Troubador Adjustments

Discussion in 'Troubador' started by ARCHIVED-Xelgad, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. ARCHIVED-Onoddil Guest

    Tbh, keep changes that are currently on test but:

    add spell ma to the two items in the STA line as well as melee ma;
    increase csong duration to 20s and base to 5-7 mins;
    add potency to potm;
    add slight combat skills to daeli's and slight casting skills to death's door;
    add something similar to the new dirge myth proc such as cb/reuse to our myth proc;
    return overture to its original state and make painful the blue with the increase in damage (mitigated on test, obviously);
    remove extra agi from raxxyl's and give JC *some* immunity because that's a bit silly imo :p.

    Either that, or keep the dirge myth proc as it is because nerfing is worse than buffing/fixing, and add max spell damage to ours in a similar vein. Just do the same for each of the two subclasses and it's fine...
    EDIT: @Buffrat, if you notice my well thought out post only contains one thing that I'd like to see to buff personal dps... A new myth proc. Our one does 400dps. Everything else is just extra utility that accidentally buffs us (see potency on potm). I even suggested removing something that does not fit with the "theme" of Troubadours. Please don't /rage.

    Ono
  2. ARCHIVED-Laiina Guest

    Lcneed wrote:
    That's a joke I assume. Compared to the troub myth, the dirge myth is probably the most overpowered myth in the game.
    Fixing it - finally - is not a nerf.
    And having seen about 10x as many troubs betray to dirge as going the other way, that should tell that something is wrong somewhere.
  3. ARCHIVED-tfetterman Guest

    One last thing, any chance of changing the myth effect to Crit Bonus rather than Crit Chance. Given the changes and the new dirge myth, I think that's fair.
  4. ARCHIVED-Shotneedle Guest

    Troub myth was better than dirge myth.
  5. ARCHIVED-tfetterman Guest

    DeciimusTiger wrote:
    I don't think anyone gets it. Troubs are scouts first and foremost. Don't change the gear!
  6. ARCHIVED-tfetterman Guest

    Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    Ha Ha...that's funny!
  7. ARCHIVED-DeciimusTiger Guest

    tfetterman wrote:
    Dude, 90% of our buffs are directed toward spells & casters. Our biggest hitters other than straight melee are Spells... so on what planet does it make sense to have combat art mods on our gear?
  8. ARCHIVED-Anestacia Guest

    Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    In theory, I would agree here. IMO both bards are SUPPORT classes and should make support thier number 1 function. However, there are SO many people that have turned this game into a pure parsing numbers game and you have some (fools imo) that come down on the bards because they feel that thier parse is not good enough. They rarely stop to think that THEY would not be getting those numbers w/o us. I dont advocate a bard just standing there of course; do as much DPS as you can without neglecting to buff the people with the REAL dps. And by the same token, dont worry about what your bard is parsing, you just worry about your dps and be thankful you have that support class to help you.
  9. ARCHIVED-Shotneedle Guest

    tfetterman wrote:
    I'm sorry you don't see that 10% group potency was worth as much if not more than the dirge's self max hit proc.
  10. ARCHIVED-adolf102 Guest

    It would be great if you could update "Raxxyl's Rousing Tune"
    Before Int and Wis become useless, it was giving us as a caster benefits as well.
    Now it does not. (well tiny with Mitigation)
    Maybe it can boost all stats instead of Wis and Int?
    Since it's take concentration slot it should be something worth turning on. Now I don't use it when soloing and I don't us it in groups either.
  11. ARCHIVED-SOE-MOD-07 Guest

    This post has moved: /eq2/posts/preList.m?topic_id=502816&post_id=5631108 Removed at poster's request
  12. ARCHIVED-Netty Guest

    Buffrat@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    Are you joking or what? Dirges get 10% CA troubs to spells. raidwide to cob/potm. And last effect max damage to melee vs small damage proc and 15% crit. How was the troub myth better again?
    Dirge myth was op and facts still stands that its on of the best mythical buffs out there if it stays as it is on test. But this is a troub thread so pls try and keep the dirge complains out of it.

    Spell DB attack instead of the CC porc and increas it to around 30% or something. Some changes look good really some are as xelgad said minor. Agi on raxxyl's wont do much tho still something for the other scouts in the group for the guilds that have a birg or what ever in the mage group. I do agree aswell with boosting the groups surviveability abit would help both if you run with a crusader or just the mages in the group. So that would be cool really.

