Tunare Is Dead

Discussion in 'History and Lore 2' started by Glinda, Sep 19, 2014.

  1. Kurei Hitaka Well-Known Member

    Hm, I guess I'm not as smart as I thought lol, misunderstood what he meant by Sacrosanct :p

    That said, yeah, it is weird to keep FV and Lanys around with no sign of Inny and a dead Tunare. Those two have no real purpose without their patron-y gods. Its like Hercules or Achilles without Zeus or Posideon.
    Mary the Prophetess likes this.
  2. Talitha New Member

    Agreed. It totally makes no sense.
    Mary the Prophetess likes this.
  3. Rotherian Well-Known Member

    Sacrosanct means that something is sacred or regarded as too valuable or important to be interfered with.

    If one entity is sacrosanct, and others are not, then that suggests an objective intrinsic superiority of one entity over the others in its category. This is not the case in the varying worlds of Norrath.

    All of the gods of influence have the same objective value. The preference of one god of influence over another god of influence is a subjective assessment - in other words, it changes with differing circumstances and perspectives. Objectively, however, each god of influence has the same value as the other gods of influence. Likewise, each elemental deity (even those that are formed as a collective) has the same objective value of its counterparts. Each demigod has the same objective value as the other demigods. Each sub-deity has the same objective value as the other sub-deities.

    Objectively, each member of a given category of entity has the same intrinsic value as others in that category - otherwise they wouldn't be in the same category. So The Nameless, in EQ's and EQ2's pantheons, has a greater intrinsic value than the elemental gods, which were created by The Nameless. The gods of influence, having been created by elemental gods, have less intrinsic value than the elemental gods. This pattern continues down to the mortal realm.

    I can't think of a single example where a member of a given category of entity gained objective intrinsic value and didn't ascend to the next category. Mortals that proved to have greater intrinsic value than other mortals (to the point where they became the epitome of a given concept) ascended. Unless I am misremembering, there have also been cases where a lesser member of the pantheon (such as a demigod or a sub-deity) ascended to a higher category (although this may merely be due to player error on the part of those entering information at the respective games' informational sites - such as the EQ and EQ2 wikia pages or the EQ and EQ2 Zam sites).

    Essentially, if Tunare had a higher intrinsic value than the rest of the gods of influence, she would have ascended. Since she didn't, that suggests that she has the same intrinsic value as the other gods of influence, and as such, should not be considered sacrosanct.

    We can debate subjective value all day, but subjectivity is not a rational basis for determining whether something should be considered too important or too valuable to be interfered with, and it won't move this conversation forward. However, if anyone can prove that Tunare has both a higher objective value than the other gods of influence and a plausible reason for not ascending to a higher category, I invite you to submit your evidence (although I don't believe that such evidence exists).

  4. Mary the Prophetess Active Member

    My biggest objection to EQ Next is that I feel like I am being scammed. It's the old bait and switch. They are trying to make me believe that this is a new chapter in a continuing story by advertising it as EQ when in fact it is nothing even *remotely* resembling EQ live or EQ2

    I have been a loyal follower of EverQuest for 15 years now. I never expected they would abandon their fan base. The whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    Ogres in space, PUH-LEASE!
  5. Rezikai Member

    I'd like to agree w/you Roth but the fact is stuff is. Hence the reason why this thread even exists instead of the nerd-rage filled rants about Tholuxe Paells not being in EQN. Don't get me wrong I don't care that she's dead... I never really cared for Tunare (just her elven races history) but when certain beings/characters are killed it means a hit in dollar$.

    Smed even said as much himself in the old interview prior to EQ2's release about the gods in EQ1 being killed. He said he realized that it was a mistake to allow something like that to happen.. and while the executioner for those deaths were players killing gods avatars and not random_horde4 script you can see where that... unobtainable level of indifference was lost and even for the first couple 2 years of EQ2 they kept them away. The mystery and mythical aura around characters are brought down and while it's fun to mess with may hurt the image in the long run.

    It's like the lost cities of El dorado... or the fictional Shangri la (though a real myth exists to help create it), they shouldn't be put on a pedastal above the rest but they are... hence they generate more dollars ala the fans of Inny and dark elves who love them for whatever reason... the ascension is based on opinion and taste but we can't neglect the fact it's there.

    Oh and microphones are expensive! That dude isn't balling like Dre he needs to pick that **** up!
  6. Meirril Well-Known Member

    One thing to say: If that Hord had permanently injured Tunare to the point she wasn't able to control her portfolio it would of been a more powerful statement on what kind of danger the Chaos beasts are. Also being able to interact with a unpowered Tunare like we interact with Zeb could of been a major motivating factor for EQN.

    Tunare could of started like a broken doll, trying to repair the damage to Kithcor and her giving a series of quests to help her along. A few expansions later the Chaos threat starts to emerge and a slightly recovered Tunare leads us to stopping the threat before it gains a strong foothold on Norrath. Eventually Tunare becomes an almost god of adventurers as she replaces her lost powers with what adventurers can accomplish. Mortal Tunare replaces Firona Vie as the poster child of EQN.
    Wanyen likes this.
  7. Rotherian Well-Known Member


    Either wait till it launches to make an informed decision after trying it, or decide not to try it on the basis of incomplete information. Your choice.

