I don't claim to be the best warlock, I play by keybinds and the muscle memory isn't there. I've experienced at most 30 heroic zones on the character, and most error are gift of bertoxxulous related (e.g. misjudging pre-buff timing due to encounter duration estimation error). In addition, I consider it to be a "budget" character and its equipment-related assets total under 5k. However, from my experience on the character, EncDPS is in the 8~14m range with typical PUG heroic players as support. Expanding on this value with CB & P values seen in raid match the EncDPS boasted by Mogrim and this thread (albeit in my favor actually, but I'm willing to bet the difference can be accounted for in raid latency or encounter mitigation). Warlocks aren't overly complicated. Plug spells into spreadsheet -> sort by spell efficiency -> cast order -> done. If you want to be keen, plug spells into spreadsheet -> add "proc rates" (i.e. victorious concerto, peace of mind, gift of bertoxxulous, etc.) -> sort by modified spell efficiency -> cast order -> done. There are other methods, but they require the encounter to be well known (i.e. in this 5 minute 23 second encounter, timewarp will be cast at ____, VC at ____, PoM at ____, etc.) to be superior. As Priority suggested, it is likely gear. Also to my experience support is always terrible - even in raiding. Its to little surprise that Fatality has inconsistent players, and it is the primary reason I don't play DPS anymore. Its too frustrating to know the encounter and have support fail simple stuff (i.e. Turn the mob, memwipes, AE block, etc.), let alone the slightly advanced but still simple stuff (i.e. combat mastery @ 25 seconds, 1:55, and 3:25) and completely screw you over as a result. Getting upset at a support who routinely screws up is justified, but getting upset at an alt who is there because the screw-up didn't show up isn't.
i just find it hard to believe when NO changes where made and after a patch my dps along with a few others droped at all the sudden. as for trying to compare apples to oranges, Mogrim is beast mode anyways, i can only dream of hitting 90k ability mod and throw extra's down, like i said in my oringinal post...NOTHING changed to gear or group setup just a patch for the pet class's. im thinking something they did effected the way some of our spells work. but if no one else is expearancing issues then i guess it has something to do with my character itself being broken or something that im wearing that is. time to break down and try to find out what isn't working...
I didn't notice anything at the beginning of the month, the past week though I have noticed a decrease, especially tonight. No rhyme or reason as to why but on groups I was roughly 10-15 mil lower on my parses than normal. Same exact group setup, nothing different, negative void off, same casting order I normally do. Group of 6 in Ossuary for example, lined up perfect for me, struggled to hit 25 mil and normally will hit around 40. If it was a couple fights, would have shrugged it off, but it was entire night of this so either something changed from server side, PC side or something else, open to suggestions for possibilities as to why it happened this evening.
Well i am no where near the lock that mogrim is, but i do know every spell to the teeth and know what each one does. i also know the cast times and when they come back up without even thinking about it most of the time. I also know what i need to do if i get that stiffle ect.. that just kills my dps and most of the time no how to pick up without major drops. I have developed my own ways around some encounters as well to get back up in the parse when things don't seem to be working out. (illy keeps dying, missed cure stun ect..) but even on Smooth fights sometimes my spells just will not hit the other day i hit 2 mythical hits for a few thousand? ....that just wasn't right considering the spell usually hits base dmg 10x's harder. Also i hit plaguebringer that normally hits around 8-9 mil with my current stats. it was hitting really low around 2-4 mil variances. Just random odd things that do not make much sense. Im still looking to see if maybe something proc'ing is overwriting or canceling out my boosters, figure it may be a bug. I have been watching my stats. im sitting on 1k CB and Potency with just under 70k AM and when i stack my boosts for TimeWarp i jump up to Just under the edge of 2k (pot &CB) but my spells i burn off just don't seem to be effected much by it , especially my increments, the tool tip changes but damage always hits on the less than what it says.
bug report it, your character data could have been corrupted in the process of database conversion that took place.
