TSO Instances: not casual?

I'm just wondering, does anyone think that the group instances in TSO are ment for casual players?
Is there any actual casual content in TSO?
My paladin is well equipped in RoK era instance gear. I've got half my masters, and the rest are adept 3 spells. I travel with the same group of people that I got most of this gear with. They are similarly equipped.
And yet, anytime we wander by any of the Befallen instances we constantly beat our heads against a wall. We'll be doing fine and then suddenly a named will pull a trick and I go from green to dead in about 2 seconds. This is traveling with 2 healers.
It isn't like we haven't read up on the fight strats. Even with solid information, the mob crits and boom I'm dead. I thought crit mittigation wasn't suppose to be an issue until you got to tier 2 raids? Why is it an issue in instanced content?
So far, I've found that 3 of the instances are do-able for a casual group in RoK gear. Does that mean we're suppose to farm 2 of them for shards until we can afford the tier 2 shard armor? The tier 1 shard armor is a downgrade for my equipment! Heck, most of the tier 2 shard armor isn't as good as half my equipment except for the crit mittigation.
So, what is the deal? Was I suppose to go raiding before TSO came out so I'd be ready for group content?

Befallen is not a good starting point for TSO instances. Cavern of the Afflicted is the only instance in Befallen that you should really have a chance with, and it has quite a trick to it.
In a deciently well rounded group of RoK geared non raid characters that know what they are doing, Scion of Ice, Everynight Abby, Mistmyr Manor, Veksar, Nu'Roga, Oblisk of Ahkzul and Deep Forge are all I would expect you to be able to clear without a decient amount of gearing up.
Even in those zones you will have some figuring out to do, even if you have a strat written down for you. The best thing to do is figure out what the encounter does, and then figure out the best way to deal with that based on the group you have.
In a lot of ways, TSO groups are similar to what raiders do at teh start of every expansion. Expect to die alot while you and everyone else figures out the encounters, but once that process is over, expect to be able to run 6 - 8 instances daily without any deaths.
Whether they are casual or not depends on your defination of casual. If you think casual = easy, then no, they are not casual. If you think casual means able to be completed in less than an hour, then yes, they are.

Oh my God PLEASE not yet ANOTHER topic on this same exact subject. There are at least 10 lengthy topics on this same subject in Zones and Population and Expansions.

Like someone else said "casual" could mean different things to different people.
I consider myself casual...my guild considers itself casual.
With exception of Befallen we have had no serious issues with the TSO instances...they are not easy by any means but after learning and trying different strats out they are very doable and quite fun.
That said...our raid force got completely owned by the first few trash mobs in Tomb of the Mad Crusador =P

I think that players who solo all the time with little grouping experience will have trouble in TSO. You can't just tank and spank your way through it. These instances are more like mini raids, and the same rules apply as on regular raids. Guilds and groups who work together all the time will fair much better than pickups.

If you want to clear the dungeons, you will need a full group or near to it and experience playing your character in a group. BUT if your main goal is void shards, there are at least 4 void shard quests which can be done by the most casual group. Please see my posts in one of the other topics on this exact same issue.

Thunndar316 wrote:

I'm not sure how this applies at all. I'm grouping with the same people I did all of RoK with. We've read strats on these zones. Like I said, TSO's tier 2 shard armor is mostly a downgrade for me except for the crit mittigation.
So, if we're fairing much better than pick up groups, does that indicate that pick up groups are mostly dead? Does it mean that people that don't have the time to devote to raiding should cancel their subscriptions and go find a more casual friendly game? Should I troll the solo content? Should I join the rest of the server and just go into a mentored instance?
And yeah, it is a lot like raiding. We read up on the strats, tried to follow them. Wiped time after time. Went out, repaired and came back. Its exactly like raiding. Raiding isn't causal. Raiding isn't even fun. Its just a huge time sink to keep you playing the game and the money flowing into SOE. There are huge rewards from raids that can't be obtained without raiding. That is the reason you put up with raiding. Why exactly am I going through the frustrations of a raid without the chance of an equal reward? Or are the instance drops actually as good as tier 1 raids?

