Tying the EQ Universe Lore Together

Discussion in 'History and Lore 2' started by Mikegonz, Nov 17, 2013.

  1. Mikegonz New Member

    Just a suggestion, but it would be cool if the devs could post some of this ongoing cross-over lore in some readable form like eBooks for lore buffs, like what they're doing with EQN. It would help tie the EQ Universe(s), and maybe even help get people interested in the games who haven't given them a try. I feel like I'm missing out on so many vital or interesting things by not playing both games, but I hardly have the time to keep up with one by itself.

    I know there's got to be more ties with EQ1 that hopefully can get answered soon, and I really don't want to miss out on the story part of things. In our current expansion, we went into the Nexus core, saw Tears of Veeshan powering it, the last boss called the Guardian of Light and Dark. What's interesting is the lore about Luclin being the mesh of Light and Dark merging into shadow (in EQ1). Luclin herself has some ties to the Nexus according to previous lore. But if this is the case, why are Veeshan's Tears found powering the Nexus Core, which are supposedly the point where all threads connect? Does this tie in with Luclin? Are those Tears even Veeshan's tears?

    Luclin seems like an Avatar of Balance in a sense for EQ1, similar to Roehn Theer, but in an entirely different way. Speaking of Roehn Theer, if he's someone so close to the Nameless, why has he been thrown to the wayside, and why such a draconic appearance?

    I seriously hope that these tidbits are tied in some way, and each universe's lore is not just a "nope they are entirely separate universes so don't try to mesh them" type of thing. They have the same past, so there should be some connections filled in, and it could be cool to keep people more engaged in each universe they choose to play in, while keeping tabs on crossovers to other universes.
  2. Mixxit Active Member

  3. Meirril Well-Known Member

    Technically speaking Luclin is the same goddess in EQ2 as she was in EQ1...during the PoP expansion. Back then she was the Mistress of Shadow and the Lady of Secrets. The whole "balance of light and darkness" thing is a lot more recent in the EQ1 lore (like within the last 3 years. Definitely nothing that sounded like that when the first Luclin expansion came out. ) If/When Luclin makes an appearance in EQ2 I'd expect her to conform to the current Luclin in EQ1 because the dev teams communicate and a lot of the shifts in EQ1 make it into EQ2 when things do cross over.

    Though there has been a rather pleasant example of this not happening. Araken (sp?) the half-dragon men from EQ1 have shown up in EQ2's Ethernere...and none of our dragons know what the heck they are. Apparently the Araken are from a different thread (probably EQ1) and are on the side of the Awakened.

    Also the Nameless created Rohen Theer, just like he did with the elemental dieties. Then he stepped away from Norrath and let things take their course. In our thread he got trapped in the Void. The Nameless watches his creation, he doesn't choose sides or favorites apparently.
  4. Innania Member

    The half-dragon men in EQ1 were the Drakkin, and they didn't have wings. That being said, Dyn'leth was the bred son of a dark dragon (Lethar) and a high elf. He had wings, and was very close in appearance to the Araken.
  5. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    the problem with trying to 'merge' the lore of the worlds into a singular place is that things that happen in EQ2, don't effect Eq1, and vice versa, after PoP except when the devs specifically say so. like in Eq1, there is no Anashti Sul, Aket Aken, or Rohen Theer. Luclin is still whole, ect.

    just like in Eq2, we never went to Kuua or fought Discord, Taelosia is still unknown/might not exist, the Drakklin were never as far as we know created nor has there been a 'breeding grounds' for dragons on Antonica in the dragonspine mountains.

    though I haven't gotten to far into the Sig questing yet, I didn't think the Nexus Core was the 'point where all threads converge' I beleive that was Ethernere, which is why the death of Cazic Thule in EQ1 was felt there, and from what we know of the latest EQ1 expansion, Lendaria got thrown through ethernere and into EQ1's thread...which has cause ethernere to 'bleed' into Eq1 norrath...thus potentially allowing us a way to find her.

    they are using the Thread idea to say that the 'tear int he scroll' from Druzzil Ro's actions (the created the Eq1/2 divergent timelines) didn't just effect PoP forward, but also events in the past ( Rhoen Theer, Anashti Sul, Aket Aken, ect.)
  6. Meirril Well-Known Member

    The Nexus Core in the Ethernere takes advantage of the linking of threads to allow it to connect to multiple threads. It takes advantage of the Tears of Veeshan to allow it to not only connect to locations in those threads, but also to reach through time.

