Upcoming PvP server - Info & Issues

Discussion in 'PvP TLE Discussion' started by Kazooooooooooo, Feb 1, 2021.

  1. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    Creating a consolidated post where we can find current and up to date info on the server itself as well as facilitating a discussion amongst players to drive our server into the best possible state it can be. I will attempt to update the post with current information, but no promises.

    As of now we're light on info but Kander has confirmed a soon to be PvP TLE that is permanent. Currently, there is no confirmed launch date however, there is a chance the server launches this fiscal quarter . Also, the possibility of beginning the server at KoS/EoF exists, again this information is not confirmed yet but it has been hinted as an option by Kander himself. So to recap, only official info is that next server is permanent and

    Below are some issues I believe need to be addressed before next launch.
    • Double up/Dispatch PvP mit
    Dispatch and double up were a huge issue. No brigand should be one shotting tanks like they have no armor, was just over tuned. A dispatch double up combo should make a tank killable and mages like paper. Possibly scale dispatch harder on tanks and less on mages? Not entirely sure as you want the spell to remain effective but not overbearing.
    • Racial Track in PvP
    Racial track diminishes the need for scouts, I'm not a fan of this. Why would anyone play something like a bard when they can play an enchanter with track? Scouts are unique, especially bards, so taking away a staple of the classes identity and giving it to everyone doesn't feel great as a scout player and makes certain classes like SK's extremely oppressive. God forbid they're a kerra, you're going nowhere! Disable racial track to incentivize diverse class base.
    • CC Durations
    CC durations were real rough on season 2, but perfect on Deathtoll. CC in eq2 is a the identity of some classes. Enchanters and mages specifically struggled last season due to their stun having a shorter duration than any cast of their spells. They rely on them to have not only survivability but as a setup and opportunity to deal damage. Without decent CC durations we will be looking towards Everscout2!
    • XP bugs
    XP bugs semi ruined season 1 with the discovery XP, just need to get out in front of these. Leveling should feel like a journey and not a chore.
    • Contested Respawn Timers
    Contested respawn timers(looking at you Seraph of Stags) 2 hours is simply too low for the amount of loot/rares something like this is dropping. Needs to be a better balance between the two. Pretty easy fix to adjust respawn or total items dropped. Without this being looked at, you could see a single guild lock down the mob early on and create a steep difference in gear for players who have yet to hit max.
    • Leaderboards
    Leaderboards were an interesting idea, loved being able to see them in game however don't think the execution was ideal. Probably a better idea to go back to writs, the tokens from leaderboard were too easy to manipulate. This allows the avenue for PvP gear to make a come back. I know PvP gear gets a bad rep but gear gained through PvP and gear with stats directly made for PvP are two very different things.


    Below are some low effort ideas I believe would increase the longevity of the server.
    • FFA PvP
    FFA PvP was a great idea, server felt much more full. Would love to see this brought back, I was against it at first but it was executed well.
    • Contested Server-wide Announcements
    Ten or so minutes before a contested spawns there should be a server wide message. Would allow everyone to get in on the fun and manufacturing PvP like the old Warzones without it feeling too forced. People want these mobs anyway, you're just getting rid of the hardcore guilds need to sit a dead body at a mob and maybe throwing a few more people in the ring.
    • Gear
    Gearing needs to be looked at specifically I think it'd be a good idea to go over the state of quest items, HQ items, dungeon items. I'm of the opinion you want the world to feel populated and the best way to artificially do that is spread out your gearing options. Ideally you'd want a mix of Heritage quests/raid/PvP. PvP should probably be a slightly worse version of raid gear.

    One thing I'd like to note is I believe this is the last chance for PvP. It might already be too late if we are being honest, but the optimist in me likes to believe there is still a chance. The trust has been lost after three straight servers with constant issues. Season 1 and 2 just felt like a cash grab, this one has to be done right or you're only wasting time. A beta server for players to test would be incredible. Moving forward I'd like to know what y'all are looking for in a server? What ideas new or refurbished do you have to enhance the server?

    Edit: Consistently editing, first is to fix my post from a wall of complaints to a list of issues with potential fixes and reasoning behind the potential issues.
    krokous, Lovidicus, Formal and 3 others like this.
  2. SevenShadows Member

    My wish list:

    *Would love to have it be locked and not progress past TSO.

    *No Guild Halls.

