The defensive achievements are the problem. It really doesnt matter if you take the miti, parry or defense upgrades, so everyone picks up the achievement with the most dps (and thats the sta line). And you can always switch from buckler to tower shield if it gets tough.
Skel@Butcherblock wrote: [p]The AA's concentrate on item type, not wield type. The STA line is for bucklers, not specifically 1H weapons (you can use a DW with a buckler if you want).[/p][p]In the monk forums there was a lot of discussion regarding the use of DW and 2H weapons, we came to the conclusion that 2 60DR DW were equivelant to 100 2H. A 2H weapon with a DR of 120-125 would basically be the best melee weapon in the game bar none.[/p]
2 handers SHOULD be, you are sacraficing all of your defense to gain offensive. When you do this you would expect a good DPS return, which is not happening right now. Personally i saw if a line can focus on a shield then a different line should/could focus on no shield IE 2 hander.
Please don't think that I'm saying your viewpoint doesn't have any merit. It does. I'm just more in the mindset that STA is so good because of the lackluster availability of other options and items. Many rogues are also using a 1H vs DW as well due to their AA choices. We're not the only class seeing this. I personally find the most attractive AA choices to be the abilities other classes aren't already buffing. Between items that add haste, dps, and group buffs, I'm usually capped on one or the other, and in a raid, most likely both. Even if I use a 2H. There are only 4 lines viable for 2H dps, STR, AGI, WIS, and INT. If I can cap on haste and dps, WIS and INT aren't very good choices. That only leaves 2, STR and AGI. AGI won't increase single target DPS at all. I'm not worried about AE damage, though it is fun. Now I'm down to 1 choice, STR. My only other way to increase damage is more damage proc'ing items/buffs, or pick the only other AA line no one else is buffing to cap, and that is STA. I have increased survivability vs a 2H as well, so it's a win/win choice. It's pretty easy to see why it's becoming a cookie cutter AA build. It's not really because it's overpowered. Overpowered would be putting us in line with top tier dps, or adding equal survivability to someone using a kite/tower. I can tell you from that last labs run where I tanked that I took quite a bit more damage than our defensively spec'd guardian did on previous runs. I survived, but overall survivability is lower.
[p]I accept what you're saying Uux, but it can only be one of 2 ways:[/p][p]Either[/p][p]The STA line stands out solely due to the other AA choices being inferior.[/p][p]OR[/p][p]The STA line stands out because it's a VERY good line. (even if other lines are below par)[/p][p]I have my line of thinking because I'm making comparisons with other subclass lines available. In my opinion, STA is an absolutely fabulous line. It's better than any brawler line by far (brawlers have 2 lines that are worth no points whatsoever). Warriors have it good atm, really good. If the WIS AA line was made better (to accomodate better 2H DPS) this would make it so you have 5 lines that are of potential use - this is certainly better than the 3 mediocre and 2 rubbish brawler lines. It's all about balance.[/p]
SoE does not care about balance, look at the EoF class set bonuses/focus.. some sets are total junk and some are godly.
Skel@Butcherblock wrote: [p] But the current STA build offers good DPS (better than DPS brawlers and SK's unless they're a DPS build). Should 2H DPS be higher? Should it be 2k+? Now we're turning a berserker into a potential T2 DPS class.[/p][p]The big question is, to make 2H DPS the top build for DPS with berserkers, do we raise 2H DPS or lower 1H/STA DPS. Another thing to bear in mind is that this doesn't alter the fact that the tower/kite shield is still not a realistic option for tanking berserkers.[/p]
Skel@Butcherblock wrote: Agreed, but you're in the fortunate position where you don't have to care about the class sets. You'll be getting the far better EoF contested loot. The class sets (even if you have a full set) are even worse (for certain classes anyway) in comparison to certain EoF instance (non set) and KoS contested loot.
[p] .. i use a tower and 1 hander all the time and i tank very well thanks 8). AP Agil/Int full lines here. i choose pure tankage over other aspects of the AP trees.[/p][p]See this is the problem, Every1 THINKS they speak for other players. See i enjoy they Tower and Sword but i will never argue over why others should choose that set up. That is my Chioce and u yours. [/p]
[p]It's called opinion, Ahdam. You've chosen to go down that route, so good for you! I personally (through having the exact same spec as you in fact) found my currently spec to be better.[/p][p]EDIT - Below is a list of all the berserkers in the top 100 health leaderboard (in order)[/p][p]Skel - STA line ** Grats Skel lol*** Exco - STA line Mateo - STA line Verenah - Not STA line Fayaden - STA line Morticus - STA line Estima - STA line Urrznargh - STA line Ajam - STA line Lindaor - STA line Junato - STA line Ariess - STA line Aralas - STA line Orson - STA line Ragefiend - STA line Yepe - Not STA line Gorilla - Not STA line Kobal - STA line Daugon - STA line Densha - STA line Klug - STA line[/p][p]Of 21 bersekers, 18 use the STA/Buckler line, 3 don't = 85.7% of them the STA line. I would imagine that the health leaderboard is a pretty good indication of tanks, so I leave it for you to judge.[/p]
Don't break something to try to fix something else (sta vs wis lines). Fix what's "broken" instead (the wis line). There really is no need to have animosity within the class.
