Uber Summoner DPS

Discussion in 'Mages' started by Vogie, Aug 8, 2016.

  1. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    Stop hurting those beastlords
  2. Kioske Well-Known Member

    When the summoner comes to the thread and posts his parses beating the crap out of the other T1's and tells everyone to stop crying, you don't really have much of a leg to stand on anymore. Bravo Ratitz, thank you.

    Why would you balance the game based on the lower end of it? Content doesn't get balanced around top end guilds, that's why guilds like Revelations clears half of the raid content on the very first day of the new expansion, but the classes? Absolutely you should balance them around their potential, not their averages. Learn to max your toon and you too can be balanced around.
    Laiina likes this.
  3. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    Traditionally with each new expac they tinker with classes again so in 9 ish weeks there will be new threads once testing starts you will get to gob off all over again :)
  4. Laiina Well-Known Member

    Nah, that makes too much sense. I always go for the conspiracy theory one.
  5. Karsa Active Member

    I'm deeply wounded...P
  6. DoomDrake Well-Known Member

    Depends ... if I go single target and no reset kicked in ?
    Lets count 4 temps around 5 second, 6-5-4 (another 3.5 second or so) go invisible and hit 3 primal another 1.5s (lets assume 4th did not reset) hit 2 (1s) go shroud of shadow 2.5s and hit first primal another second so with little or no lag we talking about 15 seconds or so to blow ST chain
    If 4th reset add another second or so if lag outside of mark low that will add another several seconds
    For AoE chain pretty much same except 4th reset (for sonic) will add say about 2 seconds
    So give or take with all temps and reset of 4th its about 20second
  7. Easiette Member

    You must have a very low opinion about summoners, i am certain that any half decent summoner will know exactly how their class spells work..
    But to humor you, our 5 min (not 22.5 sec like your apocalypse) reuse horde does about 4x the damage of our 4.5 sec reuse encounter spell, our 30 sec reuse awaken grave does only 2x the damage of our 12.5 sec reuse Blue AE spell (which is the very last one used on AE fights, if at all...)

    If you read my post with a bit more attention instead of hoping you will see that each example represents total damage for a single cast and that's exactly how i did my tests.

    You speak and laugh to quick, they(we) never said summoners are doing less damage then before, but proportionally, dumbfires are doing less damage then before

    using every opportunity to advertise how amazingly awesome you are...

    (And besides the point but why are 3 of them linked encounters where summoners excel? The golum may be the only relevant parse you have posted to date and wheres the BL)

    With "at least" reading posts before u spit out your generic "summoners are fine, close tread" comments. Since when did you become a moderator?

    On purpose i did not refer in any way if i'm pleased or not about where i find myself on the parse, the summoners position on the parse is skewed at the moment because the arguments mentioned at the end of my previous post.

    And although it was very likely not his intention but this:

    is actually making my point...at the moment most other dps classes cannot perform at their max potential for those same arguments.
    And because of it summoners, atleast necros, have their class defining abilities reduced to little more then lag generators, hence my choice for the all so popular word "broken"

    Fix lag!
    Remove pre-clickies!
    (why? if everything is balanced as u preach)
    Fix scouts!!

    Balance things out....
  8. Yards Well-Known Member

    So what you are saying is they boosted temp pets, and all the summoners in the entire game were awesome players so they were destroying all other t1 classes because all other t1 classes are bad players. I guess that could be possible however highly unlikely. But it doesn't explain how if all summoners are good players, why are there still some that can compete and top parses, where as the rest are crying the class is terrible now.
    DoomDrake likes this.
  9. Arieva Well-Known Member

    Oh darn..and here I thought you might actually be someone that bases opinion on actual experiences with me or my guild. Some random that joined and dropped after one raid eh? In other words just another troll that likes to discredit and insult folks based on no real evidence. Got it!
  10. Ratitz Active Member

    Boast parse #1

    Boast parse #2

    Because it's boasting to show that me AND ANOTHER SUMMONER are both competing on parses.

