Two Handers or Dual Wield?

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-khurath, Sep 18, 2005.

  1. ARCHIVED-Stuntie Guest

    A lot of the Cobalt recipes are bugged at the moment, including the Executioners Axe I believe.
    Expect to see them when the fix arrives.
  2. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    I seen a Pristine Cobalt executioners axe tonight. Has a 62.7 dmg rating, stats arent much better then ebon, 62 hp and 64 power. 2.7 delay.
  3. ARCHIVED-Larsenex Guest

    This is my experience and I am a 39 Zerker on AB server.

    Sword N board (Pristine imbued Feysteel assault axe & Pristine imbued Oak tower shield)

    Two hander (Pristine Imbued Greatsword)

    DW (PGT and pristine imbued oak fighting baton)

    I have fought Orcs in Zek since 33, and Combat went into effect at 34. This is what I have found, I am just noticing things. I tried many combos of stances on/off. What I have found hands down (for me) is Greater Fury+Two hander is the BEST combo for me when soloing! In any other combo my health goes down MORE than if I use that combo. I get MANY procs with the Fury line with my sword and I rule over multi-encounter mobs such as bears and deer.

    I can even take green no arrow HEROICs with this combo!

    I own Gaurdians of EQUAL lvl with this combo! (my best friend is 39 guardian and it wasnt even close in dual).

    When I tank in group I always use defensive and sword n board but when I am back up tank or soloing I will go 'all the way' offensive and it really does work for me.

    Hope my input helps.

    PS I base my info on rate of mob killed vrs my hps at end of any given melee. I take on solo ^ white con orcs and Orange no arrow orcs and Two hander is the way for me..

    Thanks again.
  4. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    funny, I find with DW, I can solo tripleup blues on the last level before they go green, or, in Feerrott, at level 43 I was soloing heroic level 37 5 parties of lizardmen (no arrows) and level 38 four parties of heroic no arrow thule stars.

    My combo for this is greater rage, all three group buffs, recasting weapon shield as soon as it pops, imbued fulginate armor, and a pair of imbued fulginate spatha, along with a str imbued ring and a wis imbued ring.

    once in a while, if the mender and disciple in the lizardmen groups get their heals timed right, I'm close to dying when the last one falls, and I'm ALWAYS OOP and having to purely melee the underhand (one I leave for last, when doing lizardmen), from recasting my weapon shield, casting BA and WW as soon as possible, and proccing HOs every time they become available...but usually, I have at least 25% HP when I've finished a group of lizardmen, and 30-35% when I finish satars.


    So far, I can handle doubleups if they're two levels or more below me, as long as I cast the hell out of my CA's, and use the offending stance, as well, and single, no arrow heroics at my level, if they're melee, not caster, types.


    Right after LU13, when I was 35, I found these basic balances to be about the same in the fields outside RoV, and rooms inside, in regards to skellies and gobbies...melee solos, I could take doubleups two levels under me with DW, three levels under me with 2H, tripleups were 4 and 5 levels below me, respectively (last level "blue" to me, and first level "green" to me, at that point).

    But maybe our playstyles differ....I dunno.
  5. ARCHIVED-Sural_Argonus Guest

    I think it's a matter of preference and point of view (both pre '13 and Post '13).
    2h does a lot of damage in one hit, and has a long delay, and DW uses lighter weapons so they swing faster.
    I prefer the DW...only for the speed...My little dwarf uses axes or hammers. (just seems right that a dwarf zerker should use axes and hammers)
    However depending on situation...I do carry 3 sets of weapons. 1 set of DW axes for general use, a 2h battle axe, and a 1h axe and shield. Just really depends on what mood I am in. The next thing on my shopping list is throwing hammers. At least..I hope I can use throwing hammers. lol Haven't looked.
  6. ARCHIVED-Sabin the Great Guest

    This is a carry over from another thread, but end game, a big slow weapon is better far and away *except auto-attacking* (that's for you Gurg). While DW's hit faster, you'll recieve the same amount % of hits and misses amongst weapons of the same tier, and the same amount of average physical non-proc'ing damage. Where 2-hand really shines is the more CA's you use. Generally speaking while solo'ing, raiding and grouping, as your level increases so will the # of CAs that you use. This is especially true at level 50 when you get your offensive stance and rampage. Although a 2Hand becomes better in your early 40s at 50 is when you really can't afford to continue to use DWs.
  7. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    What he said.

