Ward of Elements needs to be toned WAY DOWN!

I expect to see the normal flames and "L2P" stuff that comes from most of the vocal folks on these boards but I would also appreciate seeing honest feedback from similar players such as myself on this issue and maybe even a dev response that this is NOT intended game play for this first and publicly stated intended purpose raid zone of "casual raiders with fabled epics and void shard armor".
First I would like to give the scenario of last night (very briefly) and then i will tell you our set up:
We did not get past the first static spawn group of 4 linked mobs in the right hand hallway that leads down to the first and easiest named. It is the 4 linked mobs where 2 are visible and 2 are not outside of aggro range.
There is one roaming mobs that we did kill before attempting that static group and then there is another roaming mob in that side hall which we were able to NOT aggro on many of our attempts to take down that static group.
This was NOT our first trip to Ward of Elements and we have been successful in taking down the first 2 nameds previously but couldn't even attempt the third named on our maiden trip in because we couldn't even survive the trash mobs at the door of that room.
Now our setup:
80 Guardian with 8870ish constant mitigation, 12700ish constant avoidance and 10,700 ish mitigation for 30 seconds with pull buffs. Fabled Epic, fully adorned, almost fully mastered, full tier 2 void shard armor, full tier 2 void shard jewelry.
Everyone was level 80 (of course) - main group had guard, temp, dirge, swash, fury, wizard / second group had conj, illy, wizard, fury, warden, and another class (can't remember - didn't commit it to memory since I didn't know at the time I was going to write this post)
Most of the 12 folks had their fabled epics and most have full tier 2 if not a smattering of Tier 1 and Tier 2 and everyone is at least adept 3s in spell level.
What happened, repeatedly: (the first roaming mob is already dead and not an issue at this point)
First pull was a body pull (worked the first time we were here). Guard put on every temp buff they have, get pre-warded, pre-healed etc.... Just a plain body pull since on the first pull we were not sure where the 2nd roamer was on his path.
As soon as all 4 mobs were visible and reasonably clear (barely around the corner) of social aggro of the 2nd roamer I was going to try and use any and all taunts I had.
I pull, I immediately get stunned or stifled or something that didn't allow me to cast. The 4 mobs run straight to all the healers that had pre-warded/healed me and "one shotted" them (not really one shotted but when you can smashed with so much damage so fast it might has been a one shot - you can't tell the difference since there is NOTHING you can do with it happens instantaneously). Then they ran right back to me since I can now finally cast a taunt and they basically one shot me. (the hit me for 2,500 to 4,000 crushing non-critical damage each and that is with the mentioned mitigation and avoidance above)
Second pull someone had the brainwave of a pet pull. Ok, lets try that.
Conjurer sends in pet, it gets one shotted. Mobs run toward the group, I fire off my fast group taunt which ALL FOUR of the mobs completely ignore somehow and one shot the conjurer and then come to me next and one shot me. Wipe #2 happens.
Third pull, we decide that losing the conjurer pet so fast is a bad thing and try a pet pull with a Templar hammer. Same thing as the second pull but the templar dies first this time.
Fourth pull, I get within casting range for my fast green encounter taunt but just out of aggro range.
Everyone groups up semi-close just behind that and the plan was for me to start with an encounter taunt to try and get them to all come at me first and stop one shotting the non-tanks.
Buffs up, pre-heals, etc... (btw...NO WAY is it possible to no pre-heal - we discovered that on the first trip here) - I cast the encounter taunt - since I am only line of sight on 2 of the 4 mobs, the first 2 come at me the second two go after the rest of the raid. This scenario gave us just enough time for the Illy to stun/mez/etc... for us to actually have a chance at this kill BUT....
since we can pull them back very far without a one shot and we were fight so close to the stairs you can guess what happened.
The 2nd roamer strolled close enough and joined in. We had it down to the last of 4 mobs when that happened and we wiped.
We left in complete and utter disgust after that.
This raid is TOO HARD. Last night was the FIRST TIME since I started playing EQ2 on Nov. 9, 2004 with my main character Allurana which is still my main character that I had considered cancelling all FOUR of my paid subscriptions and never coming back.
I lived through LU13 and actually liked it, name all the guardians changes over the years and actually liked them all EXCEPT the massive nerf we took with TSO expansion came out and the promise we would be fixed with a fighter revamp 2.0 "soon" - it has been half a year already - give me back my dps if you won't make my taunts work and then you design C R A P content like this that you label to be usable by people EXACTLY geared and playstyle like me.
We do not have our mythicals, we do not raid every other night and have a well oiled and polished raid force with ever min/maxed spell/potion/charm/etc...
SUGGESTIONS:
1. Make my taunts work - triple their taunt numbers currently on them for a quick fix or make the mobs actually have taunt do something like being unresistable COMPLETELY.
OR
2. Make mitigation actually mean something - I parsed last night. I was getting hit for 2,500 ish to mid 4,000 ish in damage PER HIT fast and furiously by those 4 mobs and NONE of the hits were criticals - (I have 13% crif mitigation from the tier 2 void armor I think). I think I have over 70% mitigation and well over 70% avoidance when I am pulling SHOULD I REALLY BE TAKING THAT MUCH NON-CRITICAL DAMAGE???? 4 mobs hit so fast and so hard NO ONE has a chance to do anything at all - I literall drop like I have been one shotted.
Last night was categorically and undeniably UNFUN. Get a grip SOE with this raid design b.s. you are putting in the heroic level game and now the new x2 raid game that you claim is for us "lesser folks".
I have 78 paid accounts in my guild and they are all of a very similar mindset to mine. We enjoy the heroic game and only dabble in the raid game that is actually reasonably doable by us (typically one tier back - we raid KOS often now - we have cleared Labs, AoA, Lyceum, almost all of Halls of Seeing - before that we did Godking when level 70 was max - did Darathir when level 60 was max and we will probably do VP when level 90 is max).
Please either adjust this current content OR be honest and realistic as to the audience and the players that you ACTUALLY designed it for which is obviously the high end mythical raiders that "needed" a smaller raid zone to occupy them when they only have 12 folks available.