    Lets shed some light on something. If you find out that one of your abilities is suddenly doing less damage than the other abilities you have (cough cough)(lifeburn) guess what you do.....
    Ill give you a hint
    (stop casting it)

    And I never once preached that everything was balanced. I simply said that summoners were brought from 30% ahead of everyone else to in line with everyone. God forbid that's a bad thing.

    And not to derail the thread, but now that scouts can cap crit bonus, they are actually performing evenly or above mages, despite lag issues.

    Back on topic.
    You said that you don't know how things on conj work out. Let me shed some insight as to how much of our parse is swarm pets these days, because apparently you don't raid with any competent conjuror (either that or don't know how to look at another players parse. but you seem like a smart guy, so I'm going with the former)

    (03:03) The Forge Golem: 3307483573 Hike-Fatal Followup-2,373,049,485
    Hike | 479535197 assassin with both ethereals and hammer.
    Inuf | 439990995 conjuror with hammer
    Ratit | 415481081 conjuror without hammer
    Cloud | 400616329 a truly exceptional illusionist with RTT items and a cloak
    Devor | 355873590 necromancer without hammer
    Anglo | 190288442 undergeared ranger
    Suade | 170165694 illusionist with cloak
    Skitt | 121804760 brigand
    Fille | 100784779 dirge

    On that fight, which is widely considered a good single target damage judge, the breakdown of my parse was as follows:
    According to this, swarm pets are still worth casting. They just do balanced damage. Now lets put the hammer argument into perspective:
    Different conjurors, same fight. Lets take a look at the necro in the raid. (keep in mind, I'm looking at 3 different summoners with about the same skill and gear level)
    Wheres the beastlord? he is taking some time off because of real life issues, but ill link a breakdown of an older forge golum parse just to fill your needs.
    (02:15) The Forge Golem: 4591989372 Firamas-Draconic Breath-4,525,658,614
    Firam | 875539761
    Ratit | 538200917
    Hike | 536384979
    Inuf | 501162490
    Cloud | 439939841
    Devor | 391826168

    Different parse. This also disproves your completely inane argument that I am boasting. If I were boasting, why didn't I link this parse earlier, because I beat 2 people with hammers on this one.
    Beastlord breakdown:

    And like I said earlier. Summoners are balanced among the other tier 1 dpsers, with the exception of a beastlord with a hammer. You expect me to compete with that??

    My respective breakdown of the same parse, just to give another perspective on how swarm pets are indeed not broken:

    So like I said:
    You guys are making this forum post look like Louisiana right now, except with salty tears, not storm waters.
  11. Ashandra Well-Known Member

    My swarms still do less then when they were originaly touched for an alt you seem to know a lot about every thing guess you can always play yr main if this class starts to choke bring your alt over and play with mrmacky atm every thing is out of whack . Makes me laugh when ever some one has a view there attacked by you.
  12. Ratitz Active Member

    Well no, I'm pretty sure most of Easiette's post was directed to myself or to kioske. I was just responding with as much proof as I could fit into one post.
    And as far as alts/mains go, I don't want to not know what I'm talking about. Then i'll sound like an idiot, and no one wants that.
    Any toon that I am spending my time on I will learn to the fullest extent of the class. That way when people come to me with questions (which they do, I get like 10+ tells/mails a day about class questions) I can answer them correctly. Forgive me for having a justified opinion.

    Hey don't bash on people that join a guild then leave after one raid!! they might have real life stuff, like school!! (lol)(I did this to ari one time)(lol)
  13. sycla Active Member

    Going by what you post and i agree that summoners being ahead of everyone by 30% was a bad thing and looking at the BL parse he seems to be doing 30% over the rest( and that 30% holds true with all the good BL's i go up against). So do you think they should be bought in line with rest of t1 dps?
    and also to the two crazy guys on this thread there is no where on any post that i have said i am not happy with my dps..the only issue i had was that they limited pet sharing stats instead of tweaking around with base damage of swarms.i have no idea of how they limited the pet sharing but if it some hard cap then as we get better gear we wont be able to keep up.
  14. Laiina Well-Known Member

    Why did you quote his entire post, with the 2 pages of graphics and all? Do you know how to edit?
    Kioske likes this.
  15. Kioske Well-Known Member

    Who said anything about a hard cap on the damage they do? They never fully explained what they changed (As is per normal with this group of Devs). It could be that the stat sharing is capped at 50% share ratio instead of sharing 100% of stats, so it would scale with you as you get better gear. In no way shape or form is there a HARD CAP on the damage dumbfire pets do.