    But learn to calculate your actual DPS, and to legitimately compare weapons before diciding on one, don't just grab the one that has the highest numbers, at the cost of a delay that turns your DPS into "swatting bears with a toilet paper roll", or lose out on a danned good mob-whacker because it's "too damned slow to be good DPS"

    And remember that CA's cast atthe same speed, and have the same "delay" between them whether you're holding a 15 second delay "mighty world tree of godly wrath" or "the ebuillient lady slipper greatsword" with a 2.0 delay rating....
  8. ARCHIVED-xandez Guest

    Yes, but if you have a 1.2s delay wep (and lets say youre even hasted a bit... down to 1.0s delay maybe)

    Using eg. 2s casting time skills makes you compeletly *lose* 2 hits... so... IF you're button mashing, the slower wep always is better that faster, but if youre
    not... it doesnt matter that much :smileyvery-happy:

    And this has been discussed so many times (or debated actually :p) already that im just gonna say...
    Choose whichever wep you like, no matter what it is or does it do MARGINALLY more or less dmg that the other wep.
    Pick the one YOU love...

    ++Xan
  9. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    LOL xandex.

    In the "half the man" thread, someone worked out that the difference between a 3.8 second 2H and a pair of 1.2 second duals requires 23 weapon-using CAs per minute to "balance" the number of swings.
    But, basically, what we've worked out in that thread is that until about level 45-ish, when the RGF weapons become available, DW delivers a slightly higher DPS than the comperable 2H in the same time period, but the CA advantage tends to rectify this, and even push the advantage over to the 2H side of the scale, while GS imbueds push it back towards the DW side.

    However, the difference, OUTSIDE weapon-based procs, is so minute that it's really a matter of personal choice...a difference of 6 damage on average per hit on the part of the 2H is enough to "eat the DW proc-per-second advantage", and that much extra damage can be aquired just by using the weapon-based CAs a bit "enthusiastically".



    Also, remember that out of 6 CAs that involve a weapon swing that are available to a level 44, only 2 have a 2 second cast time (whirlwind and berserker assault), all the others have a half-second casting time, which works out as a "speed advantage" for BOTH types...just more of one for 2H users.


    In the end though, you, Sabin, and myself are saying the same thing..."until 45 or 50, do whatever feels best to you, the actual difference is so small, it won't really matter in the end...once you hit 45-50 and beyond, switch to 2H, and get hold of one of the "BAWs" (bad arsed weapons) at all costs."
    Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-28-2005 02:39 AM
  10. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    Not really. What YOU worked was that you were right and DW is better.

    The only time in which DW is be better is if all you did was stand there, without haste, and only with auto-attack and no other procs other than imbued Gleaming Strike procs.

    As soon as you add haste, any CAs or additional procs chances and 2H is substantially better.

    In other words, if you aren't a bot, 2H is likely to be better for you.
  11. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    Really, Solokov?

    Funny, mate, but when it's stated, by one of the 2H adherents that it takes 23 CAs in a minute (which can't be done until 50, if then) to equalize unhated time between 1.2 DW and 3.8 2H for "procs in X time off weapon imbuements" purposes, I take it as what it says "the DW weapon-based procs happen so much more often that this is what it takes to compensate".

    BTW...haste makes a bigger impact on 2H in terms of how much time it cuts off the swing...but not in how many more swings it enables in X period..