    *PVP enabled everywhere, including in all cities.
    krokous and Siren like this.
  3. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    Definitely some interesting ideas here. I'm not entirely worried about locking the server yet, only because I'm a bit worried about the population so the priority lies there.

    Definitely agree with no guild halls. It makes the server feel empty, doesn't facilitate a community and just adds another instance in which people aren't out in the world, which I believe we should encourage at all costs.

    So this one is tough for me and I totally understand both sides however I actually think they should return to the carnage flag rules of the OG days or something similar. Players should have 1 zone in which they are safe if they need to leave their comp but don't want to log out. Still makes the world feel full, still allows for city pvp if players within the cities attack first. I think at this point we need to facilitate the growth of the server, not enough hard-core players left for city pvp to be worth it imo.
  4. Obano Well-Known Member

    This biggest problem with PvP was half the server played SK and there were all Shadow Knight guilds running around. Harm Touch was way over powered at low levels. SK in general were just over powered at all levels.

    Brigs didn't matter. If they can one-shot a tank who cares? Get good. Use your temps.

    FFA PvP was dumb. Faction based PvP was what made the PvP servers shine back in the day. Freeport vs Qeynos is the way to go. Otherwise the Russians on Harla Dar will all stick together and dominate any FFA server.

    PvP gear is a bad idea. It just leads to exploits and farming alts. People should go out in the world and get gear. That is what encourages PvP. Leaderboards and titles are fine as long as it is not attached to any rewards.

    Leveling exp rates should x2 other servers. People want to PvP, not spend all day grinding or doing quests.
    Siren likes this.
  5. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    So SKs have always been strong, a lot of that is based around their self healing g on unholy blessing and dmg loaded behind HT. If your answer for brig is to get good, just get good and beat the SK?

    The reasons brigs are so oppressive is due to how much mitigation they're debuffing currently. I'm not sure if you played season 1 or 2 but any class running around 100-0 plate wearing tanks through two abilities is not ok, doesn't leave any room for counterplay as the aforementioned SK. If they can 1 shot SKs and Paladins just imagine what they're doing to healers and mages. Need to have some semblance of counterplay against the class

    FFA PvP was excellent. If you're a fan of PvP there is no reason you shouldn't enjoy this. I was also against FFA as a purist but it was a pleasant surprise, I totally agree faction pvp is supreme but I dont think we have the population to sustain that anymore. It basically boils down to guild vs guild which means more PvP targets. If you're struggling with Russians dominating you then I suggest you again look towards your own advice and get good as they are not unbeatable as I've done quite well against them over the course of every single TLE.

    PvP gear gets a bad reputation for a few reasons. One was the separation of PvP stats and PvE stats in which toughness was required or you were dead in a heartbeat, this essentially leads to needing two sets of gear which means twice the farming and nobody wants to do. The other negative aspect associated with PvP gear is the manipulation of said system. This is always going to be an issue with any system, players will seek to exploit it. I think the way to handle it would be only certain pieces availthrough PvP gear. So even if they are farming alts for writs, it's only for 3-5 pieces which I believe is reasonable for anyone to attain on a PvP system. This way you're still encouraging players to PvE, still encouraging PvP and also giving players multiple facets of the game to gear through. If the PvP gear is toned down, weakened versions of the raid gear then we have nothing to worry about. I promise PvP gear is not all bad, it was only implemented poorly and if done properly moving forward could benefit the server greatly.

    As for XP, it shouldn't be a chore. PvP, quests, mobs should all give relative even amounts of XP so you can do anything to level, it shouldn't be absurd where people are max level within the first few days but a week. I do agree that XP gains were low if we are comparing to season 2.

    Anything else you can think of? Some of these are great to discuss!
  6. DefeatedZ Member

    Good ideas. I agree with just about all of them to be honest. Having the server start on KoS would be ideal as well as:
    • Brigs 100% need looked at. SKs weren't really op and were beatable and didn't have massive spike damage. Much more manageable than Brigs 2-shotting everything.
    • Population will not be at a stage to allow faction vs faction thus FFA pvp is the way to go which I was surprised at how fun it was really.
    • I do feel PvP gear shouldn't be brought into it to be honest. PvE gear would suffice and would actually encourage PvP when out farming for PvE gear.
    • City PvP is whatever i guess. Why not.
    • Levelling exp shouldn't be too slow - reasonable quest/hq/pvp exp would be fine. No return of the dumb Disco exp.
    • CCs needed addressed BIG TIME - i played illus on beta and season 1 & 2. Illus pet dmg was strong to compensate the lack of CC durations, then the pet dmgs got a blanket nerf so illus was basically useless and couldn't solo pvp. Address this.
    What do you think about looking at summoner damage? specifically conjy/necro scouts pets? i seem to remember they were ridiculous and DB done a blanket "fix" for all pets hence illus got crippled as a result too. Not the end of the world if they fixed CC but there's a fair amount of IFs to make this server successful.

