I didn't read his post the same way you did. I took his post simply to say that if you use Open Wounds with Rampage, then Rampage will hit any encounter hit with Open Wounds. Which is true. I didn't take from his post he was implying that the 10 swings would be applied to each encounter and result in any scaling in that regard. You are correct, Rampage gives 10 swings, period, regardless if those ten hits are against mobs in one encounter or in multiple encounters. But to get back onto the track of the thread, my contention is that Fury is being scaled down to due to it being a proc, and how it interacts with Open Wounds/Rampage. Against say an encounter of 5 mobs, with Rampage and Open Wound up at the same time, you are talking about swinging 10 times in a single melee round, with Fury having a chance to proc on each of those swings. Limiting the number of mobs Fury will land on will limit the scaling effect somewhat.
Heh, you can't spell without thinking about it or looking it up. You don't just suddenly flip a switch and start spelling like an idiot. You can either spell or you can't. It's not like you're saving a lot of time with all your misspellings, so you must be saving on what little brainpower you have.
ok guys after reading the debate you guys are having i have some points. #1 you guys are talking about aggro control in exp group-type encounters. Thats fun and all but once you hit 60 the time for that is over and you have to look at raiding. With our damage being nerfed, crappy group buffs (no group health buff, crappy 30 second mit buff, underpowered 55 group health in combat) combined with guardians being much better raid tanks we will have little to no place in a raid, unless of course the guardian calls in sick. The only thing that keeps us in a raid atm when not tanking is the ability to intercept damage and lead the melee aoe dps groups. #2 With our aoe damage being nerfed we lose that valuable zerker commodity, along with war call line being nerfed to only give grp members berserk proc when mob dies we can easily be replaced by numerous other classes in raids very easily. Not to mention theres many other types of tanks in the raids with tons more utility (paladins, bruisers etc). #3 people keep saying guardians need flavor, they are in need of an upgrade.I truly dont see how this is possible. They have very good raid buffs (hp and mit i believe) and even though soe states that every tank class will now be better against certain types of mobs guardians are still light years ahead of zerkers when it comes to raid tanking. More hp by almost 1k and higher mit, better raid grp buffs. Tell me how they need lovin and we need nerfing? Why nerf our damage? People only see when zerkers stack open wounds and rampage and see EXP grp mobs i repeat EXP grp mobs die quickly. First off, we can only do that every 3 minutes. Secondly, if a zerker decides to stack those 2 then guess what...our dps sucks without it. Lower the fury line and it only adds to the demise of this class. Say all you want how we are good and the changes wont hurt us. Ive raid tanked for my guild for over a month, waiting on our guardian to hit 60 and guess what, I'll prolly never be able to tank again and to be honest, since i'm always up for our guild having its best chance to win, I will voluntarily remove myself from raids for the other 20+ classes that are better in raids. Have fun with denial Stink 60 zerker No Debt
Exactally my point Tuddar, well observed my friend. Pin that video you took proves nothing but you have no idea how to place mobs so that they are all with in a 180 degree frontal arc in front of you. Open wounds will and i have seen this from not only 1 but 2 lvl 60 Berserkers on raids purposely postion multiple encounters for this specific reason, i talk with them in Ventrilo voice chat program while we are raiding. So reguardless of my level, im fully aware of how the skill works, not sure why your so lazy and cant postion the mobs in the 180 degree frontal arc that Open Wounds is intended for, like the video proves, when you fired open wounds you were completely surrounded by mobs with only 4 in front of you at any given time, sometimes even less. Then you all you do is target the next one that is fighting you and procedd to kill it with out trying to even remotely bunch them up in front of you..........:smileyindifferent:
Dude, as a 60 Zerker I tank all the raids I attend. I think that will change as we do have a 60 guardian and other tanks coming up the ranks fast and other folks start wanting to tank. However, Berserker's are capable of tanking any mob in the game. In addition, Zerker's just plain generate more aggro. And in some situations (actually most) keeping aggro is the key to a win, not absorbing the most damage. If aggro isn't an issue and you need the best mitigation, go with a Guardian. If aggro is an issue, then a Zerker is a better choice. Guardians light years away better at raid tanking? No. Again, it's all situational, with some tank classes being better able to handle certain encounters then others, but most being able to get the job done in most encounters. That crappy 30 second mitigation buff your talking about? Guardians have basically the same thing. Zerker and Guardian group mitigation buffs are roughly the same, Guardian of course being a little better. However, each provides additional protection against certain damage types. Zerker's mitigation buff provides additional mitigation