Allurana wrote:

Again like at the beginning.. you get good stuff out of there so it is just unrealistic to make that zone even more easier.

Allurana wrote:

Unless that last class was a crusader or bezerker, you have no chance of clearing this zone in your gear with this raid setup. That is your first problem.
With the pull in question, both body pulling and pet pulling are asking for trouble. The fact that these are the only two pulls you tried, and the fact that you gave up after 4 pulls, tells me even more than you intended your post to.
What you should have done is single target taunt pulled the encounter, telling youra raid to not AE anything for about 6 seconds. 2 seconds after the initial taunt, you hit Reinforcement, wait for the 4 mobs to be in melee range, and then use your 2 (3 if you are of an appropriate race) damage AEs.
The fact that you had no shaman is another sevre factor in lack of success. Wards are essential for raids, and Repent just doesn't cut it.
This is a raid zone, first and foremost. Don't attempt it in your gear without wards, and don't expect to clear it without a tank that can hold GOOD AE hate.

First, you had at least 3 healers in raid. Tell the one not from mt grp to quit /autofollow and start curing the mt on pull. Second, look, the mob did stun you? WTF are you waiting for to use your freedom of mind or city merchant insignia/token/whatever they are called in english for 1,5 min stun immunity? Third, quit using taunts on pulls once and forever, use your AE combat arts or something that doesnt get resisted 4 times in a row on a debuffed mob. Next, ths:

Isn't gonna kill a mastercrafted tank w/o adorments. What's your uncontested avoidance? Did you try equipping the shield? You had a templar in grp, so his pre-heal is something between 8 and 25k, which should last long enough for the druids to catch up with healing. Overall your problem seems to be the lack of pulling experience, we did the zone with our alts with just t2-or-so gear with 2 healers (one being a heal-specced pally) and it's cake, especially after the last boss was nerfed.

