TSO Instances: not casual?

Noaani wrote:

Yup, you dont understand. That much we can agree on

Yella wrote:

Help me out here then. Are you suggesting that NONE of the 20 instance zones can be run with anything other than an "organized full group" or a group of 6 players who play together on a regular basis? Because if that is what you are saying then I have to disagree with you as I have done several of the new TSO instances with a random group of people that none of us had played with before. All of them have played in groups before, but none of us had played with more than two of the other players before.
As I said before there are 20 different zones. Some are for "casual" players. However most of the new content is for the "experienced" player. This is an unusual expansion in that NONE of the content is for the brand new player, and very little of it is for the "casual" player. However I would submit to you that there already exists a TON of content for those two groups. TSO is for the "experienced" player, the type of player who has already experienced most of the content that EQ2 already had to offer and wanted more. It is not for the player who just started his first character last week, nor is it even for the one who has NOT already played through enough of the content to get to level 80/120 including most of RoK.

It really is the players. It has nothing to do with anything else. It's not their gear. It's not how many hours they play.
Every time I get in a pickup group, I "look" at the gear those around me have. I've seen groups that had me shaking my head at the gear go thru the zones fine. I've seen groups that should have breezed through fail, in even the simplest of instances.
This time, it really is about YOU. If you fail, it's not the game that has the problem.

Banditman wrote:

Too many people like to point the finger and blame SOE, or other player's, or the gear, yada yada yada...
I used to blame my golf clubs....
I used to blame my shotgun....
Nope, it was all me....take the tiime to learn a little bit more about your class, how to control your aggro, where to tank a mob, etc. before you blame the game.

Yella wrote:

Funny thing is, although you may not like the manner in which I am doing it, I am trying to help you here.
I could easily just not bother posting in this, or any other related thread, and let you people continue to think these instances are too hard. The fact that I know they are easier than you would like to believe is the only reason I continue to post on the subject.
So again, what is your defination of casual here? Are you talking about players with only treasured gear off the broker, because thats all they could afford? Are you talking about players that only have T2 and T2 RoK raid gear, because thats all their casual raid alliance can clear?
Both of these class as casual in their own way, and yet both will have obvious differences in what they are able to clear.
If your term for casual means someone that has yet do gear up from RoK solo quests and from RoK instances, then my answer to this inter thread is simply, no, you can't run instances like that. It is the equivlent of running VoES at level 70, as that is the amount of progression that is trying to be skipped.
If your term for casual means someone that is in RoK legendary, then my answer is yes, they should be able to run these instances. If I then find out that the RoK legendary these players are wearing is the full class sets, my answer as to why you are having trouble is because those players are unable to make informed gear decisions (in the time it takes to get a full set of RoK legendaru gear, you WILL have come across upgrades to at least 1 slot, but most likly to 4 - 5 slots).
If that same group is wearing RoK non set legendary, and they know their gear well enough to give a reason why they are wearing an individual piece over their set gear, then that group should be able to run the first 12 or so TSO instances, assuming remotly appropriate group setup (ie, you have a defensive healer that is appropriate for your tank, and you have at least 2 propper DPS classes or a groupwide DPS output of 8k+ [which is what I do in most groups myself, so it is not a hard thing to ask for]) then the only possible thing left is the fact that you are not yet aware of how to kill the mobs themselves.
As to not getting pickup groups... I join pickup groups all the time, on several different characters. If you happen to beon the same server as me, I may have even been in a pickup group with you, and you would never know it. I run more pickup groups than I do guild groups.

Yella wrote:

IOW, you can't be bothered to even TRY defining "hardcore" & "casual", as Noaani asked you to do.
I suspect it's because -- like George Orwell wrote about "democracy" -- you're afraid that if you actually define the terms, you'll discover that "casual" doesn't really apply to yourself at all, so you'd have to quit calling yourself "casual." I suspect that's true of a LOT of people, frankly; they toss around those words like they actually "mean something", when in fact they don't.

Yella wrote:

Most of my guildies are not on when I am, & even when they are, the chances of us putting together a full guild group are slim, because there are only 12-13 or so of us, total. So, when I am on, if I want to do TSO instances, I pretty much have to look for groups, deal with strangers, worry about people bailing, & all that other stuff.
Yet, I totally & completely disagree with your claims in this thread, & practically every other thread on this subject in which you've posted. Go figure, eh?
O, btw: the RED text indicates something that is almost wholly within the player's own control. Think about what that means, before you go implying further that SOE needs to do "something" about this "issue."