against crushing, while Guardians provide additional mitigation against slash and pierce. Guardians don't have a permanent "on" group mitigation buff. They do have a group defensive buff that adds a little to the groups avoidance. The mitigation buff they rely on is a self only buff that roots them. Ask any Guardian, their group buffs are crap, because if a Guardian is doing their job, those buffs don't help the group. No group health buff? That 55 HP regen might not seem like much, but over the long run, it saves mana a lot more then an extra 1k tacked on to everyone. Plus 41 HP regen from Boil Blood. Over a minute, that regens 960HP on me. So it's a trade-off of sorts, each has it's advantages and disadvantages. So yeah, Guardians get some buffs that gives them the edge on tanking, rightfully so. But if you compare skills between the two classes, Zerkers come out ahead in both aggro generation capabilities and DPS at the cost of not taking a hit as well. Guardians take hits better, but don't dish out aggro as well and nowhere near our DPS capabilities, which generates additional aggro as well. If your guild bumps you from the MT spot just because they want a Guardian tanking everything, then they are only hurting themselves. Guardians aren't the answer to every tanking situation, and if your guild limits itself in that way, then your chances to win over the long run will go down, not up. As with many things in life, you want to use the *best* tool for the job to have the most favorable outcome. When you need a hammer, using a wrench might not get the job done. Edit: Spelling Message Edited by Tuddar on 11-08-2005 12:15 AM
Had a lot to say so couldnt get in with 1 post. Yes Tuddar we do have dps over guardians, but that little bit of dps isnt gonna be much of anything in a raid, especially once the new changes go into affect. If we gotta rely on that little bit of aggro caused by our soon to be nerfed dps to make us a viable choice in raids then guess what, we're screwed. The biggest thing between guards and zerkers besides the close to 1k extra hp and more mitigation is their avoidance. It's about 4-5% higher than ours. So what you're saying is we are viable because we do a little more dps, but have less hp, mit and avoidance. Sounds like a 2nd rate tank to me. About the 55 in combat health regen, I'd take an extra 1k hitpoints any day of the week over that. Most of the raid mobs in game, its all about the first 10 secs of the fight. If you cant stabalize it then you wipe. With the huge aoe and single target nukes of the t6 raid mobs a lot of times its all about having enough hp to sustain a few hits. Sure on the cakewalk raid mobs we do ok like Lockjaw but the others, forget it I'll be clearing adds. Our aoe dps doesnt help us in raids where there is 1 mob and no adds either. It is not substantial enough compared to guards to help us hold hate that much better. Have you stood next to your guardian and been switched in and out of the mt group? Check the stats we are inferior, period. And what happens when you realize you cant tank and your dps gets nerfed? At least i can help clear the out-of-raid trash mobs I have absolutely no problem not being the raid MT. I spent months not tanking. My point is if we are bunched along with guardians and arent as good at tanking please soe, give us something thats useful. Better group buffs would be a nice start, possibly a better intercept? Im not sure how they could do it. After the new combat changes we have no place in a raid. That is my concern. Message Edited by ligiguinesmule on 11-08-2005 03:30 AM
I can honestly say that I never ever use the defensive stance when I am tanking. The hit to our offensive is to great and makes it near impossible to hold agro when you have high DPS classes in the group. Yes, using rampage plus our AoE arts, or open wounds helps a great deal keeping agro in these situations, but rampage and open wounds can only be used every three minutes and using our taunts alone dose not work. I can pull and kill at least 3 groups of cyclops in the Table of Eyes area in a 3 minute time span. That leaves me at least one group that I have no way of generating enough DPS to build hate and keep agro unless I am in my offensive stance. Killing giants is even worse as they are generaly higher level then the cyclops and therfore my taunts are resisted more. I am not predicting doomsday with this patch. I will adept and overcome to the best of my ability, but I can't honestly say that these changes will not hurt and make agro control much more difficult. The changes made to taunts in LU13 make them to unpredictable when fighting yellow con and higher mobs to rely on them alone. In my opinion they are resisted to much. One added note, Insolent Gibe is a great addition to our taunt line, but it is on a 3 minute timer also. This is my emergency taunt which I only use when I have a roamer add. I try my hardest not to use it during a regular fight to hold agro because as soon as I do I will need it and it will not be ready. Also it is near usless inside dungeons. I made the mistake of using it in one of the rooms in Clefts and pulled 2 additional groups of mobs right through the walls. Needless to say what the outcome of that fight was. All in all, I love my zerker. I love our AoE skills. I love being able to kill grouped mobs faster then any other tank. This is our forte. Unfortunatly, Aoe's are the target of another big hit by SoE and it is going to hurt.
