Underpowered class?

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by ARCHIVED-Vorgier, Oct 12, 2008.

  1. ARCHIVED-Xil Guest

    StaticLex wrote:
    With all the linked content in the expansion I'd think conjy would be pretty happy about their DPS now. I see conjy topping 20k on the big linked encounters now. Don't see Wiz and Warlock doin that heh.
    But it is true most summoner can't find groups unless they are mythical. But then again Warlock, Brigand, Ranger, and Brawlers all have the same issue. You pretty much have to group with support for your type of DPS or your DPS is gonna be garbage compared to easier DPS classes *cough asssassin cough* until you get most of your masters and gear that gets your crits and damage way up.
    In group content especially though, TSO gear has given summoners a pretty sizable boost to burst DPS. Even more so Conjy than Necro considering all the linked encounters and how rediculously high Conjy can parse on linked mobs. I've seen conjy pushing 25k on 3 and 5 mob encounters pretty regularly. So I don't understand yer reasoning with this post I guess.
  2. ARCHIVED-Davngr1 Guest

    summoner dps is doing fine now just try to get groups for shards and get the summoner gear. also try to get some pet focus gear.
    yes it's time to dust off your summoner and bring them out to play after you get him some TSO gear and AA, it's a fun class once again :)
  3. ARCHIVED-StaticLex Guest

    Xil wrote:
    There are probably a few more linked encounters in TSO than ROK, sure. Not nearly enough to make groups advertise for caster DPS like they do scout DPS though. That is beside the point anyway. A class isn't balanced just because it can do the same crappy damage to 4, 6, or however many mobs. Scouts DPS a mob for 8 or 9 K regardless of it being part of a linked encounter, so why are casters treated differently?
    I don't know what's up with your server but brigands and rangers (and really any scout in general) gets massive preferential treatment on mine when it comes to forming groups. They don't die half as easy as caster DPS, they aren't worthless when out of power, and they straight-up do more damage. Casters can do OK damage with a stacked group of illus + troub but why go that trouble when a scout can show up and wreck face by itself?
    Again, parsing on multi-mob encounters doesn't mean squat. Scouts parse the same regardless of how many mobs are there. If you divded the number of mobs in a linked encounter into the casters DPS for that encounter, you'd see them put up the same weak DPS that they do versus a single ^^^.
  4. ARCHIVED-Xil Guest

    StaticLex wrote:
    Every other encounter in TSO is linked for one. Yes RoK is sparse for linked encounters but in TSO you can't take 10 steps without finding a linked encounter. It's more than enough to make large amounts of AE damage highly desired in groups.
    And you math is a bit off on the scout DPS verses AE DPS. As well scouts in general as a DPS class. I know Mythical Assassin that have trouble breaking 7k without buffs of some kind in a group. Mostly because of agro and the fact that without the classes that buff their DPS they have no hate management beyond their own transfer and the tank's transfer (if they have one) and if the tank's DPS isn't high enough it's not going to matter.
    This is especially a large problem for Brigand and Ranger because they have no transfer and generate ALOT of hate even at around 3k to 4k DPS.
    Scouts don't parse 8 or 9k alone without mythicals. Most Assassin can't even do that in raid content with full melee buffs unless they have a Mythical. So you're exagerating just a bit there. Even Assassin still need Bard/Chanter to but up big numbers. Let alone all the other scouts that really can't even compare to Assassin DPS.
    I on the other hand as a Necro parse about 5k with no buffs and about 8k with just a troubador. With a troub and an Illy I can sustain about 10k without lifeburn. With Lifeburn spikes go anywhere from 12k to 15k depending on how long the fight is. Shorter fights are a little rough but any mage can adjust casting order to make use of a 30 second fight. It's harder for Necro and Conjy specifically but if I can do it without my mythical. So can you.
    I've cleared all but Stronghold now without any scout DPS and with group parses of 25k to 35k. And these numbers aren't achieved with Mythicals. Occasionally we'll have a Mythical Zerker tanking but that's about it.
    In group content Mages are dominant DPS classes. They can do more DPS with less hate and all of them offer utility of some kind now. Except Necro ... we just blow stuff up and complain when the tank kills our pet on incoming.
    Here's a couple examples of what I mean. This group has no scout DPS in it. Just Necro Illy SK doing all the major DPS. These are from Atrebe's. Both Named here interupt DPS so it's actually a bit lower than normal. But if I parse anything higher than this I get a handfull of people screaming "IMPOSSIBLE" and "Pic or it didn't happen" so I'll go with a more tame parse this time.
    And also note that neither one of these fights were using Lifeburn. If you've fought either of these mobs before you know that with a single healer the Necro would die if he/she Lifeburned on these encounters because of AE's that can't be blocked. Nothing Stops DPS like a nap halfway through the fight... These are also the two hardest mobs in Atrebe's.
    Sannik the Unfinished: (00:41) 1066813 | 26019.83 [SK-Death Touch-26066]
    Necro 327483 | 7987.39
    SK 301164 | 7345.46
    Chanter 170208 | 4151.42
    Bard 132525 | 3232.32
    Druid 87648 | 2137.76
    Guard 47663 | 1162.51