Casual means different things to different people.
My personal view on it is that casual is a state of mind that has absolutely nothing to do with sucess ratings. It's the belief that you can log into the game and play it when and how you want, raid a few times a week, see all of the content that the game has to offer, without dealing with mandatory raid participation and etc etc etc.
That being said...our guild just recently start flagging for VP. Most of our guild is geared up in RoK Instance loot + some T1 - T3 fabled gear. I personally found the TSO legendary shard gear to be pretty damn good for my guardian. I've got the full set already, and it was far superior to anything I pulled out of RoK when you include the set bonuses.
Regular shard armor = better than ROK legendary, on par with t1-t2 RoK fabled
Advanced shard armor = worse than VP, on par with t3 RoK fabled.
Most of our guild is now geared up in 4-5 of the set pieces + epics + anywhere from 4-6 fabled RoK raid drops. We only have a handful of mythicals. We are not "hardcore", but we are successful. I've personally cleared almost all of the TSO dungeons by this point, with the exception of the Guk instances because, quite frankly, I don't think we have the gear quite yet in terms of DPS (fabled epics just don't cut it in some cases: some of these encounters are tuned towards players having their mythicals, and I'm fine with that. Gives us something more to achieve and look forward to).
I've said all that to say this: TSO is not meant for the weak-hearted. This is an expansion primarily designed with players who thrive on challenge rating in mind. I have yet to see a single tank-and-spank encounter in TSO. Do they require raid gear? Absolutely not. We were able to complete all 3 Everfrost dungeons on the first try with RoK instance legendary and a few RoK raid fabled pieces + regular fabled epics. We cleared Abbey, Deep Forge, Nu'Roga, Veksar, and I believe Hollow Tower with the same gear. Then we started getting the set pieces. Since then we've cleared Manor, the second Befallen zone, Kor-sha, the first two Void instances...basically we have cleared all but the 3 Guk zones, the final Void dungeon, and the last Befallen one...Necrotic Asylum. Will we do them? Yep. But we aren't even bothering to try at present until we finish gearing up, because we know in advance that A) those dungeons require better gear than we have and B) Sony isn't yet finished tuning a lot of these encounters and there are still a lot of bugs.
Strats will vary depending on your group setup. TSO requires the ability to think on the fly and adapt your strategies accordingly. We run 4-5 different groups per night in our guild and EACH group takes the dungeons in a different way each time depending on the group makeup. The ability to free-think and adapt to the situation is what makes or break groups in this expansion. While gear is important, player skill and the ability to adapt play an equally important role.

Meirril wrote:

Your dislike of raiding has nothing to do with why you are having trouble in TSO.
As I have said in a few threads today....I came back to EQ2 in Aug 08 after quiting way back in CU#13. So at best after getting to level 80...I had about 2monhts of hitting RoK before TSO came out. My groups have wiped numerious times trying to figure out many of the TSO instance encounters..often 4 or 5 times before we figured it out but we did. My gear when TSO came out was a mix of RoK instance legendary...with a few T1/2 fabled drops. To be honest since TSO release I have not read a single strat/spoiler on the web. We either figured it out on our own or we got intel from other guildmates that had completed them....that in and of itself is refreshing
While dificult and challenging the TSO instance are no where near the level of frustration that raids can be. TSO instances are actually fun...fun to learn..fun to figure out....they did a good job of giving people the info via NPC text and such needed to solve the various encounters. And once you have them figured out...going back to the instances is fast and still fun.
From what ive seen there are at leat 4-5 TSO instances that any good group geared in RoK legendary should be able to do. Its not a cake walk...but its not impossible.
And yes I have seen some instance drops that are comprabable/better than some T1 raid stuff.

Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote:

I honesty think that TSO is my favorite EQ2 expansion to-date. With the exception of one encounter in the dungeons we have done so far we have figured out every dungeon without using strategies and only relying on the people within the guild. It's always a rush to be the first person to figure something out and to do it with your group of friends. The one fight we asked out-of-guild was actually the mage trio in The Crucible. We were on the right track about placement, we just didn't know why they weren't wanting to stay placed...and ended up looking it up online. Was a big ahh yeaaah moment when we read it, because we were on the right track, just wrong about the "when" they were supposed to lock in place.
I *love* how the dungeons are all extremely unique and have hints and clues throughout that help lead you to figuring out how things work. The scripting is great! I think my favorite so far are the three Loping Plains dungeons (abbey, manor, ravenscale) and the second Befallen one...Halls of the Forsaken? There are some really unique and challenging encounters that were a hell of a lot of fun to figure out. Reaaaaaaly love the Manor
But I fully agree. Our groups are a point in case. Our guild isn't a full VP geared guild. We started TSO with a mixture of RoK instance legendary/fabled and t1-t3 raid fabled. Only a handful of people have their mythicals done. We have been able to clear every TSO dungeon we've attempted, other than the Guk ones, and I don't think anyone from our guild has really bothered because we know our gear isn't suited and also are waiting for SoE to finish ironing out the bugs with some of the more difficult mobs. I know myself personally am staying away from the Guk dungeons, as well as Necrotic Asylum and the Palace of Ferzhul (hardest void dungeon) until I finish my mythical and have a few more better pieces. Not only do I want to be geared better before I go in there, it gives us something to look forward to and strive towards. They weren't meant to be cleared right away...they were meant to be reserved for the best players with the best gear in the game. That's cool...it's progression. I like progression. It's why I raid, and why I've been playing MMOs for 12+ years now.
With the exception of a couple of a few RoK raid fabled, the new armor pieces (depending on the class) are amazing. I was in the RoK legendary set when TSO started, with only the fabled shoulders from Maiden's and the fabled tower from SoH and the TSO shard set was a *huge* upgrade for my guardian. I have 5 out of 6 of the initial set and I have the same stats as a t2-t3 raid-fabled tank, and I didn't have to farm for the past 6 months to get it. I totally disagree with all of the people saying the new shard armor sucks, because outside of our VP geared players the entire guild has been equipping the shard armor pieces as soon as we can earn them. Most of us have 5 pieces atm and working on our 6th, and also a couple of the jewelery pieces. This new expansion is GREAT for the "casual" gamers, because it allows you to earn some pretty damn good gear. I can also see why some of the full-time raiders are a little upset atm, because while they had to farm t1-t3 for 4-6 months to gear up for VP, this new expansion is allowing players to gear up for VP/TSO within a matter of mere weeks.
Bottom line is that no, these dungeons are not targeted towards any demographic. But you have to have intelligence and players who can play their classes to the utmost limits of their capabilities and maintain their ability to think outside the box while moving quickly on their mental feet. You will be able to handle a good third of the new dungeons with mere RoK legendary quest/instance gear, and by the time you get done doing 5 or 6 dungeons you will have a minimum of 2 shards per dungeon (x1 mission + chests) which gives you 10-12 shards, more than enough for your first two set pieces. You can then farm those dungeons again or more onto a more challenging one, but the whole point was that the first 3rd of the dungeons are "easy", the second 3rd require better gear and more skill, and the final third require the best gear in the game combined with mental fleetness. If your group is failing at these dungeons with the gear you say you have, then you need to adress the players behind the characters, because quite frankly it appears that the only thing holding you back is yourself.

Meirril wrote:

Just switch mindsets and your fine.. Its less tank and spank, and more about using strats. Once the strat is learned, the encounters are friggin easy..
Every encounter I learn, I very much explain to everyone what to do before engaging the encounter. If its new ppl, we possibly wipe first pull, but then we discuss what went wrong before next attempt.
And yes, u will wipe and wipe untill u figure out what to do.. Unless your group is very well equipped where u can just burn burn burn...
If u keep failing on a certain encounter, then just move on and find a new zone.. then come back another day and try again when your not angry because u cant get the strat to work.
All my groups are pickup groups.. my only requirement is lvl 80.. I usually go with 2 healers, 1 enchanter, myself (tank) and 2 dps(scout/mage) if I can find them.. But also done The Crucible with 5 ppl in a pickup group(without torches on the final named).. Im mostly RoK instance equipped except from a couple of fabled pieces(Vp Boots, mythical, and soh shield).
And yes.. the rewards from some of these zones are equal to or better than VP gear.. (except perhaps the VP set gear).