    This brings up an interesting conversation about the Nexus Core(s) in general. This core was constructed by dragons, and is different than the Quellthulian Nexus but close enough that an expert on that Nexus understands everything about the Vespyr one. Does that imply that the Quellthulian Nexus and by proxy the Luclin Nexus are similar? And what are they powered by? More Veeshan's Tears or some other arcane or divine method?
  7. Mikegonz New Member

    I wasn't really saying we should merge all lore, but there's definitely some ongoing connections between what's happening among each timeline right now. I think the devs are using specific language to imply certain things in the more recent lore. Anything beyond PoP other than these implications definitely shouldn't be related.
  8. Rezikai Member

    Hmm interesting, we know El'Arad and the Awakened forces had some sort of alliance/agreement. Perhaps it was to keep the other dragons from interfering with the construction of the Farisan Nexus built in Quel'Ule. They often dismiss "lesser races" to a point where the Erudites trying to create one they may have overlooked where if the Awaken's forces were attempting to create one the dragons would take notice. This and the fact that the new signature quest also has a hint that the activation of the Farisan Nexus "helped along" the destruction of Luclin (see Zal'Urid's dialogue) kind of foreshadows thing's we could learn in future events.

    What gets me is this,.. if the Nexus Core(s) in Vesspyr and Quel'Ule are so similar, wouldn't that make them similar to the one that was "blocked off" in EQ1's Luclin tunnels, since the Farisan Nexus was supposed to do the same teleportation? On top of that if that is the case, were the dragons the creators of the original Luclin nexus and if so when/why were they using it then stopped?.... ugh questions... so many... so early... need coffee..
  9. Anaogi Well-Known Member

    Suspected for some time, at least since Sentinel's Fate. (And we never did find out what those noises were from inside the Farisian Nexus...)

    I'm starting to suspect the final revelation of what happened to Luclin may be a bit of a surprise. Or not, depending how you view what happens to anything adventurers get involved in.

    Luclin in '14. I shall conjecture no further. (My track record being, y'know, not exactly good.)
  10. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    I'm thinking more along the lines of the 'nexus' in Luclin was that oily black sphere, they just built around it, to facilitate things once we got to luclin. how they did that, was the blueprint that El'Arad used, and we know he was working with the Awakened legions in KoS. but it's also very likely that El'Arad himself got his information from Theer.

    or perhaps a dragon from Norrath's past that is dead from before Luclin when boom....Ragefire maybe? (his mortal guise was a human mage) might have studied such things and once he got to Etherenere...saw this as a means to be able to find a way out?
  11. Meirril Well-Known Member

    I don't think any conjecture we can come up with would explain the presence of 3 Tears of Veeshan in the Ethernere. They could be from our Norrath, or from other Norraths. We don't even know what the source of the Veeshan's Tear is. For all we know its just a relic discovered by dragons and named after Veeshan for no practical reason.

    It shows draconic work on it, but it could be the creation of dragons from another thread, or dragons we've never herd of and it was constructed before the age of Turmoil (EQ1). Or it could of been made by the Quellthulians according to Kerafyrm's blueprints (the archatects were sacrificed as part of the plan) and this was the 4th tear needed to complete the device. We honestly don't know.
    Innania likes this.
  12. Bludwyng New Member

    You CAN create a single lore but it splits in EQ1 at Time. You have to map them out as a multiverse since the timelines diverge from that point.