    Exciting to see permanent PvP making a return - if things are addressed and managed properly, it could be a success. I'm optimistic.
    Siren likes this.
  7. Obano Well-Known Member

    My answer to Brig was "Use your temps." Use Parry / Divine Aura that dispatch, guess what? The mitigation debuff doesn't even land if dispatch gets parried. I played both season 1 and 2 and years on the OG PvP servers. Back in the day I used to eat Brigands for breakfast. They were a joke class that only people who didn't know what they were doing were afraid of. All it takes is pressing one button to stop a Brig. That is why I said get good.

    So what is your secret strat for taking apart an SK? In season 1 and 2 they were basically invincible. The only way to beat an SK is with another SK. That is why in season 2 half the server was nothing but SKs. People learned in season 1 that nothing beats an SK. So everyone with half a brain rolled an SK in season 2.

    Okay I am just going to stop you right there. I think I will pass on this FFA server. If it is anything like you are describing then this server will be DOA. Dead on Arrival. Have fun playing with the Russians on your SK until they shut it down again.
  8. DefeatedZ Member

    No they were not. I seen SK's lose against druids & brigands in both seasons. A good troub probably could i reckon. I don't disagree they are tough, but definitely not invincible. There is no "secret strat".
  9. Drew575 Active Member


    this mentality is the wrong approach. FFA pvp is needed with such a small population. Otherwise people who want PVP will just exile. If this was 10-12 years ago, the game would be decently populated where you wouldn't need FFA pvp. That's not the case today. We'll be lucky to have 100-120 players prime time is my bet (maybe more on launch). As for your expertise on the brigand class...the class literally could hit 3 buttons and kill any tank/scout/mage in under 3 seconds. using temps doesn't have anything to do with it.
  10. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    SK's are definitely strong and always will be with the way their kit is designed. Luckily they can be tuned just as brigs should be. Your example of Parry/DA covers doesnt even begin to cover half the classes, a few classes having a single ability on a long CD as the only defensive for dispatch/double up is not good for the health of a server! As for actually dealing with them they are extremely prone to well timed CC and kiting. Troub excels, enchanters do wonders, necros do well, rogues do well, rangers do well, conj's prolly a decent matchup for them as well. Last server monk/bruiser were 60/40 on who'd win leaning SK's favor and paladins would always eventually out heal/mana them. There are tons of options to deal with Shadowknights! I do think part of the reason SK's are so oppressive though is due to racial tracking. A scout with plate that can heal and nuke? No thank you!

    It is quite odd your stance, seems a bit hypocritical to be against SK's but not brigs when brigs were blatantly more broken. My best guess is you're a solo brig player who struggled against SK's/brawlers and got mobbed on by the russians? Your opinions seem to be driven by personal bias and not rational thinking which is fine but I think it's important everyone else is aware of your clear hypocrisy as this is the type of complaints that led to eq2 pvp to the state it is currently in. I'd love an actual reason as to why you don't enjoy FFA other than you struggled with it against the russians. My guild and I did fine against them although they're always a tough fight!

    You're really missing out if you're giving up at the idea of FFA, worked wonderfully last time excluding these Russians you struggled with. There is always someone better than you. Guess you ain't a real "pvper" like you claimed :(

    edit: pretty sure every healer wins 1v1 vs sk except mystic/templar?
  11. Obano Well-Known Member

    On a faction PvP server there is always exile for people who want more PvP. That is not a bad thing, it a good thing. Let the FFA players go exile then everyone gets what they want. It is win-win the way I see it. FFA ruleset is ONLY for a very tiny minority of players who want a hardcore PvP experience. Factions is what brings in the larger player base and Deathtoll wasn't ten years ago either. Yet Deathtoll had 10 times the population of Season 1. If you think it will be 100 people on the server it will be even less next time as people who want factions are simply going to sit this one out completely.