So far I appreciate the constructive feedback, I do have a question though.
Do you all consider these to be reasonable suggestions and expectations of game play for the FIRST TRASH mobs of a 12 person zone?
So far the suggestions are things like having a more "perfect" set of classes - why? we had heals, tanks, a control and dps - why does it have to be a very granular specific flavor of those things? Those are rhetorical for SOE, I know the real answer it is because that "is the way it is right now".
Suggestion is pull with CA instead of taunt, ok - I can try that.
We were successful the first time, I believe, because we had 2 illys on our first run and they ended up spamming stuns and mezs and all their things they can do. This time 1 Illy and we would wipe in about 3 seconds flat each time.
I can accept constructive "L2P" suggestions such as these but I would also like to see SOE either adjust this crazy, stupid zone that is just like KC during Kunark beta OR re-advertise the zone as to the proper gear/level and expectations are needed BEFORE folks should think about trying it.
It is my opinion, yes - opinion, that game play that forces granular specific classes as well as potions/insignias/immunities are NOT in-line with past precendents in heroic content or any heroic level previous to this zone AS WELL AS the ONLY other x2 raid zones in the ENTIRE game which are the city guild writ raids which we are masters of and hold most of the server discoveries for all the loot in those raids.
We are not bad players or need to "L2P" our classes, we just are NOT raiders in the traditional raiding game. There is NO progression from heroic to raiding and this zone only proves it that much more.
The current state of this game is that you have a solo game which is approachable and easy to learn, you then progress to a heroic game which is ALMOST EXACTLY like the solo game but with harder mobs and the requirement to work with other characters to beat down the huge HPs.
Then there is this leap to raiding which you then basically have to re-learn how to play the game entirely, nothing is intuitive, you need 6 sets of gear, a bunch of other things like potions and insignias that you never needed before and you now have to start excluding your friends and such because they are not fitting the exact min/max mold needed to take down Mob X in Zone Y but stay close by though since we need to switch to ranged/jousting for the next named around the corner.
That unrealistic and unmanageble leap of game design and game play is what I have issue with.
The issue is NOT that it exists, I am fine with the raid game being what it is and I am glad that many folks enjoy it.
My issue is that SOE advertised this new content x2 size raid zone that they have NOT introduced since the city guild raids which were put in like 4 years ago now. Really 4 YEARS we have been waiting for our next end game content and Ward of Elements was labeled as that for us.
Non-mythical and tier 2 void shard armor - check. We have that. We have raided ALL the x2 raid content in this game and MASTERED IT. We are competent heroic content players, we have played most of it and mastered most of it.
OUR next step of PROGRESSION in this game is Ward of Elements. That is OUR end game AND it was advertised as such.
That is my issue. Keep the rest of the game as is. You enjoy your parts, we are enjoying ours. But don't lie to us that you are finally releasing new endgame content for us and then it just be a 12 person version of the ridiculous raid game we can't and WON'T be a part of.

Allurana wrote:

First off not taking a shaman to a raid zone, even if it is a x2, is silly. Wards + reactives first; druids if you have nothing else. Druids are pretty much terrible.
Second, the way you build groups makes no sense. Why put a wizard in the MT group over a coercer?
Third... you quit the zone after four pulls? Uh... this would be the primary reason behind people's failures.
Anyway, continuing on; you keep comparing this zone to the city writ TRAINING raids. The WoE isn't a training raid and it drops amazing gear for a x2. The best gear you can get in this game w/o raiding x4 zones. Also, its kind of hard for me to believe that you have all of these raids MASTERED when according to your post you haven't even cleared Halls of Seeing yet? Just saying.
You complaining about actually needing an adequate raid setup is silly. So are your gasps of OMG I SHOULD USE A POTION OR A SIGNET, WHY FOR. Why? Because that is what good players do. They use everything available to them in order to succeed. Go figure.
This so called "leap" in gameplay isn't unrealistic or unmanageable - plenty of players on every server do it every single day. If its not something you are willing to do, then don't raid the zone. If you want the gear from the zone, then adjust your playstyle to acquire it. If not, continue raiding KoS content for your fabled loots.
WoE was never advertised as a "casual raid zone for guilds almost clearing KoS x4 raids who are unwilling to change their raid setup, use potions and signets and try more than four pulls in order to devise a strategy. All those raiders out there clearing the city TRAINING raids come blow right through WoE first time in without a shaman while using a wizard in the MT group!" If it was I never saw it.

couple of words for you on your pulls, have the templar use Sanctuary. no more stuns, no more stifles, get ya some agro.

