It's funny as heck when the gear itself has a mishap, though. FORESOOTH! I need a cobbler to attend to my Journeyman's Boots, post-haste!
Why give us agents that only work under special circumstances? Using Overseer agents is complicated enough without adding another layer of complication. Do you really think a new player is going to know this information or even where to get it? I've been playing for 17 years and I had no idea there was a difference in an agent's ability to complete a quest if the little star says I have the right agent. This is why I included it in this thread.
To be clear, the Cloak of Flames is NOT an agent. It is equipment. It is labeled that way if you examine it, Upon release the following notes were published: Update Notes - April 12, 2022 | EverQuest 2 Forums (daybreakgames.com) OVERSEER Overseer Agent slots may now use Overseer Equipment cards, which have less traits then a comparable agent, but reduce the cooldowns of your adventures and minions. You must have at least one Overseer Agent to accompany your Overseer Equipment on it's journey, your boots may be awesome, but not THAT awesome. The costs to reset cooldowns for minions and adventures has been adjusted. Some adventures may not be reset. So in this case they actually did document this. I'm pretty sure it is on the OS wikia page as well. That said, I have no idea WHY they chose to do that. Other than for holiday quests, it really isn't limiting, since the quests worth running all take multiple agents. They really don't seem to have fewer traits like the description said either. But the cooldown redcution is nice!
Do you really think new and returning players are going to go back through all of the update notes? How can anyone remember all the update notes even if they read them all? And who knew to examine an agent? I thought an agent was an agent. And who looks up every agent they get? It may be documented but the documentation isn't something I would expect a new or returning player would even think to look for so it might as well be undocumented. To me, this just adds an unnecessary complexity to an already complex system and I have no idea how it improves the game or makes it more enjoyable. But I stand corrected on it not being documented.
Here is where I have to disagree. I examine every item that I get for the first time, whether it's an adornment, a potion or an agent so I know what it is and whether it is useful. So I noted right away it said Celestial Item. The item name implies it may be special. This would drive me personally to ask or look for documentation on it. It sounds like you are not against undocumented systems, (which is the title of this particular thread and what I thought we were discussing) but any level of complexity at all. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think a game makes it 20 years if they don't roll out changes and new capabilities over time. If a new or returning player doesn't think they need to do a little research to understand the nuances of 20 years worth of content, I don't know what to say. Also you don't have tom memorize anything. You can get started, play at a basic level, then when you see something you don't know, you can search the forums, ask in game, or ask on the forums. "Hey, new guy here, I just noticed XXXXX, can anyone tell me how that works?" At least on Skyfire new and returning players ask those type of questions all the time. Many times when I get questions like that, I will refer them here to the forums where I know there's a helpful post, or the wikia page so they can get all the details. That's why I hate when things are not documented. Once I know it is posted somewhere, I can refer back to it for those days where I do something different and have forgotten exactly how something works. (I found that Update note in under 30 seconds so it very easy to find) I do not think I want DPG to stop trying new things. I LIKE some level of complexity, or I'd have been bored ages ago. Just a different mindset. I understand your perspective, I just don't think what you've asked for is a game that would have kept my interest this long.
You can spend many weeks farming currency to purchase the required pieces, then run old content to try and catch up... or you can resign yourself that it's a "perk" for those that played VoV in it's entirety.
This is exactly backwards. You aren't describing complexity. You're describing user-unfriendliness. If a game has 20 years of content and changes, there should be mechanisms to reduce the learning curve for new and returning players. This really should be obvious, because that's the way it works for pretty much everything else. Can you imagine buying a new appliance or electronic device that came without instructions, but instead just had a card that said, "Figure it out yourself"? Can you imagine calling customer service and getting a recording that insults you by saying that you must be against any level of complexity at all? Can you imagine the CEO mocking people who think that they don't need to do a little research to understand the nuances of the product? That is what we're talking about here. I managed to figure out the thing with the Cloak of Flame, though it confused me the first time. But until you quoted the update notes in this thread, I never knew the other stuff. If you look at the Cloak of Flames in your Overseer window, it does not say any of that stuff. So do you really think that players should be expected to memorize the update notes to understand game features that they might encounter in the future? If you do, then I really don't know what to say to you.