They are reducing the 20% proc rate on our group berserk buff to 10%, while leaving our self buff alone (remaining at 20%). This shouldn't affect us personally (in theory), it will just reduce the amount our group proc's berserk. Yep, they are nerfing our offensive stance. But if you compare our offensive stance to other fighters offensive stances, ours was so much better. This is balancing it verse other fighter classes. Can't say i'm impressed, but i see why they did it On a side note: Absolutely and 100% correct Pin StNeedles. For the neigh sayers, want to test it? go to majdul, and pull the three groups of solo encounters in the Court of Coins/Golden palace area. Turn off your Fury line, we dont need other AE's confusing the situation, also dont hit rampage. Turn on Open wounds. You will see five lines of damage even tho your fighting 9 mobs. Now assuming you dont get chain vanquished(read: stunned), you'll be able to drop these nine mobs with open wounds. Now the neigh sayers are gunna say 'but those mobs are are only in your front arc, you dont hit mobs behind you'. Since you'll be surrounded by the nine mobs, face one try and move around to keep the mobs on your back. They will all get hit. In the end the spell description is wrong. I know its hard to bear that SoE could actually do something wrong when it comes to pointless spell descriptions, but yes it is wrong. Those descriptions have nothing to do with the code behind the abilities, they are just quick interpretations of the abilities. If you still dont believe that Open wounds currently has a target limit. You did not test it enough. I know when i realised it had a max target limit i was pissed. I've further gone to do upwards of 1500-2000dps with the current version of open wounds. Cant be that bad then. As for insolent gibe, if its gunna have a max of 8 targets, that disappoints me. It was an awesome spell while it lasted, and actually gave berserkers a clear role for raid situations. Mulitply encounter agro control. Guess we wait and see wednesday.
So basically somewhere along the line they have nerfed it to hit a certain number of targets and in doing so have bugged the spell so it acually effects all mobs around you instead of the 180 degree frontal arc postion which it was doing a few months ago. Is it still even hitting mobs outside the encounter itself still or is it encounter only and working like Rampage seeing its hitting all mobs around you? Hope you guys are /bugging this.
The movie shows exactly what it was intended to show. That you can position mobs however the hell you like, and it will hit them. In front, behind, wherever - there is no restriction on what angle they are at, it hits the same number of mobs regardless. How would it help show that if I put all the mobs in front of me? As for your level 60 Berserker friends, I can only guess that they also lack observational capabilities. There is only 1 skill (ignoring block and parry) we have at 60 that has an angle restriction - Berserker Rush.
No, it NEVER hit an unlimited number of mobs, and it does not claim this anywhere. And it was changed in beta from having an arc restriction after many people complained that the restriction was too severe and it rarely hit more than 1 or 2 targets as a result. As for hitting out of encounter. Why ask that question if you watched the movie I posted?