    Beast Lords are broken, everyone knows they do 30% more damage than everyone else with equal gear and equal skill. They'll be put in line when the Devs get to it. They're the flavor of the expac, last expac you couldn't find one to group with, this expac, you can't get into a PUG without there being one.

    Anyone that says that their dumbfires are doing less now than they were before they were ever adjusted is just not being truthful. Before the fix those dumbfires were middle of the road damage, and as you can tell by Ratitz' parse, if you add up all the times his dumbfire (Communion shows up 3 different ways) shows up, then you can tell it is his hardest hitting spell
  16. Veta Well-Known Member

    Since he does raid with SN, I am not sure how he is basing the class is balanced off rawr parses instead of one of the top conjs versus 2 t1 scouts that have been "crackin' necks and cashin' checks." Only thing those parses seem to do is either: A. boast, B. Show hammer does nothing for conjurors, C. Conj with hammer is possibly bad or D. All of the above.

    So many variables can skew parses such as pre-click charms. Hike uses 1, Ratitzx uses 2, Inuf may only use 1 but has setup for 2.
  17. Easiette Member


    Is that really what u are understanding from my post? that i say every non summoner are bad players??

    I'm not even gonna repeat myself so that you don't actually have to go back a few pages and actually read my post, which is in plain english.

    It's not just one ability, its most class defining abilities, i can live without lifeburn (have done since long ago) but don't blame me for not following your advice when half of my arsenal suddenly have become questionable.
    At the moment the only viable reason to use blighted horde and awaken grave is the fact they can be cast before hitting temps, but i'm still unsure about the net result.

    It is a bad thing if it is done for the wrong reasons

    So they weren't performing evenly because they couldn't cap crit bonus?
    -2k CB vs 3k CB results in 33.3% more total damage output..

    So they would perform "way" above mages if it weren't for lag issues?
    -Respectable scouts have said it themselves, they'd be doing up to twice the damage if they could get their chains off the way they wanted.

    Finally u understand my reasoning...

    It is neither, and thank you for trying but i cannot use raid parses to find out what damage a single cast of your dumbfire does, out of habit summoners (including me) are still using temps to increase their damage, hence my testing on a dummy with as little difference in modifiers as possible.
    And looking at your breakdowns it does look that necro's dumbfires have been nerfed harder, but yeah, too hard to tell.

    What would interest me is to see how your dumbfires stand in relation to eg. crystal blast, supposedly soulrot's counter part although i notice it isn't used very often (as was my soulrot till after the nerf)

    Besides the point I've been trying to make but you are forcing me to ask: same skill and gear? i must be missing something, how can u do the same damage as a conjurer with a hammer?

    Let me make an educated guess, either they have worse gear and/or skill or they aren't using the same caliber pre clickies if at all.

    Maybe posting it didn't really help your argument, but now you got to post it anyway :D

    I suspect (but i am not all knowing like you) that BL (with a full bar of savagery) like summoners are less sensitive to my previously stated arguments then other dps, because why aren't the other two hammers up there doing the same damage?

    We are mages, and since ToT and beyond, game mechanics and itemization have led to a point where speccing as a mage is the "only" way to go for any dps, but not every dps rolled into this as easy as mages have.
    Not just that, but lag handicapping dps class mechanics, pre clicks favoring "easymode" summoners and shorter and shorter fights it was bound to create large gaps between them. Solution: nerf the class thats on top instead of addressing the "real" issues
  18. Mrmacky Active Member