    Guard Captain Kelkrin: (00:39) 1126053 | 28873.15 [SK-Death Touch-23319]
    Necro 344623 | 8836.49
    SK 335420 | 8600.51
    Chanter 235340 | 6034.36
    Bard 106077 | 2719.92
    Guard 56235 | 1441.92
    Druid 48192 | 1235.69
    26k and 28k with no Scout DPS in one of the Harder TSO zones. And both are on very short duration fights.
    Who needs scout DPS in groups? No one. So don't hang yer head in shame quite yet. I've seen Conjy do 26k on linked encounters. You can see those numbers too if you want to take the time to learn how to do it.
  5. ARCHIVED-Arkinon Guest

    First off I cant believe im going to say this but Sarxil (Xil) is right. I have only been playing a Necro for about a month (betrayed from a conji) and with crap gear and no epic im rolling 3.5 to 4k (My high was 4.2k so far) on a raid. With Groups it can depend on the makeup but still can sit around the same. I have seen sarx post consistantly in the top 5 on the parse with an average around 5k and he isnt fabled out. There are occasions when he can hit 7 to 10k on raids named or trash. While I think Sarx has an ego the size of texas he unfortunatly can back it up (which is why no matter what I think about him he has a point). He may come across harsh and can make him look like an @$$ to some people, but he If he is willing to give advice on parcing better ill take it ego or not. Simply because I have seen him in action. If you looking for validation then there it is. But then again im still kinda new to the necro class so what do I know right. Just figuing out gear, AA and casting order has helped A LOT and Sarx even if indirectly has helped and proven at least to me we can put out respectable numbers WITHOUT the best gear.

    Edited for spelling
  6. ARCHIVED-cyric22 Guest

    Arkinon wrote:
    I thought he beat everyone but mythical'd assassins?
    If you want validation that he doesn't know as much about this game as he pretends check out the other active thread in this class forum.
    You'd get better advice asking someone else who understand proc mechanics, base damage vs. spell damage, and what piece of mind actually does.
    Did he ask you to post this?
  7. ARCHIVED-Xil Guest

    Enoa@Kithicor wrote:
    Actually I've asked people not to post beacause no matter what is posted it gets flamed by the same 4 or 5 people and the mods do absolutley nothing about it.
    And Mythical Assassins barely see 10k without lots of gear to back up those mythicals. You assume that any assassin with a mythical can parse 15 to 20k when in fact 99% of assassin with Mythical don't have full sets of VP gear and all the best jewelry and every piece of equipment with perfect adornments and the absolute perfect buffing it requires to hit those numbers.
    I know a couple with mythical and relatively decent gear that can spike to 10 to 12k (once in a while) but none that can sustain it. Most sit at about 6 to 8 and that's about it.
    And Ark knows I'm crude rude and socially unacceptable, and still took the time to post. I don't see anyone who even likes you standing behind anything you say... Or any of the other people that consistantly flame everything I post.
    I got people who think I'm a complete a$s speaking out on my behalf.
    That should really tell you something. But common sense is hard to find these days =P
  8. ARCHIVED-hellfire Guest