    FFA No thanks. You can keep your FFA PvP. I'm out.

    That is 3 seconds too many when it takes less than a second to counter a Brig's combo. As I said, only people who didn't know what they were doing worry about Brigs. If you don't understand how 100% parry or stoneskin temps stops a Brig a in it's tracks then you shouldn't be speaking on the subject. Beating brigs is all about temps. Click that parry temp faster then they can dispatch and you win. It is not hard.[/quote]
    Siren likes this.
  12. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    PvP gear is going to be quite the hot topic I imagine. Now if PvP gear was a slightly worse version of current tier raid pieces and only available in select slots, would it still feel awful? It would not be BiS gear but still serviceable, players receive a slight incentive to PvP without taking away the incentives to PvE. Limiting the # of pieces you are able to equip or just limiting the number of PvP pieces I think goes a long way. You can assist the more casual players in gearing without making it the main focus and ruining the other aspects of the game, because I totally agree. Eq2 is a standard PvE MMO w/ pvp turned on. Without PvE we have no game. If anything I imagine the few PvP pieces would lead to an increase in PvP simply because less people would be doing the raids for the exact gear. Less instances and more open world focus. I also believe that this caters to the casual player without negatively impacting the hardcore player or allowing the system to be manipulated into farming an entire set of gear.

    The only other note regarding PvP gear I have is that its important to remember PvP gear is looked down upon because previous iterations separated stats which separated PvE/PvP. I believe with my solution there is no separation but rather two systems that work in sync all while giving the player more versatile options to not only gear through but the actual gear choice itself.

    City PvP is whatever for me as well, although I do think the carnage system played quite well although it was not perfect. Kinda silly to have nowhere to safely handle your funds/afk for a few minutes.
  13. Fanatical Member

    How many classes have a decent defensive CD in vanilla/dof/kos? I feel like you are basing balancing around what a monk can do (which counters most melee classes)
  14. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    [/quote]

    Correct, I am one of those players that is consistently exile but it isn't about me. It's about the health of the server not the hardcore experience as you claim. We might get lucky with 200players on this new server, if 120 of them are Freeport the population feels incredibly small as opposed to if you opened it up to FFA. Server feels fuller, nothing to stop you from grouping/guilding, amplifies the actual number of players to kill.

    As for Deathtoll having more population there are a number of reasons for it. First of all, it was the first TLE server. People craved that nostalgia, not as many each time prior. Second, seasonal PvP servers were never going to work. Talk about a server dead on arrival! Any effort/time spent is pissed down the drain in 2 months, it wasn't worth the time/money to play, for anyone. You have to remember this game is 15 years old, its not top priority for most anymore. Adding or removing factions does nothing to harm the population like you've claimed. The bigger threat to the server is not adding FFA pvp and the situation I described earlier comes to fruition and people begin quitting immediately because you are searching for PvP and they are all on your faction. Historically there has always been a dense population in Freeport and Qeynos has scraps. It's been this way for 3 different TLE's now. If it wasn't for my guild leaving freeport on DT and going exile and eventually Valor leaving to qeynos there would be have been no server. All 3 top guilds on the same side is something you can avoid by adding FFA.

    Regarding brigs, only certain classes have a DA/Parry that is enough to stop it. You're looking at 75% of the classes getting creamed by instantaneously by 1 class. Unless you want a server of only SK's and brigs you need to balance the classes so the server can be functional. You need more than just two classes to raid after all.
  15. Drew575 Active Member

    [/quote]

    take your opinions on broken mechanics and classes with you. I'm sure we'll still see you on launch regardless if it's FFA pvp or not lol.
  16. Siren Well-Known Member

    FFA actually splits server PvP into 2 even tinier populations, because people are too lazy to leave home (and just bell camp, yawn) of which Qeynos has the smallest population due to SK/Necro.

    Exiles ARE FFA. There were never nearly as many Exiles on the original Nagafen, because most players prefer factions. Exiles are fun for one or two alts, but I'd prefer factions with Exiles overall to build a sense of community and the feeling of wanting to jump in and help people vs considering every player on the server an enemy that you wouldn't want to even add items into the broker to help gear up, never mind help out of a bad fight. If populations rise to the levels of the first new Nagafen beta from a couple years ago, I hope they do factions with Exiles. The community and server population will last a lot longer!