    Ok.... our ranger isn't that far off our beastlord and he doesn't have a hammer

    The ranger that is.. and if he betrayed he would also do about the same dps as he would on a ranger.. all the parses are biased towards your own guild. The only issue with summoners was that to do their high dps required less effort vs other added which is where everyone cried nerf cause they couldn't compete now while not playing themselves at 100%... before the nerf all 3 dps scout classes couldve competed and even best on the longer burn fights..wizards with a hammer could've done the same..warlocks are not that far off either the nerf made 0 sense
    Ratitz likes this.
  19. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Yep, and this isn't a unique situation. Your beastlord is even better geared than me (he's likely best worldwide... not sure what's going on in EU/Russia though) - but I'm close. Exceptionally well geared BLs are solid DPS, as they're supposed to be (caveat: in feral stance, obviously), but it's not like they are crushing the parse in every guild and on every encounter. There are tons of variables that go into class potential, and people who just see someone else's parse and whine about something are somewhere between daft and straight up ignorant.

    Kudos to your ranger for hanging close without the hammer. Hammer makes so much of a different for T1 scouts; it's just ridiculous. Mages get a sizable benefit, but it's night and day for scouts (same thing with fervor/reset runes). BLs and Predators derive a ton of their DPS from chains (or casting a few hard hitting abilities) - it's no surprise that ferver/reset procs benefit "bursty" classes the most.

    Another example of "context is everything." A representative sample of many serious progression guilds will show variance in class potential... because people have different gear, different attitudes towards how much they want to spend on infusing, different desire to min/max with temp adorns, clickies, etc. When something as simple as one item (Ire-dread) can make a world of difference, it's kind of hard to establish an accurate baseline.

    Parses can also be manipulated - the poster chooses which fights to display and what to leave buried in their ACT history. It's not hard to mislead people by cherry picking things that only support your argument.

    DBG has access to what matters - tools to provide a full, global performance perspective on each class, in every combat situation, with every gear level.

    Really, you've tested this against a bunch of really well geared BLs who know how to play their class well? Where is this magical sample size that you've managed to personally come across? I'm surprised, because there really aren't a ton of BLs with exceptional gear out there. There's a growing number of them with good (not great) gear, because FOTM apparently, but they aren't really performing until they get ethereal procs and hammer.

    I'm actually happy that people think BLs are FOTM. More people running around doing mediocre DPS on undergeared BLs just helps prove my point that it takes exceptional amounts of gear to put out exceptional numbers. Keep going, folks, help expand that sample size and feed the distribution curve!

    Heh, you're saying this like it's an easily verifiable thing. You've seen two parse posts (one from me, one from Ratitz) from Rawr where I did 20-30% more than the next person. What you didn't see is all the parses before I got raid gear upgrades, got my ethereal runes, bought a bunch of ethereal items, and spent appx 3 fajillion plat infusing everything with physical+plat infusers. Those parses had me lagging significantly behind. I started with the Ire-dread, because I was able to steal it from my warlock; other than that, it's been a long, slow climb to get to the top of the gear mountain.

    There's a whole hell of a lot that goes into the "equal gear and equal skill" supposition. It's important to understand the nuances of relative gear levels, player skill, relative raid group composition, and encounter/script dynamics. I'm overjoyed that everyone has such a good read on the global population of beastlord players so we can control for all those variables, amirite?


    This post is not meant to be insulting or inflammatory to anyone I quoted. Some of you made great points, and I took the opportunity to explore them. There's just so much emotion behind class balance discussions (nothing new, and will never change), I just want people to start thinking more logically and mathematically. There are multiple independent variables at play that can each make a 25%+ (multiplicative) difference when it comes to final DPS output. Changing one of them can change a lot on a parse; tweaking two or more can change the entire discussion.

    Have a nice day, folks, and keep those fervor procs up IRL. We're all better off for it when we have a community of educated people that care about the game more than they care about their specific class.
    DoomDrake likes this.
  20. Entropy Well-Known Member

    Alright, since everyone has a minor hard-on for parses, let's explore another branch of this dark alley. I'll try to provide some context for the ones below, so we can all learn some lessons. These are in reverse chronological order, over multiple months of raiding.

    Lesson: Target changes and DPS holds during chaotic scripts aren't fun for anyone. Also, dying due to script is no fun and can significantly affect several people's parses.