    On the other comment I see most in this thread, why ask the devs to make an eBook when we have two perfectly functional wikis available? I would suggest the lore-hounds start a project, at ZAM or EQ2i, to create a readable Norrathian Lore encyclopedia. Of course, as the ZAM wikibase admin, I certainly suggest doing it at ZAM and I would be happy to make any special templates the team decides it needs. Also linking to mobs, items, and quests would be easier on ZAM with the databases and mouseover tools., but not absolutely needed. I have worked on both sites and both wikis are fine, robust tools.
  13. Meirril Well-Known Member

    It splits in both directions at the end of the Planes of Power expansion. The further you get away from that specific moment in Norrath's history the more it diverges. This is especially true of Norraths past. In EQ1 they added a race of half-dragon half humanoids. I think these were created by dragons. Supposedly they were created tens of thousands of years before the launch of the expansion. Are they part of EQ2 since we diverged at a later date? The short answer is the EQ2 devs are under no obligation to add them. They were added to EQ1 after EQ2 launched, and the two are fully separated games. For something to happen in both games either its planned or the other dev team likes it and adds it to their game.

    A really big question would be if Anashti'Sul and Rohen Theer even exist in EQ1. The void event happened in both games and started at the same real world date. It was a live event. The event had the shadowman army invaiding at several locations. That seems to indicate the same source but... As far as I know that lore wasn't followed up on in EQ1. Or at least nobody has mentioned the outcome here. There aren't any signs of Anashti'Sul existing in EQ1 and its a HUGE event that mainly takes place in a well known section of Norrath (the Desert of Ro). She is the forgotten deity of EQ2 so her not being noticed in EQ1 does make some sense, but for Akhen Aten to be completely unknown while people are exploring Takish'hiz is almost as strange as there being no sign of Takish'hiz in EQ2 even if both cities are physically very close to each other.

    Both games are living things that have events added through their entire timeline. Trying to make a single timeline that holds all events only serves to muddle things. What kind of events to do you include? What kind of events do you exclude? The arguing over that alone would never end.
  14. Rotherian Well-Known Member

    The way I see it (and let me stress that it is just my interpretation) is that they (the different Norraths) are completely separate threads that, in some cases, have similar events (with an almost exact correlation during the time period covered between the launch of EverQuest and the last part of the PoP expansion). Despite the correlations that exist, to me they are totally different time threads. (That almost allows anomalous things, such as the discrepancy you mentioned, to exist without contradiction.)
  15. Innania Member

    Actually, the Drakkin were created shortly after the cursing of The Nest in the "Dragons of Norrath" expansion.

    The launch lore of "The Serpent's Spine" expansion:


    Note: Dyn'Leth looks similar to the Aerakyn invading Vesspyr Islands.
  16. Iskandar Member

    As far as the Aerakyn go, I also don't see any reason why Dyn'leth should be dismissed...

    In EQ1, Dyn'leth he was the son of a black dragon, the Scale Guardian Lethar the Black, and an Elddar elf, Vel'Dyn -- he was the first elf-dragon hybrid offspring, with the wings and reptilian characteristics of a dragon merged with the humanoid size and form of an elf. After he came of age, he controlled the Serpents Spine for centuries, using the power of the Scale of Veeshan from atop Spine Peak. He reigned supreme over his lands as the Elddar forests faded into the Deserts of Ro due to the rise of the Serpent's Spine mountains, until long past the time when Norrathians breached the elemental planes and, ultimately, the sacred Nest within the Broodlands. Obviously, he has some longevity hehe!

    When the Rending twisted the lands of Norrath, the regions known (in EQ1) as the Broodlands, the Nest, Crescent Reach, and Spine Peak would have all been affected just as much as the rest of Norrath -- twisted, separated, and laid to waste. Assuming Dyn'leth arose in EQ2 as well as EQ1, he would have controlled his lands (just as he did in EQ1) for centuries before this occurred. The Rending would have taken place before the Nest was discovered and breached (and cursed) and before the Circle of the Crystalwing was formed to create the Drakkin. As a result, with his lands not only shrouded by draconic magic but now physically severed from the rest of Norrath, Dyn'leth would have the perfect opportunity to do as he pleased without ANY interference from outsiders -- the Drakkin would never have been created here, and Norrathians would be too divided and caught up in cataclysm and war.