I agree with what most people are saying, most of the encounters in TSO are initially tricky to learn but fun afterwards.

Heroic content in TSO is just differently designed than before, it now shares a major thing with raids, scripts.
Before you figure out the script you will get your a** kicked very fast and hard.
After you figured out the scripts its simply tank spank and follow script.
Give it a few weeks and more full walkthroughs will show up when people finally realize that the discos are gone and they cant loose anything anymore from giving away the strat.

feldon30 wrote:

which would clearly indicate that not everyone (paying customers) is happy with the new style of dungeon.

Thanon@Runnyeye wrote:

This is why the game for me, a casual player is nearly over. To me, casual is someone who solo's and groups dungeons occasionally. The last time I raided was back in EoF. I don't care to ever do it again. SoE has taken everything I disliked about raiding and applied it to the casual content that I previously enjoyed.
I have gone into some of the EASY (green) dungeons and seen 11k hp tanks die in two hits or less. It /boggles me that this is fun to anyone. The vast majority of the lvl 80's in my guild now just spent time on lower level alts instead of enjoying the new content.
I'm SURE there are people the just love the new dungeons and the scripts. I play a templar because I enjoy grouping, she rarely solos at all. Currently I can admit I am not enjoying the grouping. Wiping, rebuffing 10 times isn't FUN to me.

feldon30 wrote:

I wonder why? it should be obvious by now the way that TSO fails at providing anything for casual or small group players. The new zones range from intermediate to incridibly difficult. There are no "easy" zones.

I agree, give it time, start small with the few easier instances. Learn those, get some gear from them, and slowly work your way up. A lot of them seem harder than they are, but once you learn the tricks for handling the scripts, they become much easier. Some are just downright hard on casuals, but you can get to those when you've geared up and gotten used to the easier ones. Scion of Ice, Deep Forge, Evernight Abbey, and Halls of Forsaken are all good starts, instances that, once the group understands the scripts and learns what to do at the right times, become quite easy. They won't feel easy until the group figures them out, but it'll happen eventually.
I remember when RoK came out, and people strolled on into KC the first day...and promptly got their butts handed to them because the RoK mobs hit harder than anyone was used to. People felt then that casuals and unconventional groups had gotten screwed for the expansion (heck, I felt that way some days back then.) Now, today, KC is a cakewalk.
When RoK first came out, Maiden's was a nightmare for a lot of groups who didn't have awesome gear and the perfect setup. It simply wasn't doable for a lot of folks. But by the end of the year, before TSO came out, people had learned, adjusted, and gotten better gear. Heck, some friends and I 4 manned it easily. One healer, no chanter, no bard, no mythicals, no VP gear on any of us.
TSO has new things most people aren't used to, mostly the scripts. Once they learn, adapt, and get some of the new gear, things will be a lot easier. And a year from now, when the next expansion comes out, the majority of TSO will be considered pretty easy again.

Lethe5683 wrote:

TSO provides plently of content for casual players.
Casual tradeskillers have solo crafting missions and faction writs they are able to do, casual guild group and casual pickup group players have 20 instances they can run, although only 12 or so of them are suitable to casual groups of any kind until they gear up, and casual raiders will be able to kill the first 2 names in Tombs of the Mad Crusader without too much issue.
What this expansion does not offer is large amounts of content for the casual soloer whom refuses to group and does not craft, which is a subset of the casual player, which itself is a subset of the greater population of the game.
As a point of note, no expansion to date has offered the top end raider, which is a subset of the raider group, which itself is a subset of the greater population, sufficient content to keep them happy either.

