Undead Horde

Discussion in 'Necromancer' started by ARCHIVED-Rothgar, Sep 2, 2010.

  1. ARCHIVED-Maamadex Guest

    Leveling up my necro, I remember when i got undead horde and thought hmm. Every other 65 spell my other toons got had some usefulness to them, and in some cases, like Plane Shift on my friends conjy, they were incredible. The corpse requirement is just plain stupid. People clear corpses out fast as lightning in most cases, and like others have said, it being a dumbfire spell on a 8 min recast is bad as well, considering how wonderful dumbfires are atm. I like the idea of just having a set number of pets being summoned without needing dead bodies heh. It was a neat idea to use the bodies of your foes and making them your minions, but not practical. In its current state I don't understand how anyone couldn't see how flawed it is heh.
  2. ARCHIVED-joseph Guest

    id say just make undead horde have a set amount of dumbfires. insitead of the whole nearby corpse thing.
    so say you make the corpses last longer liek 10 min , i doubt you would hear a raid leader say leave thosese corpses for the necro it helps their DPS..
  3. ARCHIVED-Dharkone Guest

    joseph wrote:
    We almost have the whole raid force helping us creating some form of dps why not have the raid leader give us a hand as well?? ;P
    Although the subject of this topic is misleading. I believe this isn't about fixing Undead Horde, this is about fixing the timers on corpses.
  4. ARCHIVED-Daelim Guest

    I like the kill count being added to Lich idea but its still going to be a useless spell that I will never cast. the cast time is to long for the minimal damage it does so you are ALWAYS better off casting something else instead. Instead of adding the body count to lich, why not turn undead horde into a buff and have it randomly proc a base number of minions plus one for each tick in the body count. At least then I wouldn't have to waste time casting it when I could be refreshing something equally useless like vampire bats...
  5. ARCHIVED-MackGee Guest

    Just incase ya'll didn't see the notes for the Test Server on Sept 20. It's a very nice start for my favorite dumbfire...
    • [Fan Faire Feedback] “Undead Horde” can no longer be dispelled.
    • “Siphoning of Souls III” should now grant the correct souls.
  6. ARCHIVED-Muris Guest

    They can't be dispelled, and this fixes it how? They still die to every AE the mobs sneezes out. Either remove the body requirement and just give us the full amount based on AA spent, or don't bother with it till you make Dumfire pets AE IMMUNE. That is the one of the major problems with them, you cast and poof they are dead, sometimes as soon as you cast the spell. They don't benefit from any of our stats, they melee like a level 1 warrior, and have little to no hit points to speak of. The spells got taken off my hotbar this expansion because every raid mob has an 10k+ AE it seems, so it's just a waste to cast them even when you have nothing else to cast.

    Turn it into Wake the Dead from EQ1, just let it be a pet for awhile, that would be more entertaining then the current cast and boom dead version we have now.
  7. ARCHIVED-Daelim Guest

    I did a lot of training dummy parsing last night just to see what happened. On the training dummy adding Undead horde to my rotation lowered my DPS by 1000 minimum every time I used it no matter where I added it in the rotation. Adding the other swarm pets (Not including undead horde) lowered my DPS by about 600. The only one that is actually worth casting is Vampiric Orb. I was surprised at how much damage that little guy actually put out and the fact that you can cast it before engaging in combat helps it out a lot...
  8. ARCHIVED-Garlin1 Guest

    Muris wrote:
    I agree, worthless waste of time making it immune to dispel. Half the mobs out there have some form of AE and/or riposte which destroys horde. In the end you have the "caster" dumbfires left and the rest are dead. Make all the dumbfires casters and maybe.

    Wake the dead would be great, oh hold on, they are letting coercers possess essence or whatever boss mobs now. Face it, the roundtable of devs always returns to the enchanter class because they don't know what to do with them. They decide on a path, utility, and then an outcry happens so they try and balance it again and well you get my drift.
  9. ARCHIVED-Germs666 Guest

    I'm so frustrated I just want to punch something! Undead Horde needs a serious revamp! The problem was not the fact that it could be dispelled. The problem is the LOW DPS/High recast means it's not worth casting!! (Necros actually do less damage now thanks to the pestilential rain nerf if you didnt notice)
    Great Job devs!
  10. ARCHIVED-Grimlich Guest

    Couldn't agree more with most of the things said in this thread. And as far as dumbfire pets being a derail here, that should say it all, the topic comes up constantly in every necromancer revamp thread ever made which should indicate to you by now that it is a serious problem. They have become completely useless which is very disappointing, especially since undead horde is supposed to be one of our better spells. I understand these things take time but this has been a valid complaint since pre ROK. I am personally getting to the point where I am just going to give up on trying to get you guys to fix this. I pay very good money 5 accounts to have these expansions and monthly fees. My main is a necro and I can say for sure I will be leaving game before the next xpac if this stuff doesn't get resolved. Dumbfire pets are a huge part of the Necro class and have been broken far too long. If a healers heal did not heal it would be fixed asap, basically who gives a crap about necros. Please get on the ball with this Sony. We have been more than patient in dealing with a spell that is both curable and destroyable and destroyed way too easily.
  11. ARCHIVED-Soul Crusher Guest

    Instead of fixing Undead horde, which in all honesty was a ok idea, but badly implemented and not really viable in any situation. Change it to a pet buff!