    It's entirely possible that Dyn'leth still exists, and was either approached by agents of the Awakened to work together, using the Scale of Veeshan to create a subservient Aerakyn army to destroy the dragons who opposed them (Dyn'leth had no love for dragons -- he despised them!), or was somehow defeated by the Awakened, who then worked with Vyemm to create the Aerakyn and used the Scale to control them (perhaps even using an imprisoned Dyn'leth as their template when creating the Aerakyn, which would certainly explain the physical similarities... Vyemm did have a rather mysterious research lab in Bonemire, after all ;)).

    I see the second option as the most plausible, as I just don't see Dyn'leth cooperating with dragons, drakes, wyrms, or droags.... and the dialogue of the Aerakyn implies that they are loyal to dragons, not opposed to them.

    Since only Dyn'leth could innately tap into the draconic control powers of the Scale, then perhaps the Quellithulians were involved as middlemen, or perhaps the relatively recent Shattering injured Dyn'leth or somehow reduced his power, leaving him vulnerable to attack. Perhaps Dyn'leth created the Aerakyn himself to better protect his lands in the centuries following the Rending... only to have control of them stolen by Vyemm at some later date (perhaps because Dyn'leth was killed or injured during the Shattering, giving Vyemm or some other Awakened follower an opportunity to seize control of the Scale, and with it, control of the Aerakyn as well). Perhaps he was simply separated from the Scale during the impacts, giving the Awakened an opening to seize it and take control of his followers/creations. Or perhaps the impacts destroyed everything he had built, leaving him no option but to work with the enemies of his enemies and start from scratch.

    No matter how you look at it or what you believe, there's a lot of missing data and unanswered questions... but either way, I don't see any lore reason why he couldn't be in EQ2 nor why he couldn't be involved, either directly or indirectly, with the creation or control of the Aerakyn. But we'll still have to wait and see where the lore leads next before we can say anything with any certainty :)
  17. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    the Aerakyn seem to be a specific soldier either created in the Temple itself, or they were moved to the Temple perhaps as more trustworthy/loyal/controlable servants.

    My bet is the Aerakyn is what happened to the eggs mentioned in the book talking about the fall of ToV to Kera and the destruction of the Western Wastes. an experiement to create of perhaps more 'powerful' version of droag. they have a more humanoid appearance, but they also seem more intelligent or powerful when it comes to spells and weapons.

    for all we know the original Aerakyn were a raiding party that were proving themselves by murdering Dozekar again..and were captured and mutated, converted into the Aerakyn by Kera's followers as super soldiers.
  18. Meirril Well-Known Member

    I'm actually betting that the Aerakyn are from a different thread and were brought to the Ethernere by Kerafyrm using the Tear of Veeshan. I'm thinking he isn't just playing with a single dimension here.
  19. Mary the Prophetess Active Member

    To get back to the request made by OP:

    At one time I was a huge lore buff, and very active on these forums. Not so much anymore.

    The longevity of all the different franchises, the number of expansions, and the number of developers who have been tasked to contribute to the lore, have created a Gordian Knot that I do not believe can be untangled any longer.

    The time split was a colossal mistake from my point of view, I understand the necessity of it from a designers point of view, but it muddied the waters to the point of absolute obscurity.

    However, even if it had never occurred, the number of expansions for two different games and the necessity to fit each into the lore of previous expansions, created contradictions and interpretations that have only confused the situation.

    There are those that welcome such uncertainty, justifying it as a mirror of the uncertainty that exists within the history of the real world. I am not one of them.

    A fantasy world, be it a book, a movie, or a roleplaying game, must operate under a set of rules. These allow the player to suspend disbelief, and immerse themselves in the game.

    In an MMORPG, accepted convention and lore play a very important, (perhaps a vital), role in this immersive aspect.

    Scholarly works on the study of the belief in myths and magic, have tried to quantify these beliefs into a basic list of 'laws'

    Frazer's nineteenth century work, The Golden Bough, and the writings from the turn of the century occult society of the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, are two of the most widely read.