    Xil wrote:
    Your not getting flamed so why should the mods do anything.You are posting falsehood and misfacts and are being provein completely wrong on every point in every thread.......does this offend you...are you some how hurt by this?
    Think maybe your the one that needs to be reported cause really spreading false info should have repocutions delt when its shown repeatly that the info is false.
    hmmmm................
  9. ARCHIVED-Xil Guest

    Bigron@Unrest wrote:
    This a flame ron. Just in case you aren't aware of it. Flaming and flambait are the same thing. But you know that.
    Same with pretty much every single post you have ever responded with.
    And you and others here go out of your way to show others you are right. It has nothing to do with false information it never has. You just want to be right and feel validated and I understand. It's hard to maintain the illusion that these forums mean anything without somehow convincing yourself that you aren't wasting your time.
    But you proved me wrong none the less. But not in the way that you think. I should have just ignored you and pest and Naaomi and Dav. But I wanted to give you at least some credit.
    But all of you still glossed over the important things in order to try and discredit what I was saying. The little key details like the difference between single target and AE DPS, or even the fact that I had only picked up the robe for resists and wasn't using it prior to that night in Palace.
    Instead you focused in on what would support your theory that I was faking my parses somehow. But you probably don't even remember that part anymore. I don't think you were ever really paying attention to be honest. Well the others anyway. I think you jumped on the bandwagon after the fact.
    But either way I'll still be helping to make accurate changes to the summoner architype and you'll still go on being ignored.
    Much like every other troll in the history of internet forums nothing matters but the marking of territory and the winning of arguments. No matter how pointless they may be.
    Oh BTW the reason I was trying to get you guys to see that the Item was not overpowered was because instead of just making the item worthless the suggestion was to adjust the item so the power regen was as intended but leaving the damage proc as is so up and coming summoner weren't so drastically seperated in DPS from summoner who already have all the best gear the game has to offer. That tiny amount of DPS is nothing for you unless you are parsing on linked encounters of 5 or more mobs. And you know that. That's why you never posted a real single target account of the proc.
    Because as you well know the problem with summoner isn't the DPS top end. You parse 12k on single targets with a Conjy. The main issue for the "VAST" majority of summoner is until you get all the perfect gear summoner are worthless even for DPS. Mainly because our pets do less than half the DPS they are supposed to. And that's not even addressing the fact that all our Utility has been made trivial by scripting mechanics.
    I mean just to win an argument you specifically went to the item dev to get the item fixed right now. When until our pets DPS is fixed it was the only real bandaid the game had to offer. Even if it really did offer 500DPS to our Mage pets (which it's more like 350 or so for "NORMAL" players) that added 500 DPS to our pets is still a far cry lower than our pet DPS should be. That's why I tried to point out the whole semantics thing.
    I never once suggested that the Devs should fix the class with gear. The suggestion was to allow the gear to remain somewhat broken until the "REAL" fix was ready to happen. So people playing "NOW" aren't completely screwed over by having to wait another year for a fix.
    But you couldn't win the argument by paying attention to any of that. When you just skim posts looking for arguments you can win you miss all the intended meaning. Which I'm sure you will do yet again with this post. Just like you always have. And likely always will. But have fun being right. I hope it brings you happiness.
  10. ARCHIVED-Germs666 Guest

    Necros are in the toilet because the staff at SoE want them there for some reason unknown. Xil doesn't help us out because he is too busy trying to be the uberest necro ever. Well if 99% of the other necros can't parse like you, then we are still in need of SERIOUS attention.

