what you'd support' for another class to be allowed to do or not do. Smacks of a rather entitled attitude, sir.

    As for wizards, I don't think anyone is demanding we be tops forevar and the b3st. But if one class surges ahead, it behooves everyone to look and see if they were sent too far ahead of the rest of the classes, or not. It has nothing to do with this idea of punitive damages heaped on wizards for the lol's of the warlocks.
    Xillean likes this.
  17. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Dyynah betrayed to wizard in COE and put up better numbers. Much better.

    Again, nothing punitive has been placed on wizards at all! I'm not asking for them to be nerfed. I'm even agreeing that some very slight boosts be given to FB because I agree that it shouldn't be as frustrating as it is. Wizards are still in competition with Rangers and Assassins, and definitely stronger than Necros and Conjs.

    Warlocks are the flavor of the day. But well played Assassins with finisher necks and a really good Fatal Follow-Up combo can really push them. Rangers and Wizards are right below that, with Summoners next.
  18. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    Other than that, I wish to again emphasize

    1) When warlocks were bad, we were scolded for complaining and were told that balance worked like a pendulum.
    2) Now that we're good, we're hearing people say "scrap the pendulum and equalize as much as possible as often as possible".

    For those of us that survived the downswing of the pendulum, this combination is unacceptable.

    Not to mention that it is really an extremely small cluster of elite players that are putting up these ungodly numbers. In survival of the fittest, if only the few very tough warlocks survived the very hostile conditions (conditions that endured a very long time) it would stand to reason that they'd be putting up great numbers.

    And before someone brings up Methasaurus... remember he played a Warlock before switching to Necro, and he was and is considered one of the highest-end mage dps players out there.
  19. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    I also think FB should be instacast and have no recovery time. Definitely. Along with spell bind.
  20. Mystere Member

    In the space of one thread this guy has utterly lost whatever credibility he may have had before. Avahlynn is right; this guy’s schadenfreude is breathing through every pore of his body and every post in this thread. His ridiculous pomposity in allowing or not allowing wizards to have this or that as if he were a dev himself is humorous and surreal at the same time.

    I don’t remember anyone talking about swinging pendulums in relation to wizard/warlock class balance. This sounds to me like a concocted device he’s using to maintain warlock OPness which he frankly admits to and would unabashedly like to keep for three years, apparently.