I think theres a lot of blanket statements here. Some of the zones can be duo'd with general ease, theres zones that can be duo'd, theres zones that take decent groups with competent players, and theres zones where you may want good group setups and better geared players. How does this progression confuse people?
Go back in time to EoF, would you take a fresh guild through Emerals Halls and complain about how its too hardcore? Or gear up on the easier raid zones then hit EH? Would you step into the hardest raid zone with poor group makeups? Sure you can do PR with almost any group setup, but does that mean you can do the other harder raid zones with any group setup (or why would you, to save everyone pain). It's the same here. I'm less strict on group make-up when going through Crypt of Agony opposed to going to Kor-Sha, for obvious reasons. Nobody said you need elite setups in everyzone but, some of the zones doesn't it just make obvious sense? To re-hash, same reason you wouldn't raid with a god-awful setup is the same reason lots of groups don't wanna roll with below par setups for higher difficulty heroic zones. It's a good thing, if you could just take any non-coherent group through all these zones, with classes whos buffs don't match up at all, and ease through them all, the difficulty would be pretty poor. It's so funny that theres all this fuss about group zones now. They add a bit of difficulty and people start to realize how many bad players login to Eq2. As for any game I've competed online in, the bad players unfortunatly outweight the good, and often the bad players don't even realize they're a bad player.
Grats to the groups with 2 healers who can't keep a plate tank up when my templar can duo easy --> moderate zones with my wizard - cause he can keep a cloth up better than serveral healers can keep plate up that I've encountered. Same grats goes out when you pickup a wizard who can't even do 1.5kdps. Try the Bolt of Ice button?

Yella wrote:

OOC.
QFE.
The above post explains it better than most others do. Some people will *never* understand that some other players are not interested in, do not want, will never ever EVER be in being in big guilds, into hardcore raiding, etc, and instead enjoy the informality of tiny guilds or even being unguilded, and grouping with pickup players, etc, and still love the MMORPG experience (even if for some casual players, they choose to HUNT solo).
Such casual-style players are not necessarily low-hours players (they may or may not be), not necessarily poorly geared with App1s (they may or may not be), and may indeed be clueless or experts at their classes, but what they have in common is simply the preference for the lack of formality and to hunt either solo and/or spend their time largely in duos and trios. Not all their time, but a significant part of it.
The typical raider/fullgrouper response on these forums, based on this and other threads over the years, seems to me to be "tough, (1) form groups/raids, join large guilds, make more friends, etc - ie change your playstyle ... or (2) just accept your lot without complaint ... or (3) leave".
My response to that has always been to players like that: "you do not set my options for me". Like other players on this thread, I will instead choose a fourth option - come to the forums and give my feedback, if necessary loudly and often, and ignore the usual minority trying to shout people giving feedback down, and keep repeating the feedback until the issue is addressed (or until SOE - not other players, SOE - definitively say that it will NEVER be addressed).
Feedback is, after all, what the forums are for. Whether players of other playstyles agree with the feedback has never been relevant, on this or any other topic.
I have to say, personally, I quite like TSO, and so have made little personal contribution to threads like this, especially since the instances can be mentored into. However, I preferred ROK, as there was more solo/small group content, and I look forward to there being more of the latter added into TSO soon.

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

The part no one has answered though.
Why should a player, any player, be given a short cut through progression?
If you are poorly geared by TSO standards, that fine, play in the zones that are desinged for characters with such gear. The rest of us did, and got better gear. What is it about such a player that makes them think they are so special that they should be able to skip that? Did they ask if they could skip all of T4 as well?
The easiest of TSO zones are able to be done by a group wearing RoK solo quested gear. The next batch of TSO zones are able to be done by a group wearing RoK instance legendary. The following batch of zones are able to be done by a group wearing low end RoK fabled, or the gear from the earlier TSO zones. The last of the TSO zones require either top end RoK raid loot, or top end TSO instance loot.
It is that simple, which is why I can't understand the issue, unless it is simply the fact that people suck (which includes people trying to do a zone with an abysmal group setup, people not communicating, and people not knowing the encounters).

Noaani wrote:

OOC.
They shouldn't. No-one is asking for that, if you actually read what they are saying. Ok, maybe one or two posters have some views in that direction, but not the bulk.
Progression is a "good thing", for all playstyles. Nothing should be "mine, now, I want I want" for any playstyle, I also agree. I am unsure why people who feel the scaling of difficulty is wrong are always summarized as "wanting no progression" by some raiders, it is by and large totally untrue.
In my opinion, it is just the scaling of difficulty that may be wrong. Heroic progression should be straightforward, across the board. I could use the word "EASY". That does not mean "for free" or "without any effort", but it may seem like that to those with hardcore raiding perspectives. Dirty word as that is to many raiders, that is the bottom line here - the whole scale FOR HEROIC CONTENT could be one notch down in my view.
In my view, heroic content should be aimed straight at heroic players, with typical levels of heroic player ability, gear and such directly in mind. It should not require the types of attitudes to gaming held by the typical raider, because frankly, many casual style heroic players are ... just not like that! (and do not enjoy it). I am quite atypical for a casual-style player, in that I min/max my characters, but most do not and never will, and if you tell them to, they just take no notice. Who is allowed to have fun in the expansion they paid for - in the content specifically designed for them (supposedly) - are they included? I believe they should be. This is the crux of this debate. Grouping progression is a wonderful thing, yes, but it should not require the same kind of attitude that the kind of players who raid have, because that is not actually representative of reality. At least not my reality.
That is my feedback, and that of many others. Obviously it is the very opposite of yours, but no-one says we have to agree.
That said, that was not the subject of my post at all, so I'm not sure why you quoted me specifically when you made that point. I was referring to the lack of content in TSO specifically aimed at SMALL GROUPS, and indicating that it was almost all aimed at FULL GROUPS. I did note that the reason there is less complaint about this than there could be, is due to the option being present for mentoring into TSO instances.