Edit: the one thing I will say about this zone is the ae's from the trash is rediculous. even if you do range it or have the mt just run and turn the mobs, if someone gets hit by it and isn't fast enough to cure, they are dead. the ae's tick for way to much damage per tick. this is not a good way to get people to learn how to raid, it will frustrate them and you will end up with people like the OP.

Those mobs will, on pull, cast an aoe target lock on the nearest 4 or so people in the raid, locking those people onto the mob that cast it, annoying for the tank when trying to get aggro but will wipe the raid if it is on the healers for any length of time.
One of the MT healers absolutely must cast an aoe cure to get everyone free'd up again, a healer targetting the wrong thing on the pull is a bad thing mmkay.
Body pull them, no need to pet pull, a pet pull risks social aggro just as much as a bow pull or taunt pull in this instance, body pull the mobs, you can delay a couple of seconds then aoe taunt, aggro should not be a problem (unless the dps launch off into aoes before you have them under control) and the wanderer shouldn't be a problem.
And I have to echo the other posters here and recommend that you bring a shaman for the MT group, wards are better than all other heal types put together.

Curing is just very important, no more stuns stifles then either. Last raid I did we didn't have a templar. We are fully mythed and raid geared tho. We went in with Guard, Coercer, Mystic, Warden, Swashy, Dirge (mt group) and Illy, wiz, troub, mystic, fury, necro. I was on my alt mystic in MT group. We cleared it fine in 2 - 2 and a half hours and did just fine. Everybody had raid experience tho. I will say that Noaani's advice is spot on, Taunts get resisted too much to be effective on a pull, and you do need to let people know to hold off on anything til you get aggro. And it is a raid you do require a certain setup. Just like some heroic zones go better with certain setups. You can't just ignore that and expect it to be equal.

as stated above, a shammy is almost a must for any raid x2 or x4. replace the druid in group 1 with a defiler or mystic. also get one of your healers to cure people .
you wont get far without a off tank in group 2.
the zone dont need toned down. we are on a pvp server so we 2 years behind you and we clearing to aiden, and the library. cant seem to find a solid strat for aiden. and cant figure a way to single pull the groups of mobs in the library yet...
its meant to be hard. the gear is comparable to VP , and for some classes its better. if it was toned down it would be too easy. also on the pull have your squishy's stand waaay back or they will most likley be 1 shoted

Gimbel@Permafrost wrote:

How many times does this have to be said: Interrupt the AOEs. Last time I was in the zone the raid was hit by 2 aoes, once because of a line of sight issue and once because I was noob and forgot to hit my interrupts
Nearly every class have a fast recasting interrupt ability. Use them and the trash mobs become very easy. As a guard I have two, my primary single target taunt and my kick line, between them I can almost 100% guarantee that the AoEs wont hit (unless I make a stupid mistake). I know not all tanks have 2 interrupts, but I know that chanters have fast casting interrupts coming out of their noses, and most scouts can do something similar.

As far as i know you can't single pull the books, they all come no matter what, you have to have aoe aggro like crazy. Two tanks is how we do it. They all come together and there are 3 waves. And the gear is vastly superior to VP due to crit mit being on it.

@op pls take these advices serious and try it again. This raidzone is not meant to be a training zone where you get smashed with comparable/better loot than VP. You have to figure things out and.. if you loose aggro in a groupzone or KoS... no one will die, in T8 raidzones and this one they will. You don't even need to buy signets.. you can use your classes.
Groupsetup... I wrote some, others wrote some.. defiler/mystic and coercer so you have a tank, dirge, swasbuckler, templer and those two for mt, ot is illu, truba and what you wanne fill in... . Why do you think that people are crying that their classes have no utilities in raid? exactly because of this. If a raidzone is easy, you can setup your groups like you want so other classes will kept out because you don't need them. In WoE you need your key classes to success, this does not mean that you can't go in with your friends, this just mean someone can't take his main in there.