    13.8% increase in attack speed:

    This can be restated as "under this haste, your attack speed is 86.2% of what it was"

    1.2 * .862 = 1.0344
    2.5 * .862 = 2.155

    So now, under that 13.8% haste, yes the 2H gained .345 seconds per swing, while each DW only gained .166

    BUT

    Unhasted, the DW pair swing a total of 100 times per minute (50 each), the 2H only swings 24 times per minute, total
    Hated 13.8%, the DW pair swing a total of 116 times per minute, the 2H only swings 28 times (27.84)

    For a gain of 16 swings vs a gain of 4 swings, and a net DPS gain of effectively nothing in comparison (the melee damage is essentially equal over the same period of time with 2H or comperable DW...the ONLY advantage DW enjoys is when both are imbued, which doubles your chance of proccing the weapon imbuement in a given time, specifically because there are two "generators" of the proc present)

    Haste has no impact on CA speeds, and the comparitave ratios of swing speeds remain the same, so the overall "procs produced by the weapons in a given time" stay the same.

    So again, until you have a 2H that has enough superior melee damage to make up for that extra weapn-imbuement proc every minute, or enough CAs available to make use of the higher CA-spawned weapon imbuement proc, the advantage is in the hands of the imbued DW...but it's a SLIM advantage. And the point that the 2H weapons described become commonly available is when you start raiding, and the CA chains become available at 50, to the best estimation I can work out, supported by the figures of one of you 2H adherents.



    Stance-based aggressive procs, as I said in the other thread, happen at a MUCH greater rate for 2H and DW, on a "per hit" basis...but it works out to "once in the time period it takes the 2H to spawn it in AS combat" and "the 2H spawns it more often off CAs"...which gives the 2H the advantage there...but what level do those buff-based procs become available, and how many CAs does it take for the advantage this gives 2H to balance the weapon-imbued proc advantage in "per minute" terms enjoyed by DW?

    I dunno, for that last bit...haven't put myself to working it out yet. I suspect, as I said in the other thread, that the stance-based aggressive procs 2H advantage overtakes the DW weapon-based proc advantage in "procs per minute" around level 40, when I got the last signifigantly increased percentage of proc buff...if so, I'm a bit behind the curve, but I don't yet know if that's the case (and if I find out it is, I suspect there's gonna be alot of crowing as I admit it, in that other thread :) ).
  12. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    Update...at 44, I discovered that spamming the CAs makes such a signifgant damage difference between 2H and DW that the procs are basically a non-issue...the best 2H damage available on broker at tier 5 WITHOUT weapon-based imbueds outperforms the best imbued DW pair I've seen on the broker.


    So if you use CAs heavily, instead of spending most of your time on AS, and waiting for all your CAs to recycle so you could string them in a given order, then 2H is best DPS as low as 41 (the level the 2Hs that outperform inbued DW without being imbued themselves first become available, in this tier)...but you'll spend more time recharging power between fights...and for me, this is a big issue, because I HATE downtime when I want to be fighting, and all my "enhancements" went to per-tick regen of HP, not power.
  13. ARCHIVED-xandez Guest

    psst Gurg... /respec, *cough*

    haha :smileyvery-happy:

    Ok seriously...
    Have you ever noticed some changes in the skill dmg with different weapon types?
    I mean, is there any difference in CA dmg whether you use a 2h wep or 2x dw weps?

    In some skills woudnt make any sense (like teh kick line)
    But in some, it could... (bigger wep = more pummel powah! or sumthing :p)

    Someone once claimed that there WAS a difference, but i really havent noticed or actually, i havent tested it out... heh :smileyindifferent:

    ++Xan
  14. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    No difference at all. Its all to do with how much STR you have that determines your CA dmg output.
  15. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    I would argue that it is more efficient to end fights quicker rather than slowing. This is due to out of combat regen being significantly faster than in combat regen. Thus, an extra tick of combat costs you a lot more than power versus spending that tick out of combat. In theory, burning more power in combat will increase downtime between fights, but the extra damage should more than makeup for the extra downtime in terms of overall kills/xp over time. Personally, I just can't abide simply standing there when I still have some power and typically use at least 75% of my power every encounter. (Funny how different people think, I consider not using CAs not fighting while you consider "downtime" not fighting.)

    The other issue is adds, the longer you spend on a given encounter, the higher the chances of your getting a wandering or re-pop add or having SOMETHING bad happen.

    (Before the respec, after I got Anarchy, I could take a solo mob down significantly with two bow shots.