    (01:30) Fergul the Protector: 1536523659 Firamas-Draconic Breath-1,063,754,034
    Firam | 234764K
    Devor | 231058K
    Ratit | 221206K
    Cloud | 143110K
    Skitt | 126042K
    Inuf | 117767K
    Sheph | 63630K
    Meowm | 54163K
    Marib | 52602K
    Hike | 51437K

    Lesson: Mimicry is amazing. Also, burst fights can be incredibly skewed.

    (00:41) Kreelit, Caller of Hounds: 5865338179 Cloudiest-Temporal Mimicry-2,665,022,810
    Cloud | 927399K
    Firam | 872201K
    Inuf | 594751K
    Marib | 486653K
    Hike | 471667K
    Vladi | 416944K
    Skitt | 387068K
    Devor | 308330K
    Ratit | 303157K
    Mellz | 200929K

    Lesson: Not getting force targeted at all (not even once) when the rest of your fellow DPS is constantly target-locked to an add they can't DPS because fighter adds are up for like 75% of the fight is a lulzy situation. I still don't know why I never got force-targeted, but the results are pretty dramatic.
    (06:08) Chel'Drak the Ancient Lord: 2685676662 Firamas-Noxious Grasp-5,170,434,882
    Firam | 720957K
    Hike | 350198K
    Inuf | 283467K
    Stimp | 278134K
    Suade | 164950K
    Uvish | 135386K
    Vladi | 92270K

    Lesson: Burst fights don't mean much. Also, getting locked out (bubbled) due to script mechanics is bad for DPS.
    (00:26) Karith'Ta: 3977828930 Hike-Assassinate-1,865,265,453
    Hike | 901160K
    Ratit | 656258K
    Mellz | 413309K
    Cloud | 385239K
    Devor | 361492K
    Inuf | 338585K
    Skitt | 247578K
    Meowm | 95173K
    Fille | 69686K
    Sheph | 68630K
    Sinni | 64050K
    Firam | 58505K

    Lesson: Burst fights don't mean much. Go go assassins and mimicers.
    (00:38) Kiernun the Lyrical: 2911610467 Hike-Fatal Followup-2,932,785,549
    Hike | 478102K
    Firam | 374361K
    Cloud | 323863K
    Inuf | 308671K
    Marib | 240042K
    Ratit | 229246K
    Mellz | 195117K
    Devor | 194278K
    Skitt | 136137K

    Lesson: Extremely short burst fights don't mean much.
    (00:21) Cronnin the Axe: 5564710016 Firamas-Noxious Grasp-4,065,777,858
    Ratit | 1026063K
    Firam | 985477K
    Cloud | 805674K
    Hike | 632565K
    Inuf | 595099K
    Devor | 374152K
    Skitt | 369020K

    Lesson: Slightly longer fight, all local adds pulled at once with named. Almost got outparsed by a post-nerf conjuror without a hammer. Drama!
    (01:05) Kreelit, Caller of Hounds: 3891905937 Firamas-Draconic Breath-1,682,147,219
    Firam | 504500K
    Ratit | 498267K
    Hike | 458699K
    Inuf | 374390K
    Devor | 306761K
    Cloud | 298979K
    Skitt | 259827K
    Suade | 231787K

    Lesson: Some classes do well on burst fights. Yep, we got it.
    (00:37) Kiernun the Lyrical: 2904297774 Vladini-Temporal Mimicry-1,497,311,199
    Inuf | 403785K
    Cloud | 352095K
    Hike | 338662K
    Firam | 231196K
    Ratit | 216963K
    Skitt | 207134K
    Lesson: See above.
    (00:20) Cronnin the Axe: 5920891874 Hike-Fatal Followup-1,675,997,063
    Hike | 921045K
    Inuf | 897520K
    Ratit | 801872K
    Cloud | 714333K
    Firam | 441402K
    Suade | 411072K
    Skitt | 391277K
    Mellz | 306831K
    Lesson: Script mechanics and guild execution can favor certain classes.
    (02:47) Ynonngozzz'Koolbh: 2914509195 Ratitzx-Searing Passion-2,126,946,344
    Ratit | 440855K
    Inuf | 367356K
    Firam | 350333K
    Devor | 287837K
    Hike | 264798K
    Cloud | 262148K
    Skitt | 103332K