    There are several dozen so-called, 'laws of magic'; but for our purpose we need only consider the following four:

    The Law of Infinite Universes.

    The Law of Personal Universes.

    The Law of True Lies

    The Law of Pragmatism.

    Fantasy worlds only 'work' because of these laws.

    An individual can, and does, create within their imagination, a 'personal universe', which is one of the 'infinite universes which may exist.

    In the case of MMORPGs, this personal universe is created by the designers of the game. This universe is subject to it's own laws, (True Lies), which, for the purposes of the game, are taken to be true (Pragmatism). It is the acceptance of these laws that allows us to suspend disbelief, and immerse ourselves into a fantasy world.

    We, as players, then create our own personal universes, (in the form of background for our characters, beliefs, associations, etc.), within the designer's universe, (Norrath).

    It is when the laws of True Lies and Pragmatism are unknown, discarded, or are not universally known and accepted, that the game loses the aspect of a fantasy world, (Personal Universe), and becomes nothing more than a video game.

    The whole time split debate has disrupted these laws in the sense that it has violated the Law of True Lies; giving the players TWO sets of equally valid, and often contradictory 'truths' with which to assimilate and deal with. It has stretched the suspension of disbelief; not to the breaking point, but to it's limit.

    The same may also be said of mixing different genres into an amalgam, (science fiction with fantasy, for instance).

    They put an unnecessary strain on the believability of the system.

    To introduce more uncertainty (chaos) into the system threatens to break it entirely as a believable, and knowable Personal Universe.

    Re-uniting the two spin-off Norraths might go far in rectifying some of these problems, but the reality is that it will never happen. Creating yet a third Norrath will only compound the problem. Unless EQ Next contains NO elements at all from EQ Live or EQ2, then it will only exacerbate the conflicts which already were caused by the first time split.

    Though perhaps not totally impossible to achieve, I think attempting to untangle the lore at this point would be a dangerous and difficult task to accomplish, and might cause as many problems as it solves.

    And this is the situation where I now find myself. EQ2 is no longer a world I visit. It is only a video game, and a social network. And that was a very sad and discouraging reality I arrived at about a year or so after Vhalen left.

    For those that continue to make the attempt, I salute you and I wish you well. Sadly, I think you are on a Quixotic quest.
    Malfaer and Rapha Nissi like this.
  20. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    Actually I think the DC animated movie, the Flash Paradox, solves all our Eq1 vs Eq2 lore problems. it is the sword to cut to gordion knot.

    there's is a scene were Flash and his 'evil counterpart' Zoom are having a fight/discussion and Zoom says the following. "When you break the sound barrier, it creates a sonic boom that ripples out form that point...you, Flash, broke the Time barrier. ripples went out, altering little things here and there, that brought us to this point.'

    I think that is what Druzzil Ro's 'tearing the fabric' did. she broke the Time barrier, and the point of impact may have been Zeb being freed by mortals, but the ripples reached out from there both forward AND backward. that's why we know about Aket Aken, and Anashti and Theer, and EQ1 doesn't. that's why in our norrath, Kera (probably) wasn't woken by a raid party, he was probably awoken by the Rending. and instead of killing Yelniak, only beat him within an inch of his life before the Crusaders showed up.

    Eq had the Drakkin, we have the Aerakyn/Droag.

    This also can help with that damned Ydal and Ewer business. in Eq1 Inny couldn't create initially. he learns how later (LoY expansion with the Luggalds) in Eq2, he could at first, and created the Ydal..which were a failure...then did the story we all know about taking the king/queen of the elves to make his own successful version.

    the story we see is only from a person looking forward, that the scroll had torn in two, one side rolling in on itself (eq1) and one going straight (eq2) it might be a logical reason that the entire scroll ripped or 'tore' in parts to create the alternate 'threads' of Eq1 and Eq2.

    if you take a peace of paper, and cut it in half up to 1/3..and then keep pulling those two peices further apart...it rips down the rest of the paper, until it's two separate pieces. thus the 'Time Barrier' break idea.