Warlock > Wizard

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Wizard, Jan 31, 2014.

  1. Wizard Member

    Although my concerns translate through to heroic content as well, this post is primarily in reference to Warlock VS Wizard on current end game raid encounters.

    The Warlock community cried on the forums for months leading up to ToV and with time running short on the expansion release date the squeaky wheel finally got the grease. The solution? Make Focused Casting so over powered that even Mogrim stopped complaining.

    The change to Warlock's Focused Casting makes them incredibly overpowered when compared to a Wizard of equal skill and gear. Not only do they have a significant amount of more "DPS potential" than a wizard on the majority of encounters but they are a lot easier to play and less prone to failure.

    One of the main reasons for the imbalance is a Wizard's Fiery Blast chain being dramatically more prone to failure than a Warlock's Focused Casting chain.

    Instead of having your entire parse relying on Fiery Blast (the spell with the most potential for failure in the game) a Warlock just does straight up more damage during their Focused Casting chain. Not only is Focused Casting much easier to use than Fiery Blast but during the duration of the Focused Casting chain (on the majority of encounters) mathematically it has a MUCH greater damage potential than a Fiery Blast chain. Yes Fiery Blast itself is a big impressive looking hit but assuming everything is up, spells, temps, etc. the total damage potential during both chains is much greater for Focused Casting.

    I also want to give two examples of end game items benefiting a Warlock significantly more than a Wizard further widening the gap between the two Sorcerer's "Damage Potential", these are less important than balancing Fiery Blast vs Focused Casting but still important to consider when balancing the two classes for end game.

    Torque of Divine Inspiration:

    In order to be even remotely competitive on the parse with a Warlock the Wizard needs to time at least one Fiery Blast chain (depending on the length of the encounter) while the boss/adds are under 30% in order to utilize the damage bonus from the finisher neck, now if the boss happens to die before Fiery Blast finishes you just lost your biggest hit and are now probably a few million DPS under the Warlock. Alternatively if the Warlock times their Focused Casting chain with the boss/adds under 30% and it happens to die before completing their chain, it just means they lost a couple of their lower priority spells towards the end of the chain. The difference in lost damage between both classes in that scenario is massive.

    Totem of the Hierophant VS Rod of Ruin:

    Due to the short duration we can't use our charm before starting our Fiery Blast chain and thus are forced to use it after Fiery Blast has been cast (losing precious time during the 11 second duration).

    Frigid Gift / Ice shape "makes all magic and heat spells into cold spells (elemental)" not sure if this is intentional or a bug but our mastercrafted charm seems to ignore this which forces us to modify our Fiery Blast chain spell priority from the most logical order to one that uses our lower priority magic damage spells first before using the charm and hitting our elemental spells.

    I'm not suggesting a nerf to Warlocks but a balance between how intuitive the classes are to play, Fiery Blast needs to be less prone to failure or there needs to be an improved balance to the risk vs reward when compared to Focused Casting's ease of use.

    I know the Developers have to be aware of the current imbalance, just sit in on some raids in top ten guilds with a parser running or have a look at the class forums on flames to compare some parses between the two sorcerers, the change to Focused Casting has created a massive gap between the two sorcerer's potential.
  2. Ucala Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't call it an imbalance. atleast not too much. Is warlock dps better at the moment? yes.
    but it's not like wizards are struggling to come by it as well. they are usually right behind
  3. Daray Well-Known Member

    It's funny how warlocks argued with me that the FC changes would have virtually no impact on the dps bottom line, and how they needed "so much more" to even be competitive. Ultimately, it's not just FC though - it's the cumalative effect of that with other short term temps (spellbind, charm clickies, timewarp, etc) and a right-side spec.

    However, wizards are in a pretty good place themselves atm. They benefit from much the same playstyle. Yeah, FB comes in at about half or slightly less of the value of FC, but also with half the recast time (though I guess you could say that recast time is irrelevant on the burn fights that warlocks particularly shine on).

    Perhaps I am alone in this, but I do actually kind of like the fact that good FBs need some planning to execute properly, rather than hitting it and having it directly modify everything. I suppose I wouldn't be adverse to usability improvements (like making FB insta-cast/insta-recovery to allow for better temp buff stacking).

    I suppose FB could also do with having something changed about the long list of damage exclusions - none of which are an issue for FC ... FB excludes damage from SDAs, dot ticks, damage procs, MAs, flurry, and manaburn.

    Devs have bigger priorities in the class-balance sphere anyway, like addressing the itemisation imbalance for summoners.
    Livejazz, Everdog, Venaki and 4 others like this.
  4. Wizard Member

    You're not alone, I too enjoy the challenge and the skill differences that separate a good Wizard from an average Wizard. However I feel that executing a "perfect" Fiery Blast chain is much more difficult than executing a "perfect" Focused Casting chain and at the moment the easier of the two is yielding the better reward.