    But to say that they pulled a "bait-and-switch" and that you were "scammed" implies that you've literally paid actual money directly for a specific product and received a different product than you purchased*. Considering that EQN is not available for purchase yet, I fail to see how either a scam or a bait-and-switch has occurred. Further more, unless they discontinue EQ and EQ2, they haven't abandoned their fan base.

    If you think that this gives you a bad taste in your mouth, you really should give castor oil a try. That stuff is horrid. :eek: :D

    EQN isn't as much a new chapter in the same story as it is a different series set in a version of the same world. Kinda like Star Trek: The Next Generation and Star Trek: Deep Space Nine weren't chapters in the same story (although there were a few characters that appeared in both of them).

    * For example, if you ordered a hat and received a pair of shoes instead. The important parts are that you paid an amount of money greater than $0 for a specific product (that was available for purchase) and that the product that you received was not the product that you purchased**.
    ** And trying to say that supporting EQ and EQ2 means that you paid for EQN is a bit like saying that consistently buying two type of bed sheets means that you paid for a third type of bed sheet (that, btw, is not available for purchase yet) and can justifiably feel scammed if the thread count is different in that third type of bed sheet. o_O You can feel however you want, but that doesn't mean that the position that you are taking is a reasonable one.
  8. Meirril Well-Known Member

    I'm thinking this is closer to expecting the next Final Fantasy to be like the last one. ST:TNG and ST: DS9 were both set in the same universe, they had crossovers from one show to another. A few characters from Next Generation ended up on Deep Space 9.

    Every Final Fantasy has a Cid. Shiva has been at times a monster, a spell, a summoning and a god. Classes come and go between them. If you play a lot of them you think you know what to expect. And the developers go out of their way to prove you wrong in at least one aspect every time.

    Popular fiction wise EQ1 and 2 make up Disney, and EQN is going to be Once Upon a Time. Apparently. Hook is a good guy and Peter Pan is the major villain? Can Peter really pull off being THE villain? I'd really thinking small time hood at best.

    Maybe they could get George Cloony to play Peter. Wink wink, nod nod Mr. "I'll never grow up" himself. Or is it too late now? :D
    Lodrelhai likes this.
  9. Talitha New Member

    I think the killing of Tunare is absurd and an outrage.
    Mary the Prophetess likes this.
  10. Rotherian Well-Known Member

    And I think that the outrage over the killing of Tunare (in a game that isn't yet available for play, no less) is absurd. :rolleyes:

    I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on the matter. ;)
  11. Lodrelhai Well-Known Member

    I'm surprised this conversation is still happening on a completely unrelated forum.

    EQN was advertised as NOT part of the EQ/EQ2 continuity from the very first announcement. We were told we'd have some familiar names, but not to expect them to have the same roles or history. This was two years before they decided to start over from scratch on the game.

    Since we started getting lore, it's been very obvious how different that world is. Teir'dal started as a social caste of elves rather then a targeted warping. No Veeshan's Claws. The elves have been a conquering empire enslaving those it finds. Races coming from other worlds. Miragul was an elven emperor, for heaven's sake!

    But now they've revealed one of those changes that you don't like. You've a right not to like it. But what do you expect the players or developers over here in EQ2 to do about it? If you're trying to rally support for your viewpoint, I think the lines between who does and doesn't agree have been made pretty clear. If you want to push for change, that needs to be done where the devs for the game are most likely to see it - the EQN forums.

    And by all means, do keep pushing if you feel that strongly about it. I've been a persistent pain in the hindquarters when I want to see a change. Pre-launch lore is still flexible, can still be altered or dropped. But those efforts are best focused towards the people who have the power to see those changes made.
  12. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    We're also making hte arguements in the NExt Forums too. but I and soem other thoguth it'd be good for the EQ2 players that might be thinking of hopping over, that enjoy the lore...what changes are coming that seem a bit less 'reboot/reimagining' and more 'not norrath anymore but we're slapping the name on to boost sales'.
    Mary the Prophetess likes this.
  13. Talitha New Member

    I believe it is important to EQ1 & EQ2 that SOE understand we do not want future development to move away from the PC to the PS4 console. Only so much you can do as far as controller / interface on a PS4. A dumbed down MMO is really not in anyone's interest.

    For continuity reasons you also don't want to have a lore that is constantly in conflict with itself. It weakens your fanbase as people argue as to which lore should be considered as the official lore of Norrath.
    Mary the Prophetess likes this.
  14. Meirril Well-Known Member

    And for continuity reasons having the same lore running across 4 different games that are all in development and all have their own dev teams would be a logistical nightmare. Can you imagine if EQ:OA, EQ1, EQ2 and EQN were all in the same timeline?

    Everything done in EQ1 since 2004 would need to be accounted for in EQ2. That means the entire Cazic Thule story that happened in EQ1 couldn't happen because we have a Cazic Thule in EQ2. Well, actually it means they need to fix it with EQ2 before they can leave the story alone.