    Power... well to be honest sure its nice to counter the coecer since the illu is abit weaker to power feed but i rather would see them boosting the illu power feed instead of giving it to troubs.
  13. ARCHIVED-xdeadumx Guest

    What i have to say might make most troubs angry.
    Give us poisons. we are a scout and should be able to use them.
    As well, keep dirge melee range and make troubs more of ranged dps. Give troubs some pbae short term caster dmg increases. We buff casters, let us stand with them where they can hear our songs. Which imo dirge should keep a slightly higher dps output due to having to rez and being in proximity of frontals and close ranged ae's.
    Everything else is a step in the right direction. Thanks for giving us some lovins.
    Troubum - Antonia-Bayle.
  14. ARCHIVED-Shotneedle Guest

    Netty wrote:
    Because 10% potency to spells for an illy, warlock, wizard, troub, and sometimes 3rd mage is worth a LOT more than 10% potency to a fighter, dirge, and swash.

    Like. 50k vs 10k.
  15. ARCHIVED-Catharz Guest

    Any chance in charm duration being increased to something usable again?
    It used to be possible to use it to solo some content, but since it was nerfed it's been practically useless.
    And troubs need all the help they can get with soloing.
  16. ARCHIVED-justanotherplaya Guest

    Countersong has had its immunity removed. It now lasts for 12 seconds, does not dispel when an ability is used and reduces the targets AE Auto Attack Chance as well as ability damage.
    > Not a bad change. Wish countersong was more useful than a 1-time-deal per mob but I guess if it were any better it could be abused by stacking tons of troubs? :/

    Jester's Cap no longer has an immunity timer.
    > Doesn't seem like it's really going to change what we do with Jcap much anyways. Jcap self. Choose 2 targets, jcap them. Repeat.

    Thunderous Overture now has a 10 second reuse but is a point blank area effect ability that affects up to 8 targets.
    > Not so sure about this one. Tbh I don't use it as often as I should because I run 4 sec weapons and if I'm not careful I delay my autoattack. I guess it's now more useful for ROing on encounters so this is one of those things I'll probably like using when I get used to it.

    Sandra's Deafening Strike now restores some of the power it stole to the troubador.
    > Nice, I particularly like this change.

    Demoralization is now "Abhorrent Verse." Abhorrent Verse transfers 50% of the threat from the Troubador's group to the target for a short time. This does not transfer threat from fighters
    > Also think this is a great change.


    And the rest of the changes are nice and all....but....
    1) I was really hoping to see a revamped myth buff. There's just something about the 15% crit chance buff and minor damage proc that just doesn't sit right with me. If this was the only thing that was changed, I think alot of people would be somewhat satisfied - just make it more useful in the current expac. For me it could be anything, power proc, minor spell double attack proc, group elemental/arcane ward proc, flurry proc, minor group pot, minor group cb, cb blahblahblah or maybe an offensive proc like a debuff. Something cool might be a proc that blocks aoes so that the better troubs can time it with turnstrike and bladedance to maximize dps. :/

    2) Energizing ballad. Is it just me or do I only get to cast this once, maybe twice a fight? I don't think reuse affects it's 3 min cooldown too. It just seems so bad for an endline. Imagine if it were on a 1 min cooldown or maybe 30 seconds? I don't think it'd be overpowered as it's single target and it'd be a much more useful utility that'd be fun to use. It would also make us more wanted in groups if chanters are in short supply.






    Aside from the potential changes, here's my real complaint:
    This might be long winded but I want to get it out. Troubs are fairly balanced as a utility class as is - they lack personal dps but add more to mage group dps and the raid as a whole. Alot of people have mentioned this and I think the real problem is that troubs feel invisible. As an example: the top dps get praised for parses, the top healers get praised for cures and survivability, etcetc. Alot of these classes have ways to standout from the crowd - keeping multiple groups high in power, good and fast ressing, whatever.

    So then how do you tell a good troub from a bad troub? To boost the parse of my mage group all I really do is time my deadly dance and jcap with timewarp and push out some VC's. The rest is just rotating the jcap and dpsing. Sadly on some fights all I get to do is sit back and eat a sandwich while pressing 4 buttons to dps at range because my dps isn't worth how much the mob would heal for if I missed an aoe block and died. It's really not that hard to play the utility role and to be honest no one cares. My mage wants to keep me happy so I can continue to let him parse, but when we progress in hard mode no one thinks "oh thank god for that troub."