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

What content has any expansion had that was specifically aimed at small groups?
Some expansions have had content that was do-able by small groups, such as Nest of the Great Egg in KoS, but TSO gives you OoA and Scion, both of which are easier than Nest was at 70, and both of which can be/are being duo'd.
Edit: its easy to say there is no small group content if you havn't actually looked for any.

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

I agree that TSO really does not have much for "small groups"...although with proper gear/classes some of the instances can be 5-manned. I believe TSO does offer good progression and the instances are scaled properly. At the easy end you have Abbey,Scion and Forge that can be pugged with MC/RoK legendary....working your way up to the ones that really require raid gear.
TSO is pretty much a group centric expansion...but it offers something for all "levels" of group.
Pugs failing to complete the likes of Abbey and Scion have only the players themselves to blame.

Noaani wrote:

OOC.
I've no comment on OOA as I haven't tried it, but in my experience, Scion cannot be cleared in by an average duo at level 80 by typical heroic players. What raiders can do by having gear that trivializes the content is ENTIRELY and TOTALLY irrelevant to this thread.
Sorry, I'm not going to buy that. Heh, I can see now someone responding "well I have, with my swashbuckler and my mystic friend, wearing just crafted .. blah blah". Yes, we hear such "stories" all the time, but sorry, still not going to buy it, people talk rubbish and tell lies, and that comes under that category.
As for not looked, incorrect, I have. Indeed, I have actually duo'd part of Scion (and part of three or four of the other instances) as my standard templar/paladin duo, and with a monk/illusionist duo too, but only by mentoring down and then unmentoring, to make the content scale better to a duo. The fact that that works, for far reduced rewards (basically just the one shard) is the one fantastic saving grace for TSO for small group players. That said, some of those nameds still severely kick us over every single time, and we cannot beat them even mentored down, sometimes even to being GREY, but they are not designed for duos, so that isn't much of a surprise.
Forums are for feedback, and mine, like others, is I would like to see more content specifically designed for and targetted at small groups.

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Nest of the Great Egg was being duo'd by raiders months before non raiders were running it with less than 5 characters. This is all I have to say on this matter, figure the rest out for yourself.

There's nothing wrong with having at least 1 instance that can be solo/duo'd by raiders at the beginning of the expansion and by non-raiders by the middle-end of the expansion.
Also, the void zones will be receiving their own void shard quests in an upcoming game update so even small groups will be able to get some shards easily.

Felishanna@Antonia Bayle wrote:

Fel ... what you wrote in that paragraph describes ME. I'm not in a big guild & don't like being in them, I don't like raiding, I like grouping in PUGs, I even spend most of my time solo.
Yet, I fiercely disagree with Yella. I think Yella is completely wrong.
Go figure, eh?

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

None of the discriptions of a "casual player" I have seen on these forums (even with 3 threads about it) have provided me with any reason why a casual player can not clear TSO instances.

Noaani wrote:

Agreed.
However, I have learned that:
-having a single fabled item..even if its from a solo quest reward = hardcore
-not being able to duo the TSO instances means they are not casual friendly
-working as a team and communicating with your groupmates = hardcore
-having to learn the correct strat for the TSO instance encounters = hardcore
-learning to form good balanced groups = hardcore.
-it must of been a dream that I completed the likes of Abbey and Scion with anyting less that VP raid gear.
-that somehow needing a 2nd healer = group sucks.

Players have to learn to adapt. Either adapt your playstyle a bit to be able to do the content made available in each expansion or go somewhere else.
The amount of guilds out there with 7 people in them, 3 who actually log on that refuse to PUG and only play with underequipped roleplaying toons who refuse to group across lore racial boundaries are few and way far between.
To expect SOE to make content for that playstyle is silly. Its even worse because those super casual players are such a minority yet you always hear them referencing raiders as the anti-christ, even though there are more raiders than that subset of extremely casual anti-groupers.
I'm sorry that you feel the heroic label instantly means tank and spank with no thought or gear required, but the clamoring by all of these non-raiders for amazing gear from heroic instances means that heroic content is going to get harder to try to keep some risk vs reward factor in this game.
Don't expect to duo content that regularly drops raid quality fabled on an 18 hour lockout. Just another case of players getting what they asked for and then crying about it.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of these instances are ezmode and do not require raid gear or even very much thought. I'm sorry if you're failing them with your undergeared roleplaying trio. Thankfully your casual though and you get enjoyment out of the game in other ways, so your inability to clear content shouldn't even be a blip on your enjoyment radar.
Also: Anyone with multiple lvl 80 adventure classes and multiple lvl 80 tradeskillers is NOT casual. At all. In any sense of the word. I'm sorry, but that is definately indictive of a hardcore mentality.