    I'd Anarchy, Bloodrage, and then pull, those two buffs, along with the other procs I have, often ended up proccing for total damage of around 600, with a bow shot regularly landing for 300-400, this meant that each shot has potential to hit 1k damage. This led me to favoring longer pulls where I have room to run backwards a bit and get a second bow shot off.

    This no longer works nearly as well, of course, but it was fun while it lasted.)
    Message Edited by Sokolov on 09-29-2005 07:44 AM
  16. ARCHIVED-Sabin the Great Guest

    This is a carry over from another post, but I think it shows the differences in dual wield vs two hand very well. So here it is:
    (I'm quoting myself btw :robottongue:)

    OK, lets do it like this. I'll set up the proc chance of a 1.2 dual wield and 3.8 2 hand on auto attack over a 60 second interval, which everyone should be able to agree upon. Then, I'll calculate a number of CA's that need to be used over a given period of time for a 2 hand to do more total (procs + auto-attack) damage than a dual wield. In order for me to do this I'm going to make the following assumptions.
    1. No attacks are missed or parried (this simply doesn't matter, as over an infinite attack interval both weapons and their procs will miss the exact same amount of times).
    2. When you use dual wield weapons they only give a single chance to proc when you use a CA. I.e. You can't cast 2x gleaming strike off 1x CA if you are dual wielding (you can however have an attack do 0 damage and still proc which could explain some instances of this happening. An example is in raiding when a mob is immune to crush but you can still proc screaming mace...moving on).
    3. We're only taking into consideration the proc damage of the weapon, not the effect that the speed of your weapon has on other procs such as your offensive stance, etc.

    We'll use a 60 second interval since a minute is a nice round time frame.

    Auto-Attack with 2 Hand:
    15.79 attacks
    Chance to proc = 15.20 (12% base and a 3.8 delay weapon)
    Expected # of Procs from auto-attack = 2.4

    Auto-Attack with 2x Dual Wield
    50 attacks *per weapon (100 attacks total)
    Chance to proc = 4.8 (12% base and a 1.2 delay weapon)
    Expected # of Procs from auto-attack = 2.4 per weapon. So 4.8 procs total.

    So from auto-attack only we see that the damage delt by 2x dual wield weapons is superior by about 2.4 procs over a 1 minute period.

    However, it has been my general experience that no player spends his or her time only auto-attacking. So at what point does a 2 hand weapon become better than a dual wield when using CA's. For that we can set up a simple 1 variable equation where x = the number of CA's used over a 1 minute interval.

    (15.79 + x) * 15.2% = (100 + x) * 4.8%

    So in english this equation represents the break even number of CA's (x) which you must use for the two weapon setups (3.8delay 2hand vs 2x 1.2delay Duals) to have equal effectiveness.

    When you solve for x (this is very easy so I didn't show it) you get x = 23.
    In otherwords, you have to use greater than 23 combat arts in a 1 minute time frame for the 3.8 delay 2 hand weapon to be better than the 1.2 delay duals.

    So, if you are someone who uses CA's at a decent rate a slow 2 hand will be better for you. If you rarely use CA's as Gurg does, the duals will be better for you.

    THIS IS ONLY FOR BASE WEAPON DAMAGE (i.e. THE DAMAGE THE WEAPON DOES + PROC DAMAGE)

    What you find however when taking into consideration other procs such as the one found on Cryptic Metallic Curiass (CMC) or the one we gain from our offensive stance the number of CA's needed for a big slow 2 Hander to be better than Dual Wields becomes drastically smaller, because now the actual percent your CMC procs or your offensive stance fires is determined by the speed of your weapon and is thus much higher or lower than listed. Thus is the beauty of the slow delay weapons. They not only effect the amount the proc listed on the weapon fires, but the rate at which other "to hit" procs fire as well. So lets look at how this effects the situation we set up above. It was found that when using 23 combat arts in a 1 minute period, as well as counting auto attacks both the dual wields and the 3.8 were equal with respect to damage. So using those numbers lets add in an additional 10% chance to proc (as found on the CMC).
  17. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    Actually, Sabin, I've been schooling myself to use them more often, rather than sticking to my nice, comfortable "buff, pull, hit fighting chance, trigger three heaviest CA's, taunt to trigger HO, wait for slowest CA to recycle, and do again from Fighting Chance" pattern, as the DPS difference struck me as a real advantage (and has enabled me to competently take singleup heroics 2 levels above me in sinking sands, with the axe I chose to use for it, something I can't do with DW OR 2H imbueds available at my level)....you 2H adherents have won another convert...but I still don't like the "non-combat" time I spend regenning as a result.