Well thats not the way it worked on Test Pin and thats not the way it worked 15 days after DoF was released when the first Berserker on EF hit 60. Like i said above, somewhere along the line its been silently nerfed and in the process they have messed up the targeting of the CA to hit mobs reguardless of where they are, which is obviously how its not suppose to work according to the CA description. Now that people have noticed it and have brought it to other peoples attention im sure there will be many bug reports to fix it. Is it still even hitting other mobs outside the encounter, are your observational skills good enough to let us know that seeing im not online atm.
No the problem on DOF beta was that you had to be basically ontop of the mobs for it to be working so they increased the range of certain CA's to give some more distance so you could be able to perform the arts, Khalad and konofo both posted screen shots of the problem.
...and as soon as they fixed that range problem, and ever since, Open Wounds has had no directional restriction. Period. Please don't make me dig up beta screenshots. najena.konk
1. That is how it worked on Test, and that is how it worked ever since I had the skill on Sept 30th. 2. There weren't any level 60 Berserkers on EF 15 days after DoF release. 3. It was changed in the last 2 weeks of Beta, and not since. 4. See konofo's post.
Pin ive come to terms like most others have, that you are always correct. Open Wounds is obviously bugged, the OP mentioned nothing about OW in the OP, and your parse in the other thread shows that Rampage is the next to be nerfed seeing as the reason for nerfing Offensive stance was because it was doing 15% of your total damage because of your play style which not every one adopts. When you look at what is next you have Rampage doing 13% of your total damage after Unbridled Fury, so does that mean Rampage needs to be adjusted to 3 targets also because its a aoe like the patch state?
What do you mean by my playstyle? You mean I turn the skill on and use it, therefore it does damage? Good job you don't do that, so the change is not going to affect you. Rampage did 11% under those conditions. Open Wounds was responsible for much more damage than either of the proc skills (probably 25% of total damage in the session), but you can't see this in the parse as it's merely autoswing "slash" damage.
No, im saying you chose to use the skill while you tank, which can potentially proc off another reactive proc and we all know why slow hand weps rule supreme in this situation. Open Wounds isnt being nerfed here, its bugged and needs to be fixed seeing it is hitting mobs all around you which it isnt suppose to be hitting mobs all around you. Now your telling me that seeing as Open Wounds is a max of 4 targets, its proced more damage on 4 targets over that parse session then Rampage and Unbridled Fury has but is registering as auto swing damage? Auto Swing damage part is true, but i dont believe your parsing more damage with Open Wounds which is limited to only 4 targets where you can potentially get more damage out of Rampage and Unbridled Fury which is a entire encounter AoE, you can hands down get more damage out of those 2 simply because they dont have a limit to amount of mobs they can hit and Unbridled Fury is a constant buff where Rampage and Open Wounds is 36 second buffs and down for 3 mins. 25% percent total damage roughly from Open Wounds alone? .................:smileyindifferent:, now add in your Parry, Blocks, Misses, Ripostes and see how many times Open Wounds really did hit. I think you will find its more or less around the same as Rampage. Which is exactally the reason Unbridled Fury does that few percent more then Rampage, because its always up.
I dont know anything about the beta, this is how its been since i hit 58 (late September-early October). To answer your question: Yes it hits multi-encounters, to a max of four targets (your target plus three others) Other items of note about Open Wounds: 1) Range on it flukey at best when fighting large modeled creatures. Fighting multiply encounters in Silent city, outside fountain of life. It works fine sometimes, others times i cant hit two mobs even if i'm standing inside them. This may be related to the 2nd problem 2) When Open Wounds is up on a single normal heroic mob, example lvl 58^^^ Giant. Your auto-attack appears to hit twice per swing. I've found that occasionally when open wounds is up and i'm fighting a single epic encounter mob, example 60^^^ epicx4 Royal prowler, that open wounds will not perform that secondary attack. Meaning: I put open wounds up and mob only takes a single auto-attack swing, altho i do get the bonus haste. I never /bugged because i just assumed it was a problem with the wording of the ability. Combat Art descriptions and stats have been wrong before.
Alright, i say everyone shut up, stop throwing out numbers and lets all be very very quiet and hope now they dont nerf rampage.