Hi Cleaner, I have been following this thread with interest. My main is a warlock and over the last couple of months I have noticed a similar pattern of events. I don't raid so all my comments and observations relate to top tier heroic content. I am in a small guild that runs multiple heroic zones everyday and our groups are generally drawn from the same pool of 10 -15 people. Our groups rarely have the perfect combination of classes and we try to accommodate whoever is online at the time. Until recently (ie throughtout ToV and for most of AoM) my warlock was almost always very close to or at the top of the parse but this is no longer the case. I can still do decent DPS sometimes but the big numbers seem to be highly dependant on a number of factors that are largely outside my direct control (the pacing and size of pulls by the tank have a massive influence on my DPS for example). I have recently resurrected an Assassin alt and (with similar quality gear to my warlock but far fewer Masters) my zone wide DPS is generally at least 50% higher and, frankly, with considerably less effort. My conclusion is that over time all classes ebb and flow. Warlocks have had a good run for a long time now and it is only fair that other classes get a shot at it for a while. Having put so much effort into my Warlock this notion did sting a bit at first but, on the positive side, it also kick-started me into playing other classes and this has been (and continues to be) a lot of fun. All that said the whole archetype class balance does seem to be a bit out of whack nowadays. As an 'old school' MMO'er it always seemed right to me that Mages ought to be the highest DPS'ers but balanced by being extremely vulnerable & squishy. At the other end of the spectrum tanks should be very durable, with high survivability but low DPS. These conventions no longer apply and so the old balance of 'risk versus reward' has changed greatly.
I am not sure exactly whats making ppl say that warlocks are getting worse I mean there hasn't been any nerfs that I know of and itemization strongly favours warlocks atm. Sorcs are more dependent on the grp setup then most other classes tho that's for sure. Big pulls favour us becuz we have strong blues but we also generate increments faster in AoE. Increments is the most annoying factor of the sorcerer and it is also what makes warlocks weak in weaker grps. A tank who looses aggro and lets you die a lot thereby loosing your increments and your spike with it will destroy your dps. What we would need is a better left side prestige without the horrible increments. Warlocks are still very strong, just a frustrating class Imo
Our warlock parsed under 100m yesterday (96m) and only beat the assassin by 10m. This is much lower and closer than in recent weeks. clearly the class needs a buff. I'm sure Mogrim can pop in and explain exactly how warlocks should be improved at this point in time - perhaps warlocks should be able to use poisons?
I'm all for it j/k Really though, every time someone suggests there are issues with Warlocks... folks in Fatality come back with "Mogrim". Warlocks aren't having trouble - see Mogrim. Mogrim did 100 million DPS, Mogrim beats everyone by 2340972309480 million dps... If we tuned the entire class's DPS to Mogrim's skill level, 80% of the warlocks playing would find themselves at the bottom of the parse, and quit. Tharrakor has a point - it IS a frustrating class to play. I don't know how many times I've had 180 up and all temps running and before I can even START my FC chain, the tank loses control of a few mobs and boom, I'm dead. I'm thinking, yeah... this is gonna be a 100 million DPS moment... I start to get all exicted... then I see floor... and my increments are wasted. We are a burst DPS class. If we lose the burst opportunity, it's hard to come back. IMHO, I find the increment system to be exhausting, and I can usually only play my warlock for about 2 hours max before I need a mental break. You don't know how refreshing it is when I get to play my necro and I'm like...I can just start doing damage off the bat? Wheee!!
This is consistent with my experience. The good warlocks (and sins) are still throwing down amazing parses; 40-60mm heroic, 60-90mm raid with right set-ups and encounters. I have also noticed a large surge in the number of sins, locks, and conj's running around lately; and concurrently, a surge in the number of poorly played sins, locks, and conji's running around
I've always considered the instant cast AE -2 positions detaunt to be an "easy mode" button. Not that it is necessary with the mythical detaunt proc./minitransfer, but it is amusing that the tool exists to begin with. I suppose it is lackluster in comparison to summoner threat tools (-24 positions!...shared hate gain!), but the combination of an instant cast/non-targeted detaunt and the range of the class ensures that you're effectively "unkillable" provided sufficient situational awareness and reaction time. *disclaimer* I am a terrible warlock. I have played maybe 20 heroic zones total, so while I'm great at math and know what to cast my muscle memory simply isn't there. Additionally since these are PUGs, the encounter duration is effectively "unknown" and I cannot project an ideal cast rotation prior to the encounter nor am I able to coordinate group temps effectively. Still 14~20m zonewide & 20-40m+ encounters are easily possible in adv. solo gear & MC weapons in a heroic pug setting. I imagine players who are not limited by faulty muscle memory, know the encounter duration, adv. solo gear, and can coordinate temps will be much higher. For comparison, a raid geared ranger (mythical shield, hempen halter, salvo, standard stuff) who did coordinate combat mastery in one of these PUGs beat my adv. solo geared warlock that I suck at playing by 800k on the zonewide. So I don't understand the "omg warlocks need baffs" mindset. Damage is great (high, bursty), reliability is wonderful (ranged, versatile, positionals), and utility is amazing (temps, buffs, transfer, cure, p.feed).