    It does mean that EQ1 has to stagnate to a certain degree because they can't introduce anything common that won't exist in EQ2. It means they can't get rid of Lucan D'Leer. All of a sudden he's wearing Lore-proof armor. (Actually in EQ1 Lore pre-PoP we kill Lucan twice for the Paladin Epic 1.0. Guess that didn't count?)

    EQ1 also can't introduce new races because they should exist in EQ2 somewhere. Worse, they can't introduce races we have in EQ2 to EQ1 because it would break lore for EQ2.

    It also means all those enemies that have been around for thousands of years that EQ1 keeps introducing with new expansions need to be accounted for in EQ2.

    Worse, any content patch for EQ:OA (people still play that? crazy!) should actually be reflected in the other 2 games.

    And then another game set....when? gets introduced and its the whole "everybody needs to get along" you can't rock the boat and stories need even more vetting before they can actually be approved and made. It really strangles creativity and (SoE would think more importantly) the budget for development.

    I'm all for Lore, but there is such a thing as a time and a place for it. As long as the EQ2 devs can keep their story straight and it makes sense internally (and by that I mean everything EQ1 pre-2004 and EQ2) where they go is ok. Oh, and they show a fundamental understanding of how the characters they created should act.
  15. Kosh New Member

  16. Lera Well-Known Member

    She's still alive and well in EQ2. No need to switch to EQNext if you don't like the lore.
  17. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    and while I agree to Meirril that the rebooting isn't bad, and having lore that in intergral to the game itself and doesn't need to confer with the other games to proceed, I also think that Norrath itself has some pillars, some aspects to it that make norrath, well, Norrath.

    One of those things in the pantheon of gods. and of those gods, the two biggest ones from a game play perspective are Inny and Tunare. No two deities have interacted with or influenced Norrath more then those two. the huge stories with Lanys and FV, Bloody Kithicor in eq1. we got the plot against E.Marr/Mithaniel in Eq2, and again FV's connection to Tunare via the lifeguide and she even come to the priests in a vision in the priest archtype quests. her influnce over Lesser Fay.

    to have Inny missing, and Tunare murdered is a cracking or shaking of one of the major pillars of Norrath. Inny should be there. and so should Tunare. change thier realms of influence, change thier genders, make them demi-gods rather then full fledged powers, fine. Make Tunare the God of the Ocean now that Prexus has taken over Water itself. Turn Inny into the Goddess of Discord, or Envy..fine...but they shoudl still be there in one form or another. not missing or dead for a 'lets make the Choas monsters seem more dangerous' spin.
    Mary the Prophetess likes this.
  18. Mary the Prophetess Active Member

    "I don't think we're in Norrath anymore Toto."
  19. Lodrelhai Well-Known Member

    And if they had given some demi-god of a lesser influnece the names of Innoruuk and Tunare, most of the same people would be highly upset that those changes were made, that they weren't really Tunare or Innoruuk because Tunare is GODDESS OF NATURE, and Innoruuk GOD OF HATE, not lesser being dependent on and answerable to some other god who should be answerable to them and who the EQN devs probably made up.

    That's happening right now, with the name of the game itself, and the number of people who have protested this isn't really Norrath and shouldn't be called EverQuest. The very essence of this whole argument is that the developers of the game have opted to change the familiar and people don't like those changes. We're free to like those changes or not, but the devs are free to listen or not. And they're free to call it EverQuest or not, because they are working for the creators of the original and the copyright holders of the IP.

    And none of it has anything to do with what's happening in EverQuest II.
    Rotherian likes this.
  20. Rezikai Member

    Sadly no EQ:OA was shut down and the servers closed in March 2012? Though hundred of hardcore fans gathered together on a forum board to see if they can creat an emu for it.... they havent had much success yet.


    I have to disagree w/ Talitha regarding "dumbing down" a game for a console. EQ:OA was by far a more combat centric game making players execute much faster which usually required quick thinking and execellent control skills.

    The best way I can explain EQoA's gameplay comparison to EQ2... is if you've played EQ2 for years and decide on a whim to go back and play EQ1 on one of EQ1's original UI's and control schemes. When you get loaded up and start trying to play you notice where EQ2's UI's work easier for you in comparison EQ1's comes off as clunky and slow. That's how it feels playing EQ2's UI and controls when I first started playing in comparison to EQoA's and for the most part still do. It's why I roll with at least 7-10 hotbars. I need to be moving/clicking/using/killing. Imagine EQ2 on speed where if a mob while your group is grinding lived for more then 3 seconds someone in the group died or went LD.

    EQOA did have limitations due to memory as the PS2 couldnt have all that extra space used for massive macros/emotes/use items and such but for what it had it's simple yet polished controls and gameplay more then made up for the extra bells and whistles.

    I for one would actually PLAY EQN if it was on a console.. though does it seem SoE isnt going to put it on one to anyone else? They have rang the bell for Landmark and EQN saying its absolutely coming out for PS4 but that was back in January but we haven't heard much of it since then... so who knows what's going on now.