Uber Summoner DPS

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Vogie, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Entropy Well-Known Member

    I was totally going to reply with basically exactly what you said, but thankfully you jumped In first. I have had the "Math." conversation in a bunch of threads lately. It's getting old. I love it when devs don't handle the forums with kid gloves.
  2. Easiette Member

    Parses and info that had no comparable data and had no direct relation to what i posted, topped off with a nice STOP CRYING message, what do you expect? who is ragging here

    Several hours of testing on a dummy with a stack of brew's and posting my results is no information??

    well ................................................................................................................................................ and besides ...................................................................................................................................................so thanks you for your input.

    You are barking up the wrong tree, i'm not one of those 10 emails/tells u get each day asking you for advice.
    And i know you are smart enough to know what i mean so i'm not really sure what you are trying to say here.

    Just because you are smart enough i had to question your motives for posting those parses, unless you think/know that each of the other t1 dps in those parses used the same amount of pre-clicks and are able to benefit from them in the same way, which is obviously not the case, yet you present them as "proof"

    U counter my post (about dumbfire damage that took me quite some effort) with a bully post filled with parses that are completely unrelated to my post and only show how good you are compared to other dps (with hammer or not)

    Then besides the fact you (and your friends) say that dumb fire damage has nothing to do with the "debate" you humor me and post breakdowns of parses that had the damage of dumbfires increased with pre clicks and mythical hits and whatnot proving they are still awesome.

    And even though you completely wave away my arguments you DO "like" posts from your new guild's conjurer argumenting exactly the same.

    I post "real" testing data about dumb fire damage, which are trashed (unwarranted) deemed off topic but you DO appreciate the information a Dev's post which is "only" about dumb fire damage.

    No Ratitzx, you are showing little integrity which really disappoints me, because back when you were in Mojo i thought you were actually a nice guy...

    You... math guy, are you really comparing pre clicks that affect the damage output on a fight for only the 1st 10 seconds by 125% or more with the use of a helm?
    And..at no point have i mentioned that i use these tools or not but are you really calling me a lazy whiner? wow you must be really good friends with each other.

    Because these forum discussions seem a reference base with valuable information for the relevant people (devs) and i witness "intelligent and respected posters" filling pages with skewed data and bullying everyone else in a thread concerning my class then, even though i don't really want to, i am forced to come here and present, from what i (and others) think, valid arguments against them, so you can bully me all you want, which i will take personal but i can take it.


    PS: And you can rub your own noses into the changes that the recent patch brought....
    Ashandra likes this.
  3. Yards Well-Known Member

    You still never answered the question of, if summoners are competing and topping parses, then what relevance does comparing dumbfire damage to their other spells. The only response you came up with was " its our class defining ability ". To me it's common sense if a class is already topping parses and competing for top dps, then further raising the damage of their abilities is going to put them further ahead of everyone else.
  4. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Easiette - It's not just the clicky charms. It's everything you can do to improve your DPS, that so many people in so many guilds (even in progression guilds too) just ignore. Temp adorns, infusing, the mushroom clickie off the vendor, investing the time or plat to refine your gear/runes/adorns/reforging/etc. Taking the time to do extensive testing on abilities and efficiency; heck, just understanding the concept of efficiency and why cast order matters. Having a spreadsheet to help inform gear choices instead of just using gut feelings.

    You aren't in that lazy crowd. Most of the people posting in this thread aren't in that crowd. However, there are a LOT of people missing out on a LOT of small opportunities to improve their DPS because they just do the bare minimum to appear ready to be part of a heroic group or raid force.
    Beee and Cefur like this.
  5. Mrmacky Active Member

    Can we just nerf, then buff summoners every other week. This way everyone's happy 2 weeks a month
    Ratitz likes this.
  6. Ratitz Active Member

    So what your saying is that because the other t1 dpsers don't do the things they can do to maximize their potential, MY parse is invalid?

    I liked his posts because they were humorous, not because I agreed with them.

    I'm still a nice guy. Just not on the forums.
    Kraeref likes this.
  7. Beee Well-Known Member

    This is an "optical" Illusion. if you look on the timestamps you will notice that sometimes the duration between 2 spells is more than a second. That's why you sometime only see 4 "seconds" in ACT but the timestams have 6 seconds range. But there are only hits eg in second 1,2,4 and 6
  8. Easiette Member

    "Mis" understood, YOUR parse is beautiful, but the point you try to make with it isn't. I cannot determine if the other dps are or aren't doing everything to max their potential but i can say that some classes simply "can't" maximize their potential during the pre click phase or some short fights for that matter, at least not like summoners and maybe BL can. don't keep twisting my words.
    Forgive me for repeating myself but "their" mechanics are the handicap, the fact some classes actually need a lot more skill is their handicap (no offense intended), lag is their handicap, itemization was/is still their handicap.

    I've been preaching it before the nerf, and now after the nerf, that balancing classes around those handicaps and even more so around the use of two readily available items, with effects that are arguably more effective then a super rare mythical hammer (especially on the short fights), is wrong.
    We (summoners) would have to get nerfed back to the stone age, because as you say, despite the huge nerf, we were still competing. (Although i heard some dps were able to compete with summoners before the nerf, so where does that actually put us now?)