Timetraveling and I have no plans to make this zone any easier, we feel that the challenge vs reward is about right. If there is anything you feel that is a flat out bug and needs to be fixed, please feel free to PM either him or me and we'll look into it ASAP.
In other news, we have another x2 coming soon, that will be a tad more... challenging.

Kander wrote:

Sounds awesome can't wait for it.

to the OP:
doesn't sound like you haven't tried anything that you shouldn't have but you aren't remembering that the issue may not even be related to you. the problem is your healer. tell him/her to spam cure on you as you are body pulling, find one that is better or drop in a shaman into your group and drop the wizard. if you feel you shouldn't have to move people around then you really need to push your healer to remember that the cure button is there for a reason and it is one of their most IMPORTANT buttons in TSO.
if you feel you shouldn't need a more optimal group to succeed then i can only say to you: no, there is absolutely no issue with the difficulty of the zone, no more than palace of ferzuhl is for non raid geared players.

Your group make ups are completely horrid imo. Putting 2 druids in same group nets you nothing in return. I am a guard and have solo tanked this zone with no issues, but yet again I prob have much better gear and people around me then you.
Now the one thing I can suggest is stop relying on taunts to manage your agro. Get your Double Attack and Melee Crit up. Also increase your Slahing ability. This will help you generate more agro then any taunt will for you. Never ever body pull if you are getting pre-healed/warded, you are asking to get your healers killed. Orange con mobs will almost 99.9% of the time resist a taunt on pull because they are not debuffed. Start off with Decimate on every pull you can follwed by Accelerated Strike then Seige(for multi mob encounters). Use Sentry Watch on pull, pre pull, this can save your healers in your group. Use Intercede if the pull goes bad, rescue even. Reinforcement should be used often, recast timers on rescue and reinforcement should be roughly 2-3mins(depending on your AA spec).
make sure healers are curing the detrimentals asap, especially near the water djinn, on pull those trash mobs will AoE a elemental that will drop almost anyone. Keep the rest of the raid 20m behind until pull is stabilized, MT group should be able to handle this AoE on pull.
Now your group make ups need help:
MT group:
Any Plate tank, any cleric(with max shield ally), any shamen, dirge, any chanter, any other(doesnt matter imo)
Other group:
Druid, and either a shammy or cleric, troub, wizzy/warlock, brigand, ranger,etc...
I have also done this zone on my dirge with lesser geared tank solo tanking this zone. This zone is really not too tough after you get to know it. Learn the zone, bang your head against a mob or encounter until you know it inside and out. It is practice. For my guild to take down some of the raid mobs we could put 25-40hrs over a couple weeks time just learning every aspect of the encounter, including AoEs, resists needed, when to joust or cure what. That is why it is x2 raiding and not a simple group instance instance.

Kander wrote:

OOOO perhaps it's a certain tower in field of bone? *looks hopeful*

Nothing wrong with using druids as healers, but in this zone you also most defiinitely need plate and chain healers. I have had the great pleasure of taking a warden into this zone on test copy when they were first working on it. I refuse to even try to take my non fully T2 geared warden on live into this zone unless she is respecced from melee warden to healer warden and has her miracles/blessings up as well as potions for self cures so she can keep focused on MT.
This zone is for casual raiders that are willing to learn new tricks. Although if you come from a raiding background that is a big plus if you ask me. But for casual raiders, keep trying. I think in the end you will be very happy.
Remember, any time a new zone comes to the game, it is a good day to die.

Allurana wrote:

If you look for developer posts on the zone, you will find out fairly quickly that the zone is intended for players at the end of TSO heroic progression.
The statement was along the lines of if you don't have full T2 shard armour, the best of the jewelery from TSO zones, your fabled epic and 180 achievements (or better, in any of the above), then you simply don't belong in WoE. The understanding that it is a raid zone and that players need to use raid tactics should not need explaining.
if you are serious about wanting to run this zone in a successful manner, someone needs to learn how to set up a raid, including what classes need to be bought and for what reasons (hint, shamans are important for a raid for reasons other than wards!).
The zone is not "hard", but it is definatly a raid zone. Going in to it with the same mentality you would take into any of the TSO heroic instances (save maybe PoF and Guk outer) is just asking for trouble.