I look forward to testing all of these changes. I'm sure more could be done, but for now this is a step in the right direction.
I know playing a bard means you're support. That's your role - you chose the class to play, no deal with it... but my primary issue with the WHOLE thing - is every single thing a Dirge casts which is a benefit to his group - is also a direct benefit to himself while 95% of what a Troubador's role is in a functioning raid group - doesnt benefit the Troubador for squat. THAT'S the problem. I agree with previous posts - Make all of our CAs into Spells... give us a WORTHWHILE Mythical buff - etc... make it so playing a troubador who buffs mages - is ACTUALLY BENEFICIAL to the Troubador as well... Why do we have to fall on the sword as a support class while Dirges dont? Balance.
Troubadour Charm as indicated in the previous post does require a much longer duration. 8 minutes like it used to be would be great, or longer (until cancelled). PvP Mez/Charm are a troubadours speciality, yet are both useless in PVP. Mez is cured by any class using abilities or multiple items. Charm in PvP is a mez, which has a 2second cast time and cannot be cast while moving, and lasts less than our normal mez + resists. Pretty useless. not a very powerful solo class, especially when our buffs are for magic-- there isn't much point in being a troub when you can be a dirge in pvp (except on those rare occassions you have a stacked group).
They should leave Thunderous Overture as it is today. Instead make Painful Lamentations a PBAoE spell, shorten its cast time and increase its damage. Leave in the interrupt. The change to Tap Essence.. I like that it's affecting the group, that'll probably make up for the damage nerf against single targets. Countersong should have an increased duration like suggested above, if it's going to retain its 10min recast. 18s or 20s base duration with 5-7min base recast would be better, if it's meant to be used actively, perhaps even a shorter base recast. Cast time should remain instant. Or, if the recast remains at 10 minutes, why not increase the duration to 30-45 seconds? Then it's almost guaranteed to make a difference, while still only being useable once during a raid encounter. In my opinion, it's better with an effect that can be used actively, and makes a difference each time, than a one-off that may or may not make a difference that very moment and after that returns to the oblivion from whence it came. Not sure what to think about the JC immunity being taken out. The immunity means the ability is cycled across more people (4-5 generally, including the troub), while taking out the immunity would make it more likely to be cycled across only 3 (troub included), though it definitely offers a bit more flexibility of use. Why not increase the JC duration a bit instead? Add some spell double-attack to it? As for Breathtaking Bellow - why not a higher-level version?
tfetterman wrote: I have been playing for years, raidng for about 2 years of that, and to this day I am still not sure that any of the WIS, INT, and similar stat debuffs on the mobs really do much good. If they work on mobs the same way that they work on players (??), it seems to be that the actual effects would be pretty close to nothing on raid mobs. Another problem - with all classes that have debuffs - is that instead of a percentage debuff, it is a number. And that number does not seem to scale very well at all with the large power increases in DoV. I would like to know from a developer how the mechanics of such debuffs actually work. In the old system of stats - where for example a WIS debuff would presumably actually reduce the mobs resists, it now apparently would do nothing at all to a mob in that respect. It's only effect would be on a priest mob, where at best it would perhaps reduce the power pool + a slight decrease in heal effectiveness.
Davngr1 wrote: In raids there is a lot of truth to that. In the past, raids in SF and other older zones I could actually see a big difference when Jcap was cast on my mage. Nowadays, with DoV raid gear.. not so much. In fact, if not for the audio trigger set up for when I get Jcap, I probably would not even notice it. It sued to be that people in my Troubs group would fight over getting Jcap - nowadays it is hardly ever mentioned at all since so many are at or close to the (useful) cap. Perhaps what needs to be looked at is what Jcap itself does, not the immunity timers.
I very much like keeping Overture as it is and just changing Painful to be a blue - perhaps with a slight (very slight) damage boost coz it's just so terrible atm. Overture is nice as it is. Reduce CSong reuse and keep original duration imo. Add spell ma somewhere (fort or myth buff), and add something extra to PotM I quite like too, as it's a bit bleh atm. Pot sounds good, but whatever really. JC immunity removal altogether sounds a bit daft, but I guess a good troub will still cycle between several people so it's just giving you the choice rather than the requirement... Spell haste on Allegretto should be there imo (just coz we're mage buffers), but it doesn't matter either way. Ono
A few general comments. First, I appreciate the devs finally taking a look at troubs - if these tweaks actually end up being effective I may actually get back into raiding with my troub. However... Countersong will still remain essentially useless with the super long recast timer. Right now I can't even recall the last time I ever used it. Some spells/CA's do not affect epic mobs - how about giving us something that DOES affect epics? The Jcap immunity removal may help some, but the fact is in raids most people are at or near their caps anyway, and Jcap simply does not do much in DoV. Not sure how useful the PB AoE will be - OK for soloing I guess, but overall I just don't see it doing much for troubs in groups or raids. As others have mentioned - dirge buffs also help the dirge - troub buffs, eh.. not so much.
Also - is there something in the works for our class specific gear sets? Last I noticed - most of it doesnt address any of our spell casting time, reuse, dmg, etc... wazzup with that?
inzewood wrote: I am hoping troubie gets a huge boost, because that will give me an option to betray now that they nerfed dirge mythical into oblivion on test...
Yeah, I'm very happy that they are working on troubs, but they totally screwed the pooch on the dirge nerf. I'm really getting sick of this game.
tfetterman wrote: tfetterman wrote: Yet you have nothing constructive to say about the dirge mythical and what could be done to balance it but you did proclaim that it was OP.
Errror wrote: Your post humors me. The basic fact that troubs are scouts overrides any of your logic. The dirge proc will cause more dps on a troub than any of the ideas they would come with here. However, since they are nerfing that proc, I can see that the best we are going to get are the changes they gave us.
Dirge change is kinda of ridiculous - Instead of properly buffing you guys to bring you more in line with us. They went the greater evil route to nerf our myth and buff you guys anyways. Im sure somewhere some desk jockey dev is doing fail math on how your changes and our nerf will closer together parse wise. However without testing it things are still up in the air, but this does not bode well.
Lempo@Everfrost wrote: That's funny how you take all of that our of context. If you actually read all of the other posts I have out there, you would know what I thought would change it.
As a Tank I was hoping they would address the lack of Tank utility that Troubs give compared to Dirges. In the current raid game mechanics it is a lot harder to tank from a Troub group versus a Dirge group. Dirges offer not only DPS buffs for melee type, but they also offer much greater survivability and hate to a Tank. Fighters are constantly requesting encounters that require more than 2 Fighters to tank...and with the lack of buffing to a Tank that means more Dirge group set ups. It would be nice if Troubs could offer more survivability and better hate management for a Fighter in their group based on active game play.
Dirges buff themselves, yes. Troubs buff their group infinitely more than dirges do, imo. You guys spend too much time directly comparing troub personal dps vs dirge personal dps. In short these changes will make troubs a lot better than dirges for raids, but I know you guys won't complain. You obviously couldn't handle being pretty balanced to dirges (boo hoo you did 40-50k less dps than dirges but made up for it by buffing other people with more than 40-50k worth of buffs), and need to be the best at personal dps, best at buffing, and best at debuffing.