    Yeah, I'm not sure the logic behind Fiery Blast not already being insta-cast/recovery. I know several of us suggested it way back in the CoE beta thread.

    Obviously I'm not expecting a complete re-vamp of either class this deep into the expansion but I feel some very subtle changes could make a world of difference.

    For the hand full of Wizards out there that this is relevant to, feel free to post some realistic suggestions for improvement.
  5. Mogrim Well-Known Member

    I'll respond to this.

    1) I was vocal because changes were needed. As things stood, warlocks were behind wizards by more than wizards are behind warlocks now.

    2) Wizards are still very strong. In fact, as gear progression continues, Wizards will be able to soak up more "left over mod" due to the fact that your spells have a stronger base value. As item growth continues, this matters.

    3) Wizards still have a better prestige right-side and better spells to feed into their "spike damage temp". It isn't that Warlocks have a better "spike damage temp". The issue is that if a fight ends up short enough, we both get our temp once, and warlocks look better. If the fight lasts just long enough for wziards to get a second FB, wizards should look better. When burn times speed up, this will favor the warlock "looking" better. It isn't a true indication of class strength.

    4) That said, I'd like you guys to have dispel immunity on FB and some sort of slight self temp buff while it is active... like +10% spell range/radius and +10% to base potency. This would give you a very slight boost but would also add to the fun factor of seeing those big FBs. The spell range just so you get more hits. Not a massive change, but just a slight boost and a nod to the fun factor.

    On top of that... I still agree with the EVENTUAL need to uncap spell double.
  6. Wizard Member

    Yeah, nothing personal the part directed at you was sarcasm but yes Warlocks were definitely behind Wizards and needed some fixes to outdated/broken abilities and spells.

    However I don't feel the previous gap between the two classes was as large as the current gap. I feel due to lack of time/resources instead of addressing all of those smaller issues you and others pointed out the developers went with an easier solution and just made Focused Casting so powerful everyone would forget about the other issues.

    I'm not sure I agree with the first part but you're definitely right about fight length being a huge factor in who looks cooler on the parse. However looking cool on the parse isn't really my point. My main point is more about risk/effort vs reward when comparing the difficulty of executing a "perfect" Fiery Blast chain vs a Focused Casting chain.

    This is the main issue with the current imbalance between the two classes, all things considered a Focused Casting chain is much easier to execute consistently and yields better results having a much greater "Damage Potential" there is really no disputing this if you have a parser and a basic understanding of math.

    I think to solve this Fiery Blast needs to be less prone to failure and or the compensation for executing a "perfect chain" needs to be increased and again I would encourage the few Wizards out there who would be concerned with such things to post realistic suggestions for improvement in this thread and perhaps we can get some changes sooner rather than later.
    Everdog likes this.
  7. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Have FB count all damage (even including ticks from DOTs that were cast before FB) and make FB insta cast/recover and I'd be happy. It's still not going to bring wizards back in line with similarly geared warlocks on single target fights, but i'll significantly close the gap.

    Agree that summoner itemization is a bigger problem... but FB tweaks could be done fairly easily. ;)
  8. Nynaeve Active Member

    1.) I don't remember anyone crying, but you sure want to use it as an excuse to be crybaby yourself.
    2.) of "equal skill" ? how can you know that even? maybe the locks are just so much better than you and finally have similar potential instead of lesser.
    3.) a lot easier to play? man, what else? Warlocks don't have it easy at all, it's incredibly complex to get good dps out of a Warlock, and there are many ways to lose, have long casting spells end on a dead mob or the wrong mob cause the tank just switched target before it connected, time your boosters wrongly, time were you have to cast spells that don't even do damage by themselves, etc.
    this thread is ridiculous and should be closed, as it is simply a veiled attempt to call for a nerf - which is against forum rules.
    4.) if you really want to lobby Wizards you should not refer to Warlocks in nearly ever sentence and instead propose things for WIZARDS that you want...
  9. Wizard Member

    I was hoping we could keep this thread constructive and limited to people who have a clue what they're talking about but thank you for stopping by with your much appreciated input on something you clearly know less than nothing about.
  10. Ucala Well-Known Member

    I ran a few group zones on my warlock that I have never played before other than leveling to 95. has like 2 days on /played time fully on him. and missing alot of jewelry. with only 317 AA and in one of the worst possible warlock group set ups possible (swash, warlock, warlock, coercer, zerker, inq).
    and I was still pushing like 2 mil in group zones. it would be around 4 mil or so in a proper group set up. and the possible raid dps I would do would be crazy.
    so I wouldn't say warlocks are "hard to play" but I wouldn't say "easy" either. they have alot of temps that require stacking and are very buff dependent (like I said, if only I had UT and TW, but I didn't).

    also lots of warlocks were crying on the forums and have been in every possible beta forums until now for an improvement in dps
  11. Cathulhu New Member

    "Incredibly complex" is incredibly exaggerated. Most of the problems you listed are either you misplaying something very simple, or things that aren't even issues (especially you targeting the wrong mob because of the tank, or casting spells that don't do damage. I don't really understand that.) Warlocks seem like they have such a high skill floor; even if you aren't that good you'll still do okay.
  12. Avahlynn Well-Known Member

    This was fairly constructive, and then it went rather sideways.

