TSO Instances: not casual?

Yella wrote:

Actually, the difference between you & me is very simple.
I understand that the only people who have been "excluded" from this game are those who have consciously chosen to exclude themselves.
You either don't understand that point, or else just don't care.
& quite frankly, after reading the post of yours just above this one, in which you accused me of having a "clear agenda" but didn't have the decency to explain to me what it is, & accused me of not caring about other people & thinking their playstyles are a waste of time to support .... well, frankly, after reading that bunch of wild-eyed tripe, I no longer care to try to help you understand that simple point.
Have a day.

some people are good
some people suck

some instances you can have a group full of the latter...
some you need more of the former.

figure out who is who, and invite accordingly.

Can't figure it out? You're probably in the latter.

Although I find TSO challenging I dont think theres any instance I would consider fun. It all seems like work and theres really no room for errors. Im not sure where the balance is between fun and challenge. Way back in eq1 the LDoN and DoN missions were fun packaged adventures and got to be a challenge when you were able to selct hard when you had geared up a bit and learned the way the instances worked. Without an easier option every instance is like pulling teeth. There are some fantastic ideas that just got out of hand. I know many players of different playstyles who have given up shard runs altogether because of the difficulty of even the easiest missions.
Im not sure what to say. Ive gotten a good chunk of shard gear for 3 different characters but I cant say Im ever excited to go on a shard run, not because I dont want to work for it( because id much rather run instances than raid), but because its just always a rough night that doesnt leave me feeling much like the hero. There is no consistency to what groups can do. One night my group of seasoned vets gets hammered and cant seem to do something another night a PUG performs wonderfully. So challenge has been put into the game but at the expense of fun. Its a shame. If I wanted this playstyle night after night I would raid.

What really blows my mind is that I haven't seen even ONE of these new instances that is any more difficult in its scripting than a standard named encounter in WoW.
I really don't know what more to say, but I think there's something really, really wrong with the notion that people can't handle scripted name encounters.

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

We've been having this *very* same discussion on our guild forums as of late.
I've played WoW. My wife and I played for about 7 months while we were moving and getting re-situated in our new home. We did some raiding, up to Sunwell. And while the over-all content for WoW is such that you can solo your way to the cap without ever grouping with another person, the group content that exists is *FAR* more challenging than anything EQ2 has to offer because EVERY single group instance is scripted. And raids? Raids are so scripted that it makes EQ2 raids look like a walk in the park. Putting a mob in the corner, jousting AoEs and using cure pots to cure the AoE does not = hard. And by far and large MOST of EQ2's encounters over the years have relied on the same type of encounter. Pull mob to corner to avoid KB, joust AoE, cure DoT. That's it. Same thing in raids, only the mobs have more hitpoints, larger AoE, and harder-hitting DoTs.
What I did not like about WoW was the amount of mods that even the most casual guilds require you to have installed in order to raid. Omen threat-meter = a joke. Having a mod that shows you when to hit your detaunt/taunt = no player skill involved when it comes to aggro management. It's a hack program that tells you how to beat the game. And let's not even get started on Welfare Epics, which the TSO shard gear is approaching. But I digress. The point is, WoW instances and raids make EQ2 look like a walk in the park while holding your mommy's hand and eating your ice-cream while walking your Golden Retriever and wearing a diaper.
HOWEVER! The Shadow Odyssey is a step in the right direction. And they also have some really good scripted encounters in RoK raid zones. People who think TSO instances are "too hard" are part of what I call the instant gratification generation. They want everything on a silver platter, they want it NOW, and they want to be as powerful as the top-tier gamers without having to put the time in. They want 15 minute instance runs with 5 named they can clear. Anything that takes longer than 15 minutes = OMG HARD, and any dungeon that requires 1.5 - 2 hours = unable to complete because it's too hardcore.
Remember back in EQ1 when you could inspect someone and tell what kind of player they were by the gear they had? You knew right away if they were a hardcore gamer or a casual, sit around and roleplay type of gamer. Progression meant something back in the day. People had to invest TIME, and it took SKILL to level to the cap because if you sucked you lost levels by dying over and over. Epic quests didn't take hours, they took WEEKS. I remember taking 6 months to get my ranger epic 1.0 and I wore those swords for nearly TWO years. Now, if a piece of gear lasts longer than a month I'm in shock. Nowadays EVERYONE is the same. You inspect a raid-geared tank and they have THE SAME gear on. The same hps, same avoidance, same mitigation, same resists, and the min/max/same AA spec. Same thing with any class. And it's not just EQ2. It's every game on the market today.
Dungeons used to take HOURS to clear in EQ1. I can remember going down into deep Chard or Seb and staying down for 5-6 hours clearing. Now days if you ask someone to do an instance they cry if it takes longer than 15 minutes, and I can't tell you how many times I get some PUG perp complaining that I'm not pulling fast enough. Get to the named get to the named get to the named!, that's all anyone cares about. The journey doesn't mean squat anymore, it's all about the race. Fast to the cap, no time investments, everyone is the same. The genre is so watered down that after 13 years of MMOing I've actually been contemplating retiring after I give up the ghost when EQ2 loses its luster.
TSO is not hard. It is not even remotely challenging. It requires little to no time investments. With persistant dungeons you can be the most hardcore slacker in the world and still get your shards because you can save the instances. The ONLY thing that is somewhat "challenging" is the fact that it requires INTELLIGENCE to overcome scripting. You aren't just able to park mob in corner, joust AoE, and use your cure pots. And THAT is why people are crying. The instant gratification generation of devolved players don't want to have to think.