    I really don't think it'd be difficult at all to fix summoners. Our cast timers and recovery times are WAY too long for the amount of Damage that is output. We shouldn't need to be dependant on Illy's and templars to cast at a decent rate.

    If that is too difficult then simply making our "scout" pets or mage pets deal some damage!
  11. ARCHIVED-cyric22 Guest

    Germs666 wrote:
    Well not to be a stickler... but we have no idea how much Xil parses cause he never puts up a zw of any meaningful zone but only stacked groups with lots of aoe damage that are short enough that either potm or pom is up a good portion of the fight.
    Cast time and recovery wouldnt' be the first things I would fix about necros but I agree with the gist of your post. More utility (hearts do not cut it anymore... but were very desirable in previous tiers) i think would be the priority. Even if necro's matched assassins on a zw parse.... the assassin bring way more utilty to a raid.
    Bigron@Unrest wrote:
    Disagreeing with you != flaming.
    Again... if you think the answer is A and everyone else thinks the answer is B.. the answer may in fact be B. But oh i forgot the people who post here are by chance the 5% of the playing population that disagrees with you... the other 95% that agree with you dont post on the forums.
    Edited: spelling
  12. ARCHIVED-Germs666 Guest

    I honestly don't feel that a necromancer should be putting up assassin or ranger DPS. That's fine with me but when running TSO instances, I'm being outparsed by SK's and chanters (sometimes) of the same level. I can out damage them once every 15 min when Undead Horde is up if I'm lucky.

    Tanks can wear plate,have high Hp/mitigation and are a necessity in every group. Should they really be outparsing ANY casters??
  13. ARCHIVED-hellfire Guest

    Germs666 wrote:
    That point is being handled. Tho after LU 51..................their dps will actually be better in Off stance i have heard.So is thats the case it might be better to bring another tank along instead another mage......and thats something i dont agree with.
  14. ARCHIVED-Xil Guest

    Enoa@Kithicor wrote:
  15. ARCHIVED-cyric22 Guest

    Well perhaps my post on gear fixes was a big ambigious. I identified three problems with necromancers: gear that doesnt' affect pets, inadequately scaled pet and our utility becoming useless. There are other problems but those are the big three.
    In about 5 minutes you can find about 10 threads that mention changes to gear or gear mechanics and how it should affect our pets. Gear that gave stats to pets, gear slots on pets (actually mentioed by you in your stickied post) and have our gear affect pets were all ideas posted in the various threads. Dev's chose to make gear that gave some stats to pets (at the cost of personal necromancer stats... which diminishes it's attractiveness). I never declared overpowered items available to only summoners was the fix.
    It's completely fine to figure out your max dps without the help of ACT and even without understanding game mechanics. But if that's what you do .. do NOT come preaching game mechanics and fighting about the same with people who do. If you don not understand how an item is affecting your spell damage do NOT claim you do and tell someone who does understand it they are wrong.
  16. ARCHIVED-Xil Guest

