Troubadore Mez - Duration/Recast Changes Needed in PVP

Discussion in 'Test Server Forum' started by Ecno, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Darksanity Member

    I find it hard to understand how you feel the need to people bash, I know for a fact you raged on Flames when Ecno killed you using a mezz signet, so tbh you have been the only one coming off as angry and bitter Accolas. The changes the Troub class need are 100% warranted, from Bag Pipes solo to Mezz being looked at and tbh only usable every 40secs instead of 20. Also if you want to get technical, the 100% immunity to dmg and allowing you to continue casting and DPSing is complete BS and needs changed to cause a daze during duration just like the ability Assassins have.. In a game where most fights end in 10-15secs or less, a 12 sec 100% immunity to DMG is to extreme.
  2. Ecno Well-Known Member

    Oh its 4/5 times I used Vessel now? Well clearly in your previous posts/thread you said we fought 7 times... 3 of which you said I used vessel. Is there a reason that your story is changing and your a back pedaling instead of providing factual unbias feedback. Originally you also assumed/stated that I used mischief maker when in fact as you admitted later on in the flames post... (after I posted definitive proof with a screen shot of all the deity quests I have completed) that I was actually tribunal not Bristlebane so there was no possible way I could have used mischief maker. I dont know why you keep assuming things instead of KNOWING exactly what you are talking about before you mention it.

    You mezzed me 4-6 times in the fights in the fights that were 1 min 30 sec to 2 mins long...In the fights that I did not use an anti mez... ironically all of the fights I lost, I didnt have an anti mez. Do you see a pattern here? I do...

    BTW is there a reason youre ignoring my request to show the video of our 7-8 fights in common lands and only showing the fights that I got destroyed on my first day back from an extended break? I mean if you are correct in everything you are saying and want to prove the point it would be very helpful for you and all of us to see those fights. I know you have them, as you record all of your fights, especially when fighting me.

    Your fight that you keep choosing to show as I stated and admitted I was not at my best since I just came back and clearly needed to learn about the new changes that were made. The first one I learned about on my day back as bagpipe solo and your mez spamming abilities... both of which were new to me thus why the fight was very one sided.

    Also I dont need to see the thread on flames, we are on the official forum... trying to constructively get to the bottom of this so that there is a balanced and acceptable change for all players. I would also appreciate it if you could stop putting words in my mouth, state things I have said... when actually I never said multiple of the things you are stating, yet you continue to do so to help your situation here (prevent a balance to your class from happening that is HIGHLY needed).
  3. acoloss Active Member

    when you have the dmg a troubadour does in comparison to other classes.. yes... it's needed.

    Who is your in game toon may i ask?
  4. Ecno Well-Known Member

    No sorry, I am cool and collected... raging is what you are doing I believe??? Seems like it...

    This isnt flames Acolos/Vaco... youre not going to get away with the stuff you do over there. I personally suggest you keep on subject and constructively try to prove your point instead of resorting to petty childish tactics of degrading a player/person for whatever reason you see fit.

    If you could do this, it would be better overall as we could jointly come to an agreement on a fair balance for your class. You have to compromise at some point and admit that your class needs a balance. The sooner you do, the better chance that that balance is fair to both parties.
  5. acoloss Active Member

  6. Ecno Well-Known Member

    I thought you already knew who his character was since you stated that he was my friend earlier just here to back me up? It sounds like that you were making a false statement to try and justify why others are in here agreeing with me.


    Does it really matter who his character is btw? Regardless of who he is or what class he plays, his opinion here is still valid and he is allowed to voice that opinion just as you are. Although I do believe that your way of voice your opinion in this matter is very bias and has little fact or data to back up all these claims that you are stating.

    Care to back your opinion up with some constructive data such as all video of all our duels in common lands where this whole situation and need for a balance was discovered by myself/others attending the duel event? This is the third time I have asked you to show those videos and youre still ignoring me. Is there a reason you are refusing to show those videos that I know you have? Is it possible that those videos might not help your case, and only hurt it thus why you are being bias by not choosing to show them. Honestly you should just let the videos speak for themselves by letting everyone in this thread see them so they can draw their own conclusions from them... whatever those conclusions may be.
  7. Cynicisim Active Member

    Please stop attacking a class based on your experiences with one player. As I said before.. not one single request or thread for any troub "adjustment" until Vaco started playing again and posted his vids. Not a single thread!!

    My concern is not to be OP, but to be a class that can still solo pvp. Yes, we are "support" but that does not mean we are limited to the same place as the bard mercs (aka dirge). When compared to any other class on the basis of DPS and Survivability, Troubs are not at the top of any of them. At the rate nerfs are being requested troubs will be back to where Dirges are and everyone admits that is not a place to be.

    I have to wonder after years of having mez studenly it needs an adjustment.
  8. Ardur Duradan Well-Known Member

    in for making a thread that patches the game to improve ecnos skill so he is more of a challenge. I watched the video on pvp and watched him make literally every cardinal mistake in a pvp match. He is obviously of no value when it comes to constructive/balancing pvp.