One minor clarification. The AOE positional de-aggro has a few quirks. 1) It is target-based AOE. Aka, you must have a target and line of sight. 2) It has very large range, so you might end up pulling everything w/in 2 floors on accident, causing much rage. 3) It has a fairly poor resist rate, so it isn't foolproof.
Yeah, the word 'frustrating' pretty much sums up the class. Don't get me wrong, I really do love my Warlock, but it only takes one thing to go wrong and you are then pretty much screwed for the next 90 seconds waiting for spell timers to refresh etc. etc. I also think that we need to draw a big distinction between playing a warlock in a top end raid situation (where class mix, buffs and timings & so on can be optimized) and playing one in a 'normal' heroic non-optimized guild group. It is in the latter situation where the difficulties & frustrations arise. It also strikes me that Warlocks haven't got worse as such but several other classes have made significant strides forward and comparatively warlocks (in everyday heroic groups) are struggling to keep up.
I've tried to say this many times, but I think the best way to parse it out is like this. If you're a Warlock and.... If you and your friends are all middle-or-a-little-lower-of-the-pack players, you're going to have a bad day. If you and your friends are all in top half range (say top 40%) or players, you're not impressing anyone, but not embarrassing yourself either. . If you and your friends are all top 25%-ers, you're doing ok, but you're not close to the Predators. If you and your friends are all about top 10% range, you're still behind the Predators. If you and your friends are all in that top 5% to top 10 people overall range, *******it would seem******** that you'd start coming out on top pretty reliably. Disclaimer: Essentially, the belief that Warlocks are extremely OP is based on a very small sample size where it is hard to determine if all parts/utility/groupmakeup/style of contect effect/itemization impact/player skill are equal. Sure, I can do it... but can you? Can others? All things equal, given an equally skilled/geared/supported Warlock and Assassin, the Assassin will win 19 times out of 20. The 5% outlier here is either an indication of an extremely hard to reach ceiling for the Warlock class, or is a personal outlier than only a few have achieved.
I fall somewhere in the 10 - 20% range. Probably closer to 20% than 10%. I tend to outparse one of our assassins regularly, but nobody outparses the other (Bord..!!! *said like Jerry Seinfeld says Newman*). Well, I DID beat him on a HUGE pull the other night in raid, but I had to parse 80 million to do it. And to parse 80 million, for me, means the sun, the moon, and all the stars have to align just perfectly. And I think he might have been eating pizza...
I get where you're coming from. But here's the thing. What better level is there to compare at? Would you agree that Mogrim has the best gear, the best group setup and best opportunity to parse high as a Warlock? I mean, maybe "best" is not 100% theoretical ideal, but it's as close as anyone else. To compare, you need to get another DPS class who has the best group setup and the best gear to parse high as whatever class they are. My argument is that your best bet for a comparison of "equals" is by comparing Mogrim to the other DPS'ers in his raid. They have the same gear access, same benefit of a high parsing raid - leaving skill as the only deciding factor, although for any top 5-10 guild, you have to assume that decent skill is invoolved in the DPS classes, otherwise they wouldn't be in the guild. You really can't do a good comparison of a warlock with "random middle-of-the-road gear" and inconsistent group setup to an assassin (or any other class) with a whole different set of "random middle-of-the-road gear" and a differently inconsistent group setup. There are just to many variables. You either have to compare naked - which is useless given how much gear impacts gameplay. Or you have to compare "at max potential". I think i parsed like 16m on my warlock once. My highest parse on a named fight as a Defiler is 19.5m. Does this mean warlocks are terrible? It's not a good comparison - because i have random gear and mediocre level of skill/experience as a warlock. The only way to compare is to give someone everything they possible need to max out and compare them to someone else that has all those things. And in those comparisons, Warlocks seem to be come out quite well.
Every parse I can find from last night of Mogrim doing 90+ million for the duration, he beat the assassin by at least 40 million dps. Granted, that only happanes on large AE pulls, he still wins the majority of single target fights. Between the 2 classes, a bad assassin will beat a bad warlock; a good assassin in decent gear will probably beat a good warlock in good gear, the games best warlock in nearly BIS gear will not only beat, but destroy any assassin in upper tier gear.
not that it at all matters, it just happened to be the one parse i remembered numbers from... but it was one of the latter named in RC, Mogrim was 96 and assassin was i think 85... it was a totally random example to bring up though, i just happened to think of it.