    Enoa@Kithicor wrote:
    But Eno you stumbled upon exactly what I have been trying to get at all along in your previous post as well.
    "If that is too difficult then simply making our "scout" pets or mage pets deal some damage!" The robe did exactly this and for the time being would have helped a lot of summoner who still feel they have the short end of the stick. But because the tooltip said it was supposed to do less damage that makes it wrong to add that damage to the pet... That seems like a pretty serious contradiction to me. Doesn't it seem that way to you?
    But the semantics are in the way. We all know our pets should do more damage. We all know that until summoner get the intended fix that's not going to happen.
    The robe doesn't add all that much damage to Necro Mage pets. The "ONLY" reason it adds so much to the Conjy pet's in those parses posted by others is because of buffs that modifiy the effect. Including but not limited to Plane Shift... which should have dawned on me much sooner.... But I never did claim to have much experience with Conjy.
    And I didn't argue that I know the calculations used to come up with the numbers ACT provides for me. The only thing I wasn't sure about was whether the PPM rate was modified by how many times you can use a spell per minute or by how many spells in the total spell pool can be used a minute. Which is what caused the "ZOMG recovery and recast are two different things /fail" comments. And it's silly because I just posted what someone else said in a different thread about it.
    But that brings us back to "nuh uh the car was green you don't know anything" fallacy.
    I just showed the parses I had and said look "it's doing this". I figured out why the hit count was rediculous by elimination. Explained it as best I could to the people who were confused why the hits were so high on the break down. Damage hits twice per proc and AE's multiply the count by each mob in the encounter. When you look at the power regen tab it shows the power ticks only once even if the damage procs as an AE. Pretty simple really. I just showed everyone what ACT says.
    How it turned into this "nu uh I'm right" BS is beyond my control. And I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to find me saying someone else is wrong in any post on any forum I have ever posted on let alone here.
    I've made fun of plenty of people for saying less than thought-out things but I tend to stay away from tossing around "wrong".
    And I have yet to read a single valid reason that any of these posters have come up with to take the damage away from the mage pets. The only remotely valid reason is that it's possible they use logs to compile a database of summoner performance... but that really wouldn't tell me enough to make an accurate assesment of any class let alone a detailed enough one to justify deploying a balance fix. There's too many human variables to consider.
    But the tooltip says .... Semantics (Lots of mistakes have ended up being glorious successes throughout history and in every form of engineering and design)

    But no item should have so much value.... Semantics (If the class is broken there's already a negative amount of value to make up for. So if you want to make a real value assessment you have to consider that in yer calculations)

    But then better gear isn't really better.... Semantics (the one robe in the game that's supposed to be better for summoner will not be seen by more than a tiny fraction of the summoner currently playing before the actual fix comes in) Edit: There might be 2 but I don't think the second one is summoner specific, and in either case only a handful of summoners would even know it exists let lone have it before the fix comes.

    But gear should not be used to fix the class... Semantics (the class isn't being fixed yet so any bandaid left on can be removed at a later time when the class is actually getting fixed)
    Did i miss any?
  17. ARCHIVED-Necrodeath79 Guest

    Why do you think you know better then all the other necro/conj what the robe SHOULD be doing, or how much dmg WE should be doing or how much dps this or that pet SHOULD be doing?
    Get a clue your wrong have been wrong, and always will be wrong. Please reroll a new class and troll there class boards. Im sick of it, when you get a red name then you can tell all of us what the robe, class, pets, and whatever else you have in that head of yours.
    Till then give it a rest.
  18. ARCHIVED-Germs666 Guest

    Maybe the devs think after GU51 we will actually be desired since there is no way we can pull aggro with our SUB PAR DPS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  19. ARCHIVED-Pales Guest

    Sicura wrote:
    Makes me wanna cry.
  20. ARCHIVED-Arkinon Guest

    Enoa@Kithicor wrote:
    Since you asked no he didnt. And on top of that I have seen first hand what he can do so I could give a ratonga's backside what you think. Your insinuation that im not sincere or straightforward in what I say reguardless of association is dissrespectful and insulting. All i know is what I see and I see a necro parsing in the top 5 consistantly (reguardless of the numbers) which I dont see anyone other Necros doing consistantly. I have stopped coming here for advice because All i see is a class complaing on how **** they are. I bought into it for a while and found that while yes we have some decent flaws BUT we are not as **** as people make us out to be. I could care less about all the other garbage we cant do. I am concentrating on the things we can! Given the fact I SEE what we are capable of I will do what I can to make myself better. My father had a saying "Your either part of the solution or your part of the problem " In this case discounting what someone says because you dont like them or think they are full of it without really trying it yourself to see what you may be doing wrong makes you part of the problem. Stop complaining and start doing then when you cant figure out why ask. Find the solution. If at that point you decide the data is wrong then you can call people on it. I could care less about the things he may not know but I am looking at the things he has proven (at least to me) that he DOES know. Until then... Until you take a hard look at YOUR faults as a player you dont have the right to insinuate im a liar.

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