    Solokov, for me, time not in a fight is "down time", where I'm paranoiaclly watching for aggro that might notice me before I'm ready (or worse, when I don't have enough power or HP to handle it, and have to run, willy-nilly, trying to lose aggro, and probably picking up half the zone in the process, and running 10 times as far as it took to lose the one I picked up originally)...it's boring, and slightly stressful...my DW pattern made it so I could handle adds, and, if I got too many consecutively, THEN had to find a safe place to rest and regen, but otherwise, I moved from one encounter to another with minimal time between, and had to sit and be a "paranoid", scanning around for aggro, as little time as possible...for me, gaming is about being in an encounter...which is why I'm usually more of an FPS buff than an MMO buff...I like action, not waiting for the next bit of action. But I understand your points, too.


    Basically, I'm a natural born grinder...I can be entertained for hours on end by being involved in non-stop combat against the same blasted mobs in the same scenery all day, every day, until they stop accomplishing ANYTHING for me, and my only drive to accomplish anything is to get to the next level so I can use the next bigger weapon, or the next nasty skill, not because I want the reward from this quest or that quest, but because I see progressing to that point so I can spend my time repetatively matching myself against the next toughest mob for the fun of "duking it out" with him...my only interest in raiding is so I can pit myself against the biggest, nastiest opponents I can, and see if I can live through it, and keep doing it until I CAN do so, easily...that's also why I love PvP, when it's in circumstances where there's some question as to who will win...I rarely duel anyone who will "surely" kill me, or who I have pretty much a 100% chance of killing, and I'm not embarrassed to tell a level 50+ (as I did today) "What's the point? You know it won't even be close.". Maybe that's the difference. I dunno.


    At any rate, "who can kill the most mobs in the least time?" is not a question that woudl occur to me unless someone put a challenge in front of me where that was the basis of the contest. "Who spends the most time sitting on their [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] doing nothing" is, because idleness drives me NUTS.
    Message Edited by GurgTheBashur on 09-30-2005 02:41 AM
  18. ARCHIVED-Buggrit Guest

    why not use both? im very close to 32 when i do ding 32 i probally will use pgt+ feysteel for a while because i think the dmg absorb proc will help with tanking i'll probally switch between the 2 for DPS
  19. ARCHIVED-GurgTheBashur Guest

    No reason at all not to use both, and the pgt proc DID work quite well for me for a long while.

    But you have to change playstyles in each situation, to get the "most" out of it, and most people are creatures of habit....in my case, I'm deliberately changing a few habits in order to change which outcome I get, because I feel the overall outcome from doing so is in my favor. Not really any different than some situations in RL....

    Say, for instance, you've always been one who paid attantion to gas mileage, and therefore drove the most efficient route to work at a moderately fuel efficient speed, but you discovered that, by driving a different route, at the same speed, you could get there sooner, at a cost of a bit more gas, but would earn a bit more money by being at work longer, due to the time saved (arrive sooner, leave later, leave home at the same time, get home at the same time), and the money more than paid for the extra gas....it's STILL "better" than being one of the guys who drives the least efficient route at the highest speed they can, so they can sleep in later, and who still leaves right when their schedueld shift is up, who spends half his "check" on gas, and has less to spend on the stuff you think is important, but it's ALSO better off, overall, than you were, to begin with, because you end up with a *bit* more money in your pocket.
  20. ARCHIVED-Buggrit Guest

    can we just drop it and leave it at

    use whatever you feel is best and are most comfortable with :smileyhappy: