Upcoming Monk changes on Test

Discussion in 'Monk' started by ARCHIVED-bonesbro, Feb 9, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-RadricTycho Guest

    Junaru, rather than waiting for me to reply to a post and then one-starring it, why don't you just click on my name and get a list of every post I have ever made and systematically one-star all of them.

    Just trying to save ya some time.

    You're welcome.
  2. ARCHIVED-kerra Guest

    GangsterFist wrote:
    Staggering stance is a deflection buff, that just happens to add a bit of agility, I don't think the minor agility increase you get from staggering stance will effect your melee game greatly, if any at all.
    I am in no way trying to start an argument as you are far more versed in tactics than I but 12-14 (sorry I forget) points IMO is no small bit of agility (2 min long Adept III) and I will agree with Radric and the agility statement. I was only able to start hitting mobs in RE after I got this skill and then stacked my agility to a natural 120. Explanation? I am sorry to say I have none, this is the way I have always done things with my monk and it has never failed me yet.
  3. ARCHIVED-GangsterFist Guest

    I mean minor in the senes of what troubudars and mystics can buff you. I once had str sta and agi all around 400 or just over 400 with the right buff group. That to me is a large increase. From what the test server notes say I would say that the major increase in bonuses start at the base 100s, like 100 u get an increase, and 200+ you get another increase, and so on, where at 400+ in a stat you got just over 200% bonuses, which was not how they intended it. I see lots of items that give +10 to a stat, so adding ten to a stat does not make or break your character, nor should it.

    I think everying inbetween the 100s (ie 135, 175, or 320) is incremental and you don't see the full benefit bonus until you break that 100 digit barrier.

    However, I agree, a DEV needs to come forth and explain this stuff. Moorgard tells us your race won't matter b/c of end game equipment and spells will max your stats, then he turns around and says every stat in important and gives examples of what every stat does. Next thing you know, they will say STR is all you need or whatever.

    As far as melee efectiveness, ie to hit, to do damage, I am still going to go with str as it says so in the persona that your ATK is your score to hit and directly buffing your STR automatically raises your ATK.

    Agility does not raise your ATK what so ever. So, perhaps it just seems that way. Or unless you will parse multiple tests against the same mob (like 30 fights with agility buff, and 30 with out) maybe you can see some sort of pattern. Parsing is also so random, and I think people take it kinda to heart too much. I have done 480dps before in a group, but that was an extreme rare occasion where I had 400+ str, and using a mastery rage skill and, had other procs casted on me, plus all my skills were hitting for max damage (like kicking for 800 damage) with that huge str increase. that does not mean i can out dps a scout or whatever. It just means that one time I was a bad @ss and it was on certain circumstances. Other times I have done 60 dps in a fight.
  4. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    ROFL.
  5. ARCHIVED-kerra Guest

    Looks like he got me two..lol or one of my many fans! I would say something but then I always stop and think

    "Winning an Argument on the Internet is like winning the Special Olympics....You may win but you are still a R e t a r d"
  6. ARCHIVED-Leivantes Guest

    Let's do the math.

    But first... let's remember that that Moorgard has said in the past that Brawlers do not use mitigation in tanking - so is this erroneous? Or was he just saying that because Light Armor's mitigation is so low (or was) that it was irrelivent in combat?

    Anyway - assume that a number of 'skill' assigned for LIGHT ARMOR mitigation is '50'. A 35% increase to this 'skill' would change it to: '67' or an increase of 17

    Let's also assume that HEAVY ARMOR mitigation is currently about three times higher than light armor, or '150'. an 11% increase in this skill would bring it to: '166' - or an increase of 16

    So basically - the MITIGATION of both of these armor types are being raised by roughly the SAME amount (16 and 17 in this sample).

    If Heavy Armor is only twice as effective in mitigation than light armor (which I doubt - but can't be certain on the numbers without Dev verfication), then the sample above would increase Light armor by 17, and Heavy Armor by 11 (mitigation). So before you get excited about the 35% compared to 11% - it's not much of a close int the gap.

    I'm sure this was done in order to offset the damage done by lvl 40+ critters is probably higher than anticipated.

    But a relatively equal buff in mitigation with other tank classes, and the nerf in damage done, isn't something to get overly excited about as it pertains to making us more competitive with plate-classes. The longer lasting spell buffs are super-duper, though.
  7. ARCHIVED-Gaige Guest

    While this may be true I will retain my optimism and hope Moorgard is trying to convey what I think he is. But who knows.
  8. ARCHIVED-Velorek Guest

    Your math may work out but you're also making several assumptions to base it on. It isn't hard to make the numbers look equal when you can simply pull the criteria they're made from out of the air.
    This isn't to undermine your point though because you do make a valid argument. I remain optimistic but time will tell if they hit the mark or not.
  9. ARCHIVED-Invic Guest

    Well any attempt is forward progess :) Nice to see we are listened to also. Well hopefully the days of insane dmg even from greys will be gone. I do think total avoidance is flawled sinc only way to make it work without death spikes is a fixed percentage then that can be abused lol. I am a bit reserved at the 11% vs 35% due to my figures I gathered it seems a bit low BUT hey I don't have the game code in front me of me so I will wait and see how this rides out.