    If anything is going to give the devs insight on something that needs to be balanced, any sort of bias needs to be removed.


    so keep your sissy slapfest on flames please.
  9. Denzei New Member

    In my opinion, the Troub mezz duration and recast are both just fine. As some people have mentioned, you shouldn't base opinions of a class upon the experiences of fighting one specific player, which is clearly being done here, but rather upon the experiences of fighting as many as possible in both open, "sudden" pvp as well as in an organized way, such as proper 1v1s.

    I've fought several Troubadours, and in my experience they are clearly difficult classes to beat... but, the fact that it is not impossible to win only means that the current power balance is good. If I could beat any class with ease, no matter how well they play, I would say that I'm OP. If another class could beat me with ease, no matter how well I play, then I would say that that class is OP... Right now, I believe that every class have a good chance of beating another class for as long as you stay focused and don't make mistakes.

    With the (if I'm not mistaken) nerf of BPS, Troubadours will have a harder (not impossible, but harder) time again, and to break one of their main tools, the mezz, you would surely ruin a class which is fine as it is...
  10. Xeos Well-Known Member

    That is not accurate. That entirely relies on the weaker class fighting the superior class with greater skill, gear, items and preperation. On equal footing there are many "rock, paper, scissor" scenarios still present in game.
  11. Denzei New Member

    Also that is not entirely accurate. Obviously my previous statement and that which you quoted is only my opinion, and I base that opinion upon my previous experiences in PvP both in fights where I've won and where I've lost :). I do agree that skill matters, for sure. I believe that by adjusting the way you play your class according to what opponent you fight, both depending on class and expected skill level of that opponent, any class have a good chance of beating another class, hence my earlier statement.

    If two different classes fight it out and both are very skilled, then I rather think that the one using the right "strategy" wins. In that sense, your "rock, paper, scissor" metaphor is sound.
  12. Xeos Well-Known Member

    A good example of this is Brawler vs Scout or any pure melee class. Far more often than not, the brawler will win.
  13. Luanne Active Member

    As long as they fix beastlord primals (like half the damage they do now) I'll be happy. beastlords are really a game ruiner right now when either team has one it makes the whole battle no fun. And probably #2 would be illusionists, they have to be fixed somehow so they can't lock down entire groups for 10-15s at a time (normally that would be ok but with people killing others in 3 seconds, locking down for 15s is absurd)
  14. Slant Well-Known Member

    CC From Mez to Mez:



    And from the victim side, notice though he spams evade he never gets a chance to cast it.




    I know you are going to attack me for this being staged but if I were to use an 1v1 video you would not be able to see it from both sides.
  15. Slant Well-Known Member

    As for your list-
    1. With the 2.7 sec stun after mezz ends you have some wiggle room.
    2. 100% agree, as i said in my last post EVERYTHING in this CC chain can be countered.
    3. Evasive Maneuvers does have a long recast, thats why, as i said in my last post, you replace it with Round Bash and rotate between the two with each chain.
    4. Once again, any player worth his salt will counter this.
    5. I rarely dont land my stifle, I'm sorry I dont know what to tell you.
    6. Yes CC is counterable, and you would be silly not to counter it.
    7. If they are CCed then there is no risk, Keep an eye on their effect bar, if you see a CC pot or a cure, smack him with breathtaking bellow and kite his ***.
    8. If done properly once you are out of CC they will no longer have immunity, you have over 12 secs of CC other than mezz, which, if well timed will guarantee that their immunity will be gone.

    So... the chain DOES work and though you dont like it. It is overkill. No class should have the potential to perma CC even if it can be countered. Changing mezz immunity to 30secs would not kill the class it would only reduce our potential CC from infinity to something actually reasonable.
  16. acoloss Active Member

    There was actually a time to evade.. in your fake video you should click faster. Also, why would you doing all the jumping around if you are testing something? and most importantly, where is the DPS? and what happens when evasive manoeuvres is on cool down?
    but please continue reading...

    5.. you must be fighting people with poor gear if your stifle lands all the time.. in my video you will see that everytime i've used it, it's probably landing 1/5 times.

    i know you are not happy about the ranger thread i made... but ,, here is the most important thing if you want to play this sort of "game". And this really just proves that your point you are trying to make is completely invalid... and MY point is 100% more valid.

    I tested this -- a ranger can kill someone in 3 seconds if he's lucky, and 4 seconds is ENOUGH time, 5 definitely... longer if they are un geared rangers.

    This means.. if the ranger casts his cheapshot >> evade >>evasive manoeuvres >> stun/root.... there is a minimum of 4 seconds to do something, in fact longer... (and this could be done with just evade and EM) now, how's that for overpowered?
    You can kill someone in 4 seconds and also make them not target you for 4 seconds? do you get it?

    What you are trying to prove is not valid at all, never happens, and even if you managed to time everything perfectly, you'd do almost zero DPS +, you could only do it once, not over and over... if you check my videos, this has never happened in 100+ fights.


    your video is not really fooling anyone...
    The easiest way to test your theory is as follows... find me the best troubadour you can

    I will pick one of each of these classes to kill them, maybe one might lose:

    Warlock
    Wizard
    Illusionist
    Coercer
    Brigand
    Swashy
    Paladin
    SK
    Assassin
    Ranger
    Necro
    Conjuror


    also... later.. let me know when you are in game.. i have a lvl 79 toon in exile... we will try your technique and see how long it lasts.. (not a fight, just your technique)..
    You can have 10 attempts at what you did in the video.. i will spam evade.. you do that without getting evaded.
    I'd pretty much guarantee that, even if you managed to do it once.. the 2nd time you won't get anywhere.