    Lesson: More script sadness.
    (00:25) Karith'Ta: 4077188224 Hike-Fatal Followup-3,484,772,025
    Hike | 793163K
    Inuf | 671387K
    Ratit | 426930K
    Cloud | 404809K
    Suade | 300172K
    Devor | 284969K
    Firam | 264882K
    Anglo | 177329K
    Lesson: "Everyone knows that Beastlords are always 30% ahead of equal geared and skilled players." o_O
    (04:41) Tollen'Eod: 5341370435 Firamas-Claw of Khati Sha-4,375,705,041
    Inuf | 908264K
    Firam | 898776K
    Ratit | 804777K
    Cloud | 402471K
    Devor | 397835K
    Hike | 379247K
    Suade | 295556K
    Lesson: "Raidleader told everyone to intentionally trash their DPS so we don't wipe. I didn't listen to him, because I don't have any DOTs and I'm not going to rtardedly dump DPS into a named and trigger fail condition while adds are up. Oh look, I crushed the parse because I didn't listen. Hay gais did u heer Beastlurds do triple everyone's DPS?!"
    (07:19) Durtung the Arm of War: 1083656339 Firamas-Claw of Khati Sha-2,219,673,401
    Firam | 311570K
    Ratit | 110698K
    Cloud | 109898K
    Inuf | 105044K
    Suade | 88999K
    Hike | 77957K
    Devor | 44265K


    Alright, part two. Let's rewind in time a few months and explore the following situation: "I recently main-switched to a beastlord and all I have to my name is this shiny Ire-dread and a bunch of other slightly-infused mid level raid gear. Need more ethereals and infusing pls!" To save space, I'll post zonewide parses; I don't slack on trash. Also note that Ratitz wasn't playing a conjuror with us for the first part of it. Inuf and Hike were both similarly geared to today though - at least in hammer/ethereal rune/etc ownership. These will be in forward chronological order, during which you can see my improving performance as I get gear (including eth runes), infuse the gear, and also refine my understanding of the class.

    (14:52) All: 2029189512 Hike-Fatal Followup-2,950,192,546
    Inuf | 396542K
    Theun | 298923K
    Cloud | 200291K
    Hike | 179847K
    Firam | 177021K

    (29:29) All: 1796877697 Hike-Fatal Followup-4,269,938,769
    Inuf | 313415K
    Firam | 241089K
    Hike | 235972K
    Theun | 227710K
    Yuhox | 127205K

    (21:07) All: 1616234278 Cloudiest-Temporal Mimicry-2,323,892,173
    Inuf | 280271K
    Theun | 198931K
    Hike | 180214K
    Firam | 168015K
    Stimp | 164383K
    Cloud | 100781K

    (23:41) All: 1934736851 Cloudiest-Temporal Mimicry-2,686,614,832
    Inuf | 309664K
    Firam | 275996K
    Ratit | 270500K <--- oh hey, welcome Ratitz, glad you could join us on a conj!
    Hike | 219782K
    Cloud | 151125K

    (34:30) All: 1974398369 Firamas-Draconic Breath-3,079,426,563
    Ratit | 307845K
    Inuf | 290635K
    Firam | 290153K
    Hike | 222752K
    Cloud | 148420K

    (01:09:30) All: 1782715286 Hike-Fatal Followup-2,675,962,307
    Inuf | 309143K
    Ratit | 279633K
    Firam | 245555K
    Hike | 215556K
    Cloud | 170452K

    (01:12:05) All: 1899921859 Hike-Fatal Followup-3,289,136,047
    Inuf | 374302K
    Ratit | 280790K
    Firam | 269132K
    Hike | 243852K
    Cloud | 174790K

    So hey, there's another perspective on this grand story. There are still plenty of chapters missing, and lots of nuance behind the million variables affecting each of those parses that I don't have the time to explain (or can't remember), but it's something you can chew on if you'd like.
    Ratitz likes this.