    And of course i use those tools as well, as should every dps use every possible tool, but because summoners had a near unparalleled arsenal to use them with, most summoners crushed every parse, even without the need of skill, and yeah although we might have enjoyed that, me and i'm certain lots of other summoners regret that these tools ever entered the game.

    But if they "have" to be in game what would be a better solution instead of nerfing summoner's class defining abilities up to a point where their usage becomes questionable? I mean i gave you some raw numbers putting them close or at levels of our normal spells but knowing what the nerf actually consists off you can assume that the more temps, stats, buffs and fervor we actually stack on ourselves the less efficient there usage will become in comparison. Not to mention their lack of proc potential.

    So how about: remove the persistence of those effects after unequip and make casting instant, reduce reuse and put them on charms with decent stats, so each dps class can at least attempt to use them when their dps mechanics allows for max potential. It wont fix the other "handicaps" though but i should tread carefully, if this would ever happen we may have to get un nerfed again...

    As a side note: after the recent patch where dumbfire shared stats have supposedly increased from 70% to 82% i ran some similar tests and expected, because of the additive multiplication, a bit more then the mere 15% extra damage they are doing. /hide
  9. Xalthazar New Member

    I thought they were nerfed three weeks ago down to 30% shared stats...and now brought up to 42%. Which one is it?
  10. Ratitz Active Member

    They were at 100% share.
    They were brought down by 30%. 100%-30%=70%
    Yesterday they were brought back up by 12%
    They are now at an 82% share.
    0.82(potency)x0.82(crit bonus)x0.82(fervor)=swarm pets are now doing 55% of the dps they were from when all things were at 100% share.
    Math and how does it work.

    I completely agree. Why they chose to put these items in, I don't know. All I'm saying is that everyone should at least be attempting to use them, because if you don't try, you cant succeed.

    fair point. an alternative option to fixing this was not to nerf summoners, but to buff the classes that were so obviously lacking.
    The devs obviously took the faster route.That was their decision to make, and we have to cope with what the biproducts were. Some people could not, and that sparked the reaction that we are now 22 pages into discussing.

    another fix. this would have to take a bit more time to balance, but if done correctly it would be great. I agree.
  11. Kraeref Well-Known Member

    After a patch necros are back on top in all type of fights. Congratulations folks! Seriously congratulations.
  12. Mrmacky Active Member

    Lol are they doing a billion and half on weapon of war? If not....
  13. Stimps Member


    I don't see how 12% can account for that much of a bump
  14. Ratitz Active Member

    Its 12% potency, crit bonus, and fervor.
    If you look at it this way (i believe something similar was posted earlier), its bigger than it appears.

    Pets were 70% sharing before wednesday.
    0.70(potency)x0.70(crit bonus)x0.70(fervor)=0.343
    Swarm pets were doing 34% of their original dps (compared with a 100% share)

    The stat sharing values were increased by 12% (70+12=82)
    Today, swarm pets do 0.82x0.82x0.82= 55.13% of their original dps (compared with 100% share)
    going from 34% dps to 55% dps is about a 61% increase from post-nerf to post-the-buff-after-the-post-nerf

    On average, swarm pets (all combined) on my conjuror were about 35% of my dps (post nerf)
    61% of 35% is a 21% increase in my overall parse.
    its a pretty decent chunk
    Laiina likes this.
  15. Twisty Well-Known Member

    presumably there is another multiplier in there for main stat
  16. Ratitz Active Member

    main stat was not affected by the patch

    from july 7th update notes.
  17. Widem Active Member

    I am not following your process for determination.

    You agree that balancing around a few items and abilities is not the way to create healthy long term mechanics, yet these are included in all of the data sets which are used for determining where classes are in relation to each other.

    I don't think anyone contests that the data being described is correct, more how relevant is it really.

    A lot of these parses are also on mobs who have absolutely no raid target value. I don't care about that data. It is not surprising to me that I don't see mushroom parses, simply b/c dps hits a stonewall, but for the same reason why does a 20 second fight matter?

    Right now I think that itemization mechanics are so FUBAR and the future development plans for how that unfolds are so uncertain, compounded with so many irrelevant raid encounters, it might be near impossible to determine what it takes to create long term dps balance. We are trying to unwind years of bad decisions in a thread manifesting itself as summoner dps issues.
  18. Ratitz Active Member

    I agree with you on the itemization. It's in a very bad spot.
    The reason i put in 20 second parses is that most of the fights that are 20 seconds long are the only ones that are completely unhindered of all stoneskin mechanics, dps holds, etc. Of course there are the select few that are longer that are better for determining dps balance, but as far as this thread went (which was about summoners and their swarm pets) was it gave a good comparison for swarm pets and summoner spike dps vs other classes.

    The fact that class balance is geared around 1 or two items is completely absurd, and needs to be addressed in the expansion.
  19. Stimps Member

    Tonight is a good night to do some raid testing folks, lets see some data
  20. Mrmacky Active Member

    I'm waiting