    What you are saying could be done on a swashy so he does a chain which means he has 8 seconds of DPS.. same with a brig.. and with a ranger/assassin... except they can kill in that duration.

    You are really not getting anywhere
  17. acoloss Active Member

    I'll break down what you tried to tell us:


    Enemy is Mezzed...
    you allow the mez to expire so it stuns.
    you then stifle...
    after the stifle you evade...
    then you EM..
    then throw in a cheapshot/shield bash...
    Then Mez

    it doesn't work, i've tried... because:

    1. Stifle virtually never lands at lvl 95.
    2. you would need to be accurate to 200ms on every attack (precasting them before the other expires), which is less than my actual latency of - on average 250ms. and this is with DPS'ing in between??
    3. People use Freedom of Minds (if they didn't, they'd die to a brig/swash/assassin extremely easy)... once they used something the first time you couldn't do it a second time.
    4. like in your video which you probably recorded 10 times, you'd have to start casting mez, and during the casting the mez immunity expires.. 1 mistake here and that's mez gone.
    5. People are moving.. whether they are trying to get range (no stun), or trying to get on top of you.
    6. You could only do it once, even if you was Data from startrek,
    7. you would do virtually no DPS..
    8. the error chance of being so accurate would mean an exponential chance of failure in the next chains (but you can't do it anyway because EM is down).
    9. 1 error is death... the best way is to stay ranged and not bother trying to do an impossible chain.... or if against a ranger chase them. If you do a chain and you miss a 0.2second exact spell cast stood next to a brigand/swashy, or you are ranged casting your stifle (against a ranger)... when they are spaming evade.. then, what are you going to do???



    as i said.. what you are saying is like:

    A Brig can lock you down for near 8 seconds (guess)... which is more that enough time for them to kill you... this also assumes you have no freedom of mind. So this means brigs need a nerf?? no.
    A Swashy can do the same thing as above... need nerf? no
    An Assassin can press evade then kill you before it wears off (well, not a good example).. need nerf? tbh no, but they are being nerfed.
    A Ranger can do basically the same... except from range with 3 snares (cheapshot, run through, root? backsnare, cheapshot wears off, evade, scout snare... u r miles away.. unload.. get evaded? np use cure pot, lots of time)....need nerf? yes, too much dps from range... but are you really going to be that accurate?

    in reality, none of the above happen in the real world... and to kill someone using the technique you described would be impossible, even if it was a script on an NPC on the actual Nagafen server.


    If you watch my videos, you will see i've never actually done that once... it's impossible in real world PvP...
    and if you did manage to do it once (which is possible if you are related Jesus).. you would have taken 10% of their HP and wasted all your temps... 2nd time is game over. one evade from a dps scout when in melee range = death.. and same with ranger when at range.

    there's no need to target troub because of the thread i posted about Rangers.
  18. Exur Well-Known Member

    This is a silly topic.. move on.. or name me more then 2 people WW that can successfully kill you or others with this rotation/repeat mez trick. It's not as easy as you think it is. You're also talking about a slightly broken class (troub) at the moment.

    ... no way I'm reading all these post.. I read OP and that's it.
  19. Luanne Active Member

    It is easier than you think it is, illusionists can do this and lock you down indefinitely. You'll never have a chance to cast anything. There are a lot of players that are 'new' and haven't pvped as long as we have. I've been pvping for 7 years on this game (maybe more and I forgot lol). Once you have that kind of experience you do not even need to look at your hotbars, you just KNOW when to hit stuff and how to rotate things and you do it, and it destroys the enemy. Assassin can stun, stifle, and then stun again.
    Somehow rogues can lock you down for 8-10 seconds even though all they have is stuns? I haven't figured out how they do it yet. I've tried to recreate it on my brig (which i'm pretty noob at since i haven't had it long) but i can't do it. I have 4 stuns on my brig but i can't chain them back to back, yet when brigs attack me i get chain stunned, so obviously one of them isn't procing immune (maybe stupefying?) or there would be no way to chain them beacuse of the immunity.
    I'm glad there is a dev that is taking time to test and check all these things, and also listens to feedback from people who actually play these classes. I wish a rogue would chime in a say how they can stunlock someone for 10 seconds when the max stuns they have lasts 3.2s.
    I know that the encounter mez/target mez on illusionist, one of them seems to mez even though you are immune but it doesn't happen every time and it seems to depend which one you use first. Also somtimes when I have stun immune i get stunned by someone ELSE, which is weird since i'm supposed to be immune yet another person can stun me. It's obviously broken in a few areas but it's very difficult to find out and track down exactly what is causing it.
  20. Owli Member

    Agree, troubs need to be toned down. As well as Swashbucklers and Brigands.