I've never complained about the the warrior or berserker AA lines, even if I find some underwhelming and nothing to get excited about. I know there are some really good choices available and they allow quite a bit of variety. The main issue here is where anyone views the balance point. Are brawlers the epitimy of balance and then zerkers overpowered? Or are zerkers balanced and brawlers lacking? I think it's the latter. Brawlers have 360 avoidance, but the worst AE aggro. Avoidance tanking is no where on par with the plate tanks. Etc, etc. I'm sure you're more familiar with the issues than I am. However, bringing the zerkers abilities and choices down a few notches isn't going to fix any of them. Both classes would just have issues then. I'd rather issues get fixed than making it so every class shares the same problems.
This also includes zerkers from the top 8 or so raiding guilds WW. All of us use STA line, but i wouldnt frown on someone who chose not to go this route if they wanted MAX avoidance. The buckler line is truly a tradeoff of block for DPS/agro. I have always stood by the fact that we have 4 viable AA lines and they will all work in conjunction with eachother. It just depends on what you want to do. I would like to think i have a decent persuasion on this board but i dont really feel that i speak for zerkers as a whole, and i dont think anyone else feels that they know whats best for ALL zerkers. Everyone has thier views and its good that we have an active community to debate them and maybe open eachothers eyes on different point of views. Anjin AND Yummi both have valid points, and i happen to agree with both of them. At this point it would take some superuberomg tower shield to get me to switch from my sta line so i personaly dont see tower viable for me. But if i wanted the best avoidance i could get then it is w/o a question, tower shield.
[p]I guess a major factor is if a tank can get 60% in mitigation & avoidance (or a little over) while using a buckler, it doesn't make a lot of sense changing due to diminishing returns. With survivability & aggro being the 2 key factors in tanking, reaching the 60% mark leaves aggro being the one to go for. Pulling with a tower shield to survive the initial dmg spike, spamming taunts and our debuffs, getting the raid to debuff then swapping to buckler and then letting the raid do dps seems to me to get the best of both worlds.[/p][p]I imagine all STA specced guardians swap their shields after using Tower of Stone, so there's not reason why a zerker can't do it to increase survivability on pull.[/p]
tell me why it would be stupid NOT to use the buckler. right now i don't, and i do very well on raids when im in the right group. I've led the parse a few times, and im almost aways in the top 10 (again when I'm in the right group). its been proven that a good player with the right AA's can be a dps machine. someone said earlier that it was proved that the buckler out dps's the two handed, that unless there was another thread i missed, that guy is wrong. when enrage went out to do some dps tests, he he out dps's the other guy. i just don't get why so many people feel you cant be a good zerker without the buckler. I've used the buckler, and I've used 2 handers. i actually do better dps with the 2 hander. I'm thinking about switching back to buckler just to see how it is from a pvp stand point, but at the same time I don't want to loose my dps on raids. and to be honest all this elitist talk about "it would be stupid not to use a buckler" makes me want to keep my 2 hander just to prove that guy wrong.
To solidify even more that 1 hander/sta spec does more dps, you have to understand top tier weapon scaling. The weapon that enrage used on those fights is about 5 damage ratting lower then what drops off avatars, not too much more dps you can pull from a 2 hander. But the weapon kemt is using is about 20 damage rating from a top tier 1 hander, so kemt's DPS still has alot of room to be increased. If someone feels that, kemt/enrages parse doesnt reflect what they can do with a 2 hander, just make a controlled parse the same way they did and i will mirror what you do with my 1 hander. I can tell you in advance i have already done my own parses with 2 top tier weapons and the results were similar.
To be fair, the 2H Axe that drops from the Avatars (can't remember its name) is 5 DR better, but it can probably Crit for 7k DMG and has some decent procs on it - it's an UBER 2H weapon. Unfortunately it's only going to be available to very few zerkers.