    Racial tracking actually balanced classes and opened up class choices a lot more, especially for more gimped classes and tanks who get killed from afar by 8 zillion rangers. You saw a ton more variation and odd duck classes running around once there was racial tracking available! If we're stuck with FFA instead of factions and Exiles, I'd way rather keep the tracking. Otherwise it's world of scouts, /yawn.

    PvP gear is a big NO per Caith, who handles all the gear alone and has said multiple times he can't possibly do both PvE and PvP gear. And those stupid PvP stats killed the server as much as guild halls, flying/leaping mounts and BGs did. A PvP server needs new blood constantly coming in (and alts) or the population dies fast. No more "dandelion fluff, meet brick wall!" crap. I hope they limit AAs too! Early TL rules work best for open PvP for sure.

    Same huge NO for BGs ever returning: Kander said way too many people permanently lost characters zoning in and out, there were also way too many duping exploits, and BGs were very rushed and way too buggy when they were put in. Kander said they'd need to be recreated from scratch to ever return, and they don't even remotely have the staff or budget for that.

    It'd be great if XP exploits were patched out if not done already: most of the server blasted to cap in a day in their Level 1s. This doesn't prolong the life of the server. At least leaderboards were patched during seasons to heavily restrict people getting credit for more than 1 kill on a character. Buying/selling fame was pathetic and overran all chat (especially in EL), not to mention you'd get spammed to death with super annoying /tells offering cheat services in every zone.
    Obano likes this.
  17. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    FFA doesn't split? Your example quite literally shows why there should be FFA and not why there shouldn't. With FFA you could kill anyone sitting in the city, no? I would prefer factions for sure, I love being exile but I dont believe the population can sustain it.

    Racial tracking has to go. Doesn't matter if other classes feel gimped without it, you're gimping classes by adding it. Every class brings their own unique twist to EQ2. Explain to me why people will play a bard when they can play a kerra enchanter? Sure some classes get better with track, many get worse however. Shadowknights become the can do everything class with track. Having a good scout in your group used to mean something on a PvP server. If anything this would probably increase the number of fights on the server because less people are going to run when someone pops on track.

    PvP gear is w.e at the end of the day. It could work but probably not worth the time/man power for DBG to work out properly. BG's dont need to happen. A server wide announcement before a contested x4/x2 spawns would be incredible though. You keep the same zones, all while giving players an "event" to pvp over. Would encourage PvP without forcing it into certain zones on a certain schedule. Also gives the casual player a heads up and they can throw their hat in the ring. I think this idea is absolute gold tbh
  18. Obano Well-Known Member

    @Kazoooooooo Dude you know nothing about me. The only Brig I played was an alt I had on Nagafen over a decade ago. Most of my PvP experience comes from playing a Bruiser which still has it's "General of Discord" title for completing 1000 PvP wits.

    In season 1 I was a Warlock though and was literally the last person to log off the server.
    In season 2 I dual boxed a Bruiser and Templar.

    Both times the Guilds I started in were dead in a week and whole server into a ghost town not long after. While solo I never once died to a Brig. The SKs gave me a lot trouble and Russian were just ridiculous.

    I am not missing out on anything. I saw all there was to see and don't care repeat the experience. Really there was nothing to see anyway and it was quite a let down.

    [IMG]
    Siren likes this.
  19. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    I really appreciate all the feedback and discussion! If we could get a red post or two in here to tell us what is/isn't possible I think we could really run with it and provide some killer ideas.
    SevenShadows likes this.
  20. Kazooooooooooo Active Member

    Ok so that's why you dont think brigs are broken, you play there 1 direct counter and struggle with spell casting SK's. Your opinion is extremely bias. Brigs need to be looked at

    The guild thing is a rough take, season 1 only lasted a month before people knew it was a cash grab(most knew before launch, seasonal implies cash grab). Season 2 was dead on arrival and was never going to work for the same reason season 1 didn't work. I'd imagine we'd have a population somewhere between season 1 first month and Deathtoll pop.

    Struggling against a guild of russians is no reason to not have FFA pvp. Hopefully this time around the population will be a bit better. It sucks however with a better population I dont think you'd have as terrible of an experience as last time! Those two servers never stood a chance