    Mortifer Complexo(Deadly Embrace) Last's 1 Minute(possible improvement through AA) 3 min Recast
    Tank - Increases base/potency/critical amount of Pet Taunts, Allows pet to Flurry, Increases HP/Mitigation by 25%, Attack and combat art damage by 50%.
    Scout - Allows pet to Triple attack, combat art and attack damage increased by 50%, Recast timers decreased by 50%
    Mage - Increases pet damage by 50%, Recast and casting timers decreased by 25%, Each spell cast will proc a % group heal based on damage done(This will be a great cure for necromancers current Lifeburn issues soloing)

    NOW this is just a rough idea i just concocted but it would be nice for us to be able to have a PROPER pet buff that we all would appreciate
  12. ARCHIVED-Davngr1 Guest

    Rothgar wrote:
    remove the "corps" mechanic from horde and instead put it on a conj communion natural timer. also drop lifeburn down to a 3 minute recast like elemental blast or boost it's damage by 45%.
  13. ARCHIVED-Soul Crusher Guest

    Davngr1 wrote:
    Even so, Ive seen EB in raids do almost 1 million damage, near instant damage and conjie doesnt have to worry about 100% aggro to himself, partially going to the pet. Where is the necro equivalent, in groups my LB will tick 14k on named/normal mobs in convervatory, and then i see a Conjie EB's for more than 50k a tick, and he doesnt have to worry about heals or possibly pulling ridiculously aggro and being just flicked and dying. Comparing both class's, its obvious one ability needs some major TLC or just a complete revision
  14. ARCHIVED-Cisgo Guest

    Indalecio@Befallen wrote:
    Actually, you have to compare EB to AD, Lifeburn is a pre-SoF ability. Yes, higher end geared conjurors are starting to eclipse 1 mil every 90 seconds with a Time-Warped Elemental Blast. The necro equivilant Accelerated Decay provides an extra "two ticks to dots" which doesn't fully "stack" with spells like UT. Speaking of Time Warp, the necro due to his low damage dots does not benefit from this buff like all the other DPS classes do.
    There is a multitude of reasons why the two summoner classes are unbalanced, I have been presenting them since SoF beta. It appears to me that the developers have thier own opinions and agenda when it comes to these classes or something would have been done by now. Asking about an ability like Undead Horde (Level 65) now when this ability has been an issue for years is a clear cut example of the lack of concern or understanding of the necromancer class. Presenting an excuse at the Fan Fair as to why Elemental Blast was made overpowered (suppose to terminate pet) is another example.
    The answer to summoner viabilty (after the brigand debuff plan was scrapped) was to give them Elemental Tox and throw a bunch of gear at them with pet stats. Without considering that the conjuror utilizes this pet gear much moreso than the necro. The necro cannot "buff" the pet like a conjuror and as a result the pet is approx 1/3 of his/her overall damage, the conjuror pet is roughly 2/3 of his damage. So as the conjuror obtains this plethora of Destructive Forces/Empowered Minion gear there is no mystery why the pet is hitting 1 mil with the EB ability. Now that even more gear has been introduced this week (T4 and new group zone) that number will continue to climb. The new T4 gear is just a mesh of the two sets, so now pet classes will gain ability mod, as well as the pet stats.
    I can go on and on about things like group utility imbalance (grp stoneskins compared to minor stat buff), 18% a tick necro health drain hindrances (Bloodcoil activated), no front-loaded damage, lower return on group buffs as compared to other DPS classes, single and group DPS inferiority to conjuror counter-part, etc. However, if the developers are just getting around to addressing Undead Horde, it maybe a few more expansions before we can expect any changes.
  15. ARCHIVED-Davngr1 Guest