    As for Mamaseeta lets start a thread about how the earth is round not flat and see how much data and flip flopping gets done! LOL! :smileytongue:

    Keep your fingers crossed this rollercoaster may have just begun!
  10. ARCHIVED-Stieb Guest

    ive always considered monks more of a melee class than tank. is this just me or do other people feel the same?
  11. ARCHIVED-TuinalOfTheNexus Guest


    This seems to reflect the views of quite a lot of monks. I disagree with it.

    A monk should be a viable tank for a 6 person exp group from level 20-50. No question. I feel following the agi nerf this ceased to be the case, so naturally some kind of fix was necessary.

    However, if a group contains a plate class tank, then monk abilities would strongly suggest given equal levels they shouldn't be the one tanking. Firstly the fact they outstrip all other tanks in terms of dps (and by a large margin), means it's only reasonable for them to have poorer mitigation. Secondly, several monk abilities, such as the staggering stance-martial discipline line lend themselves towards being used to support another tank.

    Consequently, monks have no role as tanks in high end raids. Because the only things that matter on a high end raid tank is their mitigation and ability to hold taunt. Effectively monks trade the ability to be a solid raid tank for the ability to join the damage dealers and remain highly valuable (particularly due to their large array of interrupts and stuns).
    Message Edited by TuinalOfTheNexus on 02-13-2005 08:01 PM
  12. ARCHIVED-bonesbro Guest


    I've had other melees equal or exceed my damage output before. However, if we're behind the mob going full DPS and the other fighter is in front of it, taunting, using non-damage skills, and getting parried, then we're going to crush them like bugs as far as DPS. Frankly, I feel that a lot of "Monks do way more damage than guardians/paladins" is because when we're doing the comparison we're doing dps and they're tanking.

    All fighters have the equivilants of the Staggering Stance/Martial Discipline line.

    Do you really know that mitigation is the key to tanking all raid mobs in EQ2? Remember that in EQ1, Evasive was used at least as often as Defensive when tanking epic encounters, because for some mobs Evasive was better. I don't know the answers myself - I'll leave that to the endgame Monks and would love their input.
  13. ARCHIVED-FamilyManFirst Guest


    This seems to be the common conception of Monks (and Bruisers) by plate tanks. I disagree with that. :)

    I've shelved my Monk at least until the Light Armor Mitigation change comes in (and possibly for longer) and I'm working up a Berzerker now. One of the things that surprised me as I leveled was the number of Taunts that the 'Zerker gets.

    I am of the firm opinion that Monks and Bruisers trade DPS for Taunts, not DToT (Damage Taken over Time). This makes a lot more sense since Monks can supplement their direct Taunting with indirect hate increase via damage.

    I think that Monks' DToT should, overall, equal that of Guardians. Monks would then work better in some cases (including some raid cases) and Guardians would work better in others. Whether this is the "vision" of SOE I'm not sure, though it seems so based on their public comments.
  14. ARCHIVED-RadricTycho Guest

    Can anyone in game tell us what the new AC values are for these two breast plates? If they are 182, and 262 repsectively, then we can be pretty certain that they followed the simple formula above.
    Thanks! :)
  15. ARCHIVED-Ethelwolf Guest

    Just tested new patch with my 28 monk, Over all outcome adds to an increased nerf on the class IMHO. Mobs that I could solo before patch now waste me before their health is even half down. I complained in a previous post that I was soloing orcs near the docks in zek and getting out soloed by a lower level Fury the other day. Now I can't solo these mobs at all. The increased mitigation applies to the mobs as well, and things haven't changed at all, but only have gotten worse. Why, because SOE always gives mobs much beter stats then a PC can ever acheive with their character at the same level. You can't fix a class or classes if you mitigate the fix by increasing the stats of the mobs at the same time. It's all a wasted effort. The balance that needs to be fixed in the game is not between players characters, but between players characters and the game enviornment. This is a non PVP game, balance between the classes is not needed. Balance between the classes and the game enviornment is needed. Your on the wrong track SOE. At the rate your going, You'll need full groups to nail solo mobs. EQ all over.
  16. ARCHIVED-node101 Guest

    I am a level 33 monk and can in no way see an improvement in this patch, infact my ability to tank seems considerably worse.

    Last night I was main tank in runnyeye with 2 healers, a 33 mystic and a 35 templar. I noticed a difference straight away on the first mob we fought, a white con enslaved warboar took me to 1/2 health in 2 hits, the encounter took the healers to 1/2 half power but we continued.

    After several fights all equaly a strugle compared to the first we arrived at our doom, a named goblin the runnyeye brewmeister. This mob conned orange to me and having tanked a red con named minotaur the previous evening I was confident we could take him. This was a stupid mistake, after having been beat senseless by the majority of the mobs in the place so far why i thought we could take this is beyond me but nontheless we did, 1 hit 3200 damage..dead from an orange con mob. at this point I took a break and went to zek where a group asked me to tank, we found a yellow conned named orc and decided to give him a go (at this point you must be thinking I have a debt wish) cut a long story short, more debt.