    I feel like dirges get by because they can put out good dps while ressing. They also get stuff like sonic barrier and confront fear and some fights are dependent on getting those resses down. If people notice, they also get a psuedo cure and a heal that comes in handy sometimes. Troubs? Less dps than dirges, don't really contribute to survivability aside from arcane/elemental ward/cures. Even when I parse within 5k to a better geared dirge (~130k to 135k), no one cares. If I were playing a dirge I would have parsed more, but in this case, the dirge still outparsed me and that's all they can see. Our single target power flow can't be used much and countersong is a one time use. The sad truth is, when it really comes down to it, people rate how well I play my troub by how much dps I put out personally and less by how well I help my mage. VC, good aoe blocks, and good usage of god spells is all that can make a troub stand out currently. In my opinion, the real solution to this problem is not to make troubs overpowered dpsers or give them a blue aoe or buff their damage or nerf the dirge myth but to give them ways to play to the class so that they are more recognizable for the utility they provide. For starters there's countersong, energizing ballad, and the maintained buffs but none of these really seem to stand out from what I can tell. I do think the hate transfer is a good start but I'm not sure it's enough.







    TLDR: No one cares about the troub except for the mage/scouts that get boosts to their dps and even then it doesn't take a genius to figure out how. Also, no one will ever praise you for your dps given the other players you know are competent. Until we get a unique class-defining tool or our dps skyrockets, I don't feel troubs will ever feel satisfying to play.





    Don't get me wrong. I like the fact that changes are being made but I don't think this update has really touched the root of the problem.
  17. ARCHIVED-Achzizra Guest

    justanotherplaya wrote:
    Just wanted to say, I use 4s weapons as well, but I manage Dancing Blade + Thunderous Overture between two autoattacks without problems and TO is usually my first or second highest dps contributor of my active spells and abilities. It took some readjusting to get to that point, as I thought much like you before, but I found it to be well worth it. Changing TO to a 10s recast PBAoE is a nerf on single target fights. Which the majority of raid named fights tend to be.
    There's no reason why they couldn't change Painful Lamentations into a PBAoE spell instead and leave Thunderous Overture as it is today. Painful Lamentations is already multi-target, so it'd make a lot more sense to change. And PL is a spell that could really use some changes. It's slow cast, slow recast, low damage. This is the spell they should be changing.

    As for your comment about troubs feeling invisible.. I hear ya. Perhaps the change to Tap Essence will help. A boost of the cure chance (how about 15-30% chance to cure an entire group, in addition to the 25% chance of curing a person?) or ward size, or resist numbers of the resist buffs might help a little, so the raid would actually notice a difference between having a troub in raid buffing those resists, and not having one.

    Tl;dr: Thunderous Overture is fine as it is on Live today. Painful Lamentations should be made into a PBAoE instead. Full group cure chance for resist buffs?
  18. ARCHIVED-Rocc Guest

    Jesters Cap and Gravitas should be passive group only AE.
    I hate casting them on both my dirge and troub.
    I hate when people get mad because you gave someone else UT or BC !!!!! I have actually seen people rage about not getting one or the other. It's complete BS that we are put in that position in the first place. Heaven forbid you should want to buff yourself with UT or BC. It would be a 20 minute argument in most guilds/raids.
    I hate getting 10 different tells during a raid asking for Battle Cry, Upbeat Tempo, Jesters Cap and Gravitas. I macro all of jcap and gravitas thru profit and ACT. So it gets spread around to the correct classes during raids. But honest, it's the thing I hate most about playing my bards. With 6 debuffs on each, rezzing, jcap, gravitas, etc, we have substantially less time to join the fight and focus on dps.
    I suggest making them group only to cut down on the amount of useless clicking we have to do in raids and to at least APPEAR that were not showing favoritism to one player over another. Making them group only also ensures a few raid spots for bards.
    Blue AoE's - EVERY class should be able to defend itself in a multi group encounter. Both bards are long overdue for one or two blue AoE's. Dont give it to one and not the other please.
  19. ARCHIVED-justanotherplaya Guest

    Chanzoon@Unrest_old wrote:
    I think ...the class you're looking for is wizard.
    Don't really care if jcap has immunity/not or whether it's passive. I'll just adjust to how it's used.
    UT and BC goes wherever the top dps thinks it should. /ignore whatever other junk dps say. If you're struggling with favoritism, I suggest you join a new guild.
    If bards can't take the time out of their cast order to jcap/gravitas then why should classes like the mystic even bother to stampede if they're healing?
    All in all, I think what you mentioned doesn't really need to be changed. Really, I just want a more class-defining ability that can affect the success of a group/raid and that hate transfer is as close as it has gotten so far.
  20. ARCHIVED-Rocc Guest

    justanotherplaya wrote:
    What are you talking about? Have you ever even played a bard? The problems I mention have probably accounted for more threads of anything bard realted than any other bard topic. Oh and thanks for skuuling me on who gets UT/BC. All of us bards in this forum are now better because you posted.