I'm confused here. My point here is that it IS documented. I do not have to figure it out myself, I just need to come to the forums and do a quick search, much like I would for a reference manual for the appliance in your example. I do NOT memorize the patch notes, nor do I expect others to. Heck, I know plenty of people who never read patch notes at all. I certainly haven't been mocking anyone. I've been genuinely trying to help. I found the notes quickly and provided them. But her answer was: My point is that when something occurs that I don't understand, I ask, or come search for answers in the forums. The alternative here is to never add anything new, or a feature that may not be obvious to use right away. Is it better for something like that to be obvious by examining the item? I agree!! But again here response to that was So it seemed to me she was more against the implementation of items rather than the lack of documentation. THAT was what I was responding to. I prefer they try to do stuff like that, even though truth be told I'd really prefer they scrap OS altogether. I only run them because there is no other way to get all the reduction baubles. I wasn't trying to imply they don't need to make more available within the game itself, I was saying that the fact that new things that get introduced may actually require a little effort to understand, and that isn't always a bad thing if it adds a little something to make it more interesting. At least for me, that is a worthwhile tradeoff.
I think what we all lose here is the fact that we have years of established knowledge of the game systems and mechanics that new players, and many returning players, simply don't have. Yes, it is simple enough to start examining every item and feature when something new comes out in order to get a handle on it, but we are dealing with one or a very few new features at a time. New players have to do this with absolutely everything. This is the "tying your shoes" problem. Most of us do this completely thoughtlessly, but if called upon to explain it, cannot do so, because it has so long been a part of our muscle memory that we are incapable of describing it. We can only model it. Players who have been at this game for many years have gotten past many shoe-tying challenges, and have simply forgotten how much complexity has accumulated over time. Do you remember what it was like gearing and preparing to go through a dungeon in Antonica or the Thundering Steppes? It was far, far, far, less challenging than mastering all the items and mechanics that must be put together to go into an end game H1 heroic today. There were no: Adornments Alternate Advancements More AA Lines Even More AA Lines Mercenaries Flying Mounts Colored Adornments Multiple Adornment Slots Green Leveling Adornments Temporary Adornments Mercenary Levels Mercenary Gear Mount Levels Mount Gear Grandmaster Abilities Ancient Abilities Ascension Abilities Shadowed Ethereals Shadowed Prestige AA Points Mercenary Battalion Buffs Deity Pets Deity Abilities Familiars Pets (Except for designated classes) Overseer Quests Days of Summer (now Panda) Gear And that is hardly an exhaustive list. It's just off the top of my head. A new or returning player has to navigate each and every one of these just to be able to reliably get into the same sort of dungeon pickup game that we used to do with very modest gear and average abilities. We have a very real problem of having such an established amount of knowledge gained over time that we have entirely lost sight of just how complicated this game has gotten. I'm not comfortable telling a new player that he or she can simply go to the Wiki and forum, and then examine his or her way through various icons, and be ready to play with a group in just a few weeks.
If someone needs to come to the forums in the hope of finding information -- which may or may not be here -- it is NOT documented. You may be able to find a YouTube video that explains how to operate the hypothetical appliance, but that does not mean that the appliance came with documentation. This is actually a big deal. When a game has a declining playerbase -- which has been true of EQ2 for years -- the last thing the game needs is a steep learning curve for new or (more likely) returning players. I think it's fair to say that the vast majority of players are looking to spend their time playing a game, not doing internet research about how to play a game.
And I'll agree to disagree. I consider patch notes documentation, pure and simple. Frankly, I wouldn't have any other idea how else to classify them. I also agree there are better ways to document in game and it would be good practice to do that. In this particular case, we're also not talking about a major issue. There is an error message that appears if you try to use an item without an agent. I think for many that is really sufficient. I know it is for me. Can always hope for better, but I'm not going to jump up and down in this one and say it's a big deal. I just don't think it is. Your milage may vary.
If you're read the whole thread -- and I am sure you have -- then you know this isn't just about the Cloak of Flames.
If you're not interested in using the forums and wiki to read up on the game, then this probably isn't the game for you.
Maybe that explains the declining population, the game isn't for them, so they turn around and leave. I can't speak for everyone, just myself. I would prefer that core and essential systems had functional documentation available within the game itself. Doesn't have to be full detail, just enough to get people going in the right direction. If a friend asks me to suggest an MMO to play, EQ2 is not on the list of suggestions. It's about time to unleash the almighty meteor.