Letty@Antonia Bayle wrote:

People that do not raid, or that are on the tail end of raiding, have never had this issue before. Scripts have never really been a major factor in heroic content, and now every single zone has some form of script to follow.
People say that only raiders were able to clear Nu'Roga in the the first few days of the expansion, unless non raid groups bypassed Bricktop. They claimed gear was the reason.
What they failed to realise was that the reason raiders were able to kill this mob is because we were able to figure out the strat after a single pull, or during the first pull. This is not because we are smarter or better, it is because we have spent the last 5 years doing exactly that, pulling mobs and figuring out a strat to kill them.
On the third day of TSO, I tanked Nu'Roga with my guardian alt. He has his fabled epic, but no other fabled items. He was stil using a buckler for that instance because he didn't have anything else. The rest of the group was similarly equipped, as they were all second - third rate guild alts, suffice to say, the average non raiding pickup group is better geared than we were. We cleared the zone without issue, because we knew the strat (which I have since posted, even though I hate doing that).

Everquest 2 is the last game on the market that offers anything even resembling group content. Every other game out there caters to the solo, casual player who wants things handed to them on a silver platter.
I work as a freelance writer. Part of what I do is write game guides for MMORPGs. Without giving away too much, I have access to several betas at present for games that are coming out in the next 6-12 months that are the "next generation" of MMORPGs. They are all single player games masquerading as MMORPGs. No grouping. Solo content to the cap. No raids. Never a single moment when you are required to group with another person. Never a single instance when you need to rely on someone else. NPCs you can hire out to run missions for you (Guild Wars anyone?) 100% bonafide solo content with a monthly fee attached.
I, for one, am extremely glad that this expansion caters to the group-minded individual who wants to have challenges to overcome with a group of friends...content that requires teamwork and strategy. If I want to solo, if I want to be babysat, I'll go play NWN2, LOTRO, WoW, Guild Wars, Tabula Rasa, Fallout 3, Halo 3, COD4, or any of the other numberous solo/casual-friendly games on the market to-date.
EQ2 has already given in to the solo/casual crowd with a lot of the mechanics. Rest experience/vitality is nothing more than a way to placate the whiney casual players who cried about the hardcore players leveling too much faster than them, creating a disparity in levels. Fine, SoE gave you the ability to have enhanced exp in order to keep up. When that wasn't enough, they introduced persistant dungeons, which effectively allows even the most casual players in the world to still complete raid content by saving their progress and breaking it up into smaller sessions. Even I had to admit that was a pretty cool feature. And let's not forget forced lockout timers, which even further restrict the progress of hardcore players and cater specifically to the casual crowd by forcing people to progress at a certain rate in order to avoid gear disparity and create an EQ1 scenario where the hardcore guilds were literally 8-12 months beyond any of the other guilds because they had more hours in the day to play or they were simply smarter players.
I give mad props to the EQ2 developers for having the rock-hard steel balls to put out an expansion which goes against the grain of modern-day MMOing. Forced grouping? /gasp! That's like...so 90's! Everyone knows you can't require grouping or you will lose your playerbase. Solo content is the only way to make money!
/yawn
The strategies are easy. With the exception of a few zones that *are* gear-specific, almost all of the TSO dungeons have strategies that--once figured out--enable players to beat the encounters with very little emphasis on gear. Players who don't want to have to think when they play shouldn't be subscribing to EQ2. Go sub to WoW where other players write mods that tell you when to hit your taunt, when the mob is going to AoE, when you should stop DPSing, cure other players for you, and basically beat the game for you. Nothing makes me laugh more than WoW players who say "we are so hardcore, we are the number 1 guild out there!" because every single one of those WoW players is running a series of mods that tell them when to push a button. (Not bashing WoW, because I do think it's a fun game). Brainless gaming = boring. If you want boring, there are plenty of other games out there that offer you exactly what you want...spoon-fed content. As a matter of fact, I already listed several of them.
Fact is, even the TSO dungeons are a cake-walk once you figure out the strategies. Sometimes it takes a couple of tries your first time through but once you figure things out, blam, you are on farm status. Even the raid zones in EQ2 don't require too much thought-processing past the initial strategy think-tank sessions.

So I would like to give a shout out to the SoE developers for giving us a group-oriented expansion that is proving to be a hell of a lot of fun and a welcome reprieve from the spoon-fed drivel that every other Western MMO on the market is feeding us. Three cheers for you guys!