    All my gear is attuned and either orange or yellow con so I wouldn't say i'm poorly equiped, maybe it's not the best stuff available but I should be able to effectively do my job as main tank (the reason I made a monk in the first place)

    I made a monk to be a tank, It's something I enjoy to do. Even after the agility changes I didn't give in and continued to main tank in groups but now I can't see the point in even trying, what i'm seeing now is probably the same as every other monk (appart from a deluded few) has been saying in many posts and it's only that I was in my 20's and not realy seeing the full impact of the agility changes. It's so dissapointing to find that the class I enjoy playing the most is useless in the role I was lead to believe it was fit for, having to concede the role as tank to any plate class that can do the job of taking hits better is humiliating, I can lead a group effectively avoiding adds, I can hold aggro well with a lot of gold invested in the best taunts available to me, I learn the spawn points in dungeons and can predict where pops will come from but as far as the essential part of taking damage I am useless.
  17. ARCHIVED-Kharza Xorlarrin Guest


    I'd have to say I'm the exact opposite node101. I'm a 33 monk and tanked in Nek Castle all last night with a 29 templar and 31 mystic and owned everything all night long. I spent most of the night at full health or above 80% and never the whole night went below 50% health. I was in Sweeping Crane stance Adept I with Martial Disc every fight and mixed in Karmic when I had to. Now the BIG change for me is that to tank previously I had to always have FoTM on. I think I used it once last night and that was to tank the 2 sisters that spawn together. I felt like a meat shield stud again last night and had a necro we where grouping with tell me he had never seen a tank as good as me regardless of class and when he joined the group was asking our friend where the tank was.. she responded "Just wait until you see Khar tank then ask me that question". No deaths all night.. serious loot.. great xp.. wonderful experience. Now I spent some serious time yesterday going through all my respec choices very carefully to make sure I was built for tanking not DPS (had a mix before). My AC is up to almost 4000 unbuffed with high str and sta (human monk). I tanked just about everything there is in Nek Castle except the raid mob and we didn't have the time to get all the way down to Everling last night (but did almost the rest). Did the Swine Lord np. Now I will say the group I was in was my regular group and they are good, we only had 1 guy (the necro) that isn't a regular in the group. Group consisted of 32 Wizzie, 32 Ranger, 30 Necro, 29 Templar, 31 Mystic, and me 33 Monk.

    My stats unbuffed are:

    HP - 2041
    Power - 1183
    Attack - 570
    AC - 3989

    STR - 85
    AGI - 87
    STA - 61
    WIS - 48
    INT - 46

    Cold Resist 912
    Heat Resist 906
    Poison Resist 805
    Disease Resist 764
    Magic Resist 686
    Divine Resist 705
    Mental Resist 872
    Message Edited by Kharza Xorlarrin on 02-18-2005 10:31 AM
  18. ARCHIVED-node101 Guest

    my current stats for 33 as a wood elf unbuffed

    health 1965
    power 1097
    ac 4044

    str 68
    agi 106
    stam 54
    int 40
    wis 47

    cold 916
    disease 804
    divine 502
    heat 954
    magic 544
    mental 704
    poison 843

    I notice from your stats your agility is a lot lower but your stamina is a lot higher, it is dissapointing if the case is in fact that stamina is now the required stat for an avoidance based tank. It is also the only thing I can see that explains your apparent success where I am finding things impossibly hard.
  19. ARCHIVED-Kharza Xorlarrin Guest


    The thing that I notice is check our AC values. They are pretty close considering the difference in AGI. I tried the all agi route the first go around and while I tanked well I didn't think I was built to be a pure tank monk (which is what I play night in night out). I crawled through these forums the last couple days reading everything I could about training options and traits (humans get some good traits) and even found a thread back when Gage was a lvl 29 monk (LOL). But with all that said there still doesn't seem to be a glaring difference between our characters so lets talk tactics? Are you preloading reactive heal? Is the shaman staying up on the wards? Are you using stun (Rushing Bear I believe)? Another gem I found was the Grappling Bear skill (check the description now.. lowers mobs DPS by 5%.. where has this gem been!!). I was tanking in RE before the patch so I know we can succeed there pretty well. I'll try and check it out tonight and see if I'm having any issues tanking in there now.

    Khar 33 Monk Mistmoore
  20. ARCHIVED-node101 Guest


    well it was a pick up group, yes heals where preloaded, even so within seconds the wards are gone and then within 2 or 3 hits (non that miss or are blocked!) I am down to half health from around 2500 hp buffed. and even the greatest tactics in the world are not going to stop a hit that does around 700 more damage than I have health.

    It was not a bad group either we managed to get to the miners and cooking pot in runnyeye which from my experience in runnyeye is no mean feat for a sub 35 pickup group. The thing is I've been in groups as offtank with a plate main tank doing the exact same thing and they just do not have the same problems, I can live with damage streaks, I cannot live with constantly being taken to near death with very little avoidance and blocking in the same situations a plate tank takes very little damage in.