    yea since ROK the necro class has deteriorated at a steady rate and has yet to rebound. conj have had several good abilities and game mechanics that have pretty much balance them but necro continues to be given dumb abilities and underpowered damage with over the top life penalties that NO OTHER class has to deal with.
    i've pretty much almost completely stopped playing my necro. not because i wanted to but instead because i was forced to by developers utter disregard for CLASS BALANCE.
  16. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Davngr1 wrote:
    Having just betrayed from a Conjuror to a Necromancer, I have to disagree with you there. I'm doing about the same amount of DPS i did as a Conjuror (situationally speaking), and I just do not see the issues regarding health drains with Lifeburn, Accelerated Decay, Lich, and Blood Pact that a lot of people complain about.
    The only three issues with Necros right now are:
    • Swarm pets are too frail, and haven't scaled up in damage alongside main pets
    • Necro debuffs are fairly useless
    • Accelerated Decay doesn't stack well with Upbeat Tempo, due to DoT mechanics and not being able to stack an unlimited number of dot ticks.
    That's discounting other specific problems that also plague Conjurors mind you.
  17. ARCHIVED-Cisgo Guest

    Xalmat wrote:
    I remember reading somewhere that you have not raided the Underfoot Depths. Running around on a necro solo or lite grouping/raiding you are not going to see many of the listed problems that plague this class. If you just betrayed you cannot possibly have drawn a definitive conclusion and debate players that have been with this class for up to six years and currently attempt to raid hard mode/end game encounters on a nightly basis.
    I appreciate your attempt at helping, god knows the necro class needs a voice, and you are very vocal on these boards. However, a few days of playing a necro and then coming here disputing others is just plain silly. My advice to you is that if you truely want to "help" the class, get some gear, raid with mobs that dispel, and AoE every 10 sec. Try to keep yourself and your pet alive while dodging those same AoE's with your life drains. Raid with other DPS classes that are geared and do "much more with less" and are currently blowing away the necro class in DPS. Raid with some geared conjurors counter-part pumping out 1+ mil EB's every 90 sec, and you will find that a necro cannot do anything remote to that. Raid with Time Warped mage groups as a necro and hope your master strike is applicable, because that is your biggest registering hit to be applied by that buff.
    No one ever to my knowlege disputed that the necro is a not a very good soloer. With tained heals and lich it is one of the better soloing classes. These complaints are mostly from raiding/PvP necromancers and these issues are exacerbated as you raid harder encounters. This is what you must do before you come here and claim "all is well and equal", in your 1-3 days of necro testing and dummy bashing.
    Read my above, conjurors are expanding thier DPS at a much greater rate than the necro due to the SoF pet gear and the way they make much better use of said gear than the necro. Unless you have this gear, you cannot properly make a definitive conclusion as to the conjuror/necro DPS balance. In reference to your life drains, this is not only an issue with the raiding necros, it is also an issue with the PvP necros. Go into Battle Grounds and see what you can do with those buffs active, you will not last very long. In reference to your swarm pets comment they are usless to the raiding necro, once you raid some higher end/hard mode content you will see this.
    I happen to have the luxury of playing/testing both summoners, (and for more than a few days). I can see the issues and the positive and negatives on side by side comparisons. I have stated these and other issues of imbalance since beta and I have watched some get worse as this expansion rolls along. There are clearly several balance issues that the necro class suffers from, whether you are aware of them or not. I just hope you dedicate some time to explore the class, get the high end gear, the buffs, the PvP time and compare that with both classes and then make a more experienced, educated, analysis. Either way, kudos for your attempt and thanks.
  18. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Wow, no offense but could you be any more patronizing?
  19. ARCHIVED-Cisgo Guest

    Xalmat wrote:
    I am sorry if you took what I said in the wrong way. I do appreciate what you are doing, however I feel that you need to spend alot more time into a class before you draw conclusions. I am always open to debates and am in no means trying to demean or patronize anyone posting here or on any other forums. Again, sorry if you you took that as my intention, or I came accross that way.
    These necro issues can be very frustrating for the few that remain loyal to the class all these years in the hopes for positive changes and balance.
  20. ARCHIVED-Germs666 Guest

    Cisgo you are always 100% right on with every necromancer concern. I've been reading your posts since beta and also contributed to the beta boards myself. (albeit near the end)
    We never got an explaination why EB had it's recast shortened when it was clearly going to be overpowered in beta. Just read the pvp boards it's not just jealous necros complaining about that spell.
    It seems that the game mechanics are holding our dps bacK. Low damage initial ticks mean we get the least benefit from: Spell Double attack,Potency,Crit Bonus.
    Since our pets also have low damage dots, they dont recieve equal benefits from pet gear when compared to conji pets.
    Theres a huge laundry list of broken/useless spells but my main issue is DPS.
    Conjis can out DPS necros on AOE and single target fights now. I'm not cool with that.

    Wizzy = Single target damage advantage
    Warock = AoE damage damage advantage
    Conji = Single target/Aoe damage advantage
    Necro = ???????

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