    I don't feel any class is incredibly complex to play in game. We are humans, we invented the wheel, the car, the rocket, we are as a species pretty ok dealing with the confines of technology and rolling with it. Read about warlocks for a few days, play one for awhile, and you will likely do just fine. Same as any class group, barring maybe tanks. Tanking requires perhaps a bit more time to learn.

    I'm happy warlocks got some dev love as of late. Good. It means in a group they are that much more effective and the groups task is that much easier to accomplish. At the risk of being labeled a fan girl, I'm going to stand with Daray on the issue. I like the complexities and artistry of learning to be a better wizard. Mashing buttons has no glory to it.

    Wizards could use a few tweaks, yes. But overall I feel the class is strong, just in need of a little tlc and touching up. I'm glad this thread was started, and hope it continues.
  13. Nynaeve Active Member

    this thing wasn't constructive from the get go. even the headline is dumb.
    if you want to help Wizards, write about what you want for *your* class.
    I suggest you start over with a new thread, this one is fail.
    Montag likes this.
  14. Mystere Member

    Wow, what's this I see? Nynaeve getting multi-pwned in yet another thread? Even after posting that humorous parse that she thought was win but everyone else thought was fail, she has thick enough skin to barge her way in here and prove her true skill level and fund of knowledge in a second thread. I think she is afraid the current advantages enjoyed by warlocks over wizards (hard-won by Mogrim's unfailing efforts on the forums) will somehow become more balanced and all the bad warlocks out there will once again become unmasked.

    There is no argument amongst knowledgeable players at least that the thread title is absolutely correct as it stands; Nynaeve's comments are less than relevant here. It's not necessarily a bad thing for the time being given how crappy locks were before; they should have their time in the sun I think. BUT, I do find extremely distasteful the EQ2 way of letting a class rot for a while and then overcompensating said class with a new expac. I do not find their explanations of 'difficulty' in balancing classes to be a convincing explanation. I think they purposefully leave imbalanced various classes so that they can feature a 'flavor of the expac' type of class to generate interest in the class and change things up for variety, or something. I don't find the logic in this compelling, as I have seen people quit eq2 because of it. How many warlocks have fallen by the wayside while they were down and out, for example? IMO each expac should leave all classes as balanced as possible, so that the true skill level of the player comes out and becomes the dominant factor in who tops parses rather than dev pity (or whatever). Instead almost every expac seems to have an OPed class that causes strife, whining, and bad blood in the other classes. People quit over this stuff, but apparently SOE thinks this is a winning formula.
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  15. Daray Well-Known Member

    This may sound like a novel concept, but discussing class balance actually does involve drawing comparisons between classes. That's just the way it has to be.
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  16. Nynaeve Active Member

    Please don't write in such ghetto slang, it's disgusting to read.
    I never get owned in any thread, because I always get exactly what I want.
    Montag likes this.
  17. Nynaeve Active Member

    Stop ************! For people like you there won't ever be a class balance unless you come out on top of the parse - no matter your skill.
  18. Venaki New Member

    Hi there! Guys, if you want to have something productive for wizard class, you should stay in topic and take your personal arguments via PM. Just arguing childishly will cause the devs ignoring us. That's mostly for you, Nyna. If you don't have something productive to say rather than saying to lock this thread, please keep your fingers in your pockets. No bias here, just logic. And same for you, Mystere. I've been watching your posts long ago and I really love everything you say, but you'll do yourself a favor if you ignore the moaners. Of course is a balancing matter, but no one is blaming or saying locks are overpowered, just their FC is A LOT more reliable than FB, it's the truth and nobody can't say it isn't. (That's mostly for you, Nyna. If you don't have something productive to say rather than saying to lock this thread, please keep your fingers in your pockets. No bias here, just logic)

    About FB, I still don't know why is not affected by doublecasts and procs, and dots used before FB activated. Including all the excluded wizard spells will help FB to stay in the same dps line with locks. No nerfs, all more equal and won't be overpowered or game breaking by any manner. I can't think for a better solution about that, maybe some wizard experts in this forums will throw some light to this.
  19. Venaki New Member

    Damn, sorry for repeating the same to you, Nyna. Was early in the morning and I can't edit now. My mistake.
  20. Konc3pt Active Member

    I enjoy watching necromancers and wizards main changing to warlock.

    I also like Daray's ideas for fiery blast.

    And please fix itemization for summoners. I don't want my friend to quit. :(
    Le Clown likes this.