Anyone seen the movie Wall-E? Or how about Idiocracy? For those of you who have, you know what I mean. That is what the modern-day MMO player is. The true nature of the beast. The current generation of players makes me sick. I literally get ill to my stomach to think that we (the community) have devolved to this point. I look at all of the games releasing for 2009-2010 and I just shake my head. EVERY single game is single player, point-and-shoot, go-afk-while-I-take-a-shower-and-the-game-will-be-beat-when-I-get-done games that are charging a monthly fee and masquerading as MMOs. No raid content. No group content. 100% solo. Log in when you want, advance as fast as you want, and NEVER be required to group with another player, much less talk to anyone else or build a community.
So my hat is off to you, instant gratification players. If you spent half as much time logging in and actually trying to complete the content that you spend posting and whining on the forums you'd likely have your mythical weapons by now and at least half of your VP set as well as cleared all of the TSO dungeons. But because whining = more important than playing, I get to read some entertaining posts on a daily basis that remind me just how blessed I am to have grown up in the industry and been able to participate in the games that were around when MMORPGs first started, and understand what it REALLY takes to progress.
I enjoy EQ2. I've played since the game went live, other than a stint when I was off in Vanguard. Sure, I have some complaints about the game, but I love my guild and I continue playing because this is THE LAST GAME OUT THERE which offers group-based content that focuses on players GROUPING with each other. And I don't to see the game nerfed down any more just to placate a handful of players who can't handle using their brains to play.

Thanon@Runnyeye wrote:

A perfect example that I was just thinking of last night: the final named mob in Scarlet Monastery: Cathedral, the woman with the male bodyguard.
You kill the bodyguard. Then, just as you get the woman down, she auto-stuns the entire group, rezzes her guy, heals him to full, & sends him back into the fight so you have to kill him again. The current generation of EQ2 players whining about scripts would have a conniption over that encounter, & many others like it. Imagine them dealing with the Zul'Furak Pyramid, much less some of the even more complex scripts later on.
& yet, apparently, even though I'm being told that the "casual" player is where the money is at ... I'm looking at WoW, with far more challenging group & raid content, sitting at millions more subscribers. It seems to me that the REAL money is in providing subscribers with a satisfying game experience, as opposed to spoon-feeding them a heaping dose of personal validation.

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

I think I just found one of the top 10 quotes for the New Year

Flaye@Mistmoore wrote:

Best post of the year. I think it is good to have a quick progression from 0-level max and then to provide some good content at the end. Keeps people in game.