Wurm wrote: We're all pretty close I think. Two HM pieces, most of the EM pieces, most of the EM jewelery, new DoV weapons/bows. For the most part.
Raahl wrote: Yes, your comments are BS. Gaige came here and refenced DPS and you thanked him and yet you didn't like the numbers provided above which show EXACTLLY what Gaige said they see in their raid. Gaige said he'd provide the numebrs from their next raid to demonstrate the DPS disparity and again you thanked him? Yes, I 100% dispute that the disparity is the number of swings. DPS is DPS. The dirge could be using 4 second weapons and the Troubador could be using 6 second weapons. I don't know and that is why the term.... DPS .... is used. The only thing I would agree with is if you had an expanded parse of both of the classe and removed 3rd party procing dps from the mix. After that your own abilities and gear is all that matters and that is.. once again.. DPS. I do agree that the parses of the dirge and troubador in the same fight at the same time will be very telling and I look forward to Gaiges post. I don't expect it to be any different than what has already been shown but it will provide a bigger and more accurate information base. Finally, I'm here becasue I can't stand hypocrisy and probably more so becasue I can't stand to pass up a good fight.
Wasuna wrote: Gaige pointed out that there is a DPS disparity. I have not argued that there isn't a disparity, just that you are barking up the wrong tree when you try and blame it on the mythical buff. Sure changing the Troubadors myth buff could go a long way to solving some of the disparity. Wasuna wrote: Show me different in the supplied parses where the disparity lies. The parses show a serious disparity in the number of swings between the two bard classes. Finding a way to bring the troubadors swing count up would bring them 90% of the way towards removing the disparity and bringing DPS up to that of the Dirges. Wasuna wrote: Finally we can agree, I too believe these parses would be very telling. I too don't expect to see anything different. The Dirge will parse more because they swing more.
Yeah because nerfing things because of what happens in raiding makes most of your customers happy... Fix the Troubs and leave the Dirges the hell alone.
iwillbackhand wrote: That is pretty weak. Do you think changing the 15% Crit Chance to 15% Crit Bonus would help any? In that parse the Troubador was Crit'ing pretty much 100% of the time. Though I have no problem making it similar to the Dirge one. Maybe Maximum spell damage for the duration?
Raahl wrote: The swing disparty is very close to what you would expect from a 4 second and 6 second weapon disparity. If you can see that then look at the max, min and average hit and you will see the exact impact of the dirge mythical buff as compared to the troubador one. The dirge average hit is 10% harder than the Troubador even though the Troubador is using slower, harder hitting weapons. Also, the parses you pulled up form somewhere show a Troubador that is using a huge god ability to increase their VC and that has more group provided procs than the dirge parse shows so the actual individual DPS is even further skewed than you show. Those parses are from some unknown place and it doesn't even look like a reasonable comparision. The Troubadors raid killed that named 20% faster so I assume they had a significant gear advanatge while doing less DPS. In the end I could care less where DPS is coming from. The two bards should be similar. I actually think the Troubador provides a bigger dps increase for their mage group than a dirge does for a melee group (but that is my opinion) so I wouldn't have an issue with a slight disparity but the reported 1.5-2 times is not acceptable. Once people get their reuse back up again the effective gap will widen again since UT and J-Cap will be less effective.
Wasuna wrote: Both have a pretty high DPS value for VC. At one point in time the Dirge in that parse was dual wielding 6s delay weapons. I think he may have gone back to 4s though. As far as which provides more to their group, it's tough to say because a lot of the buffs are for stats like MA/CC/ETC. Not as easily measured.
This is all pretty terrible and heavily biased information. IIRC, Buffrat and his group buff many things around his own personal dps. Many of his parses he'll buff himself with BC, rather than grant it to a DPS Scout. I can count, pretty much never that a Troub has that luxury in a guild that I've been in, on a raid. So to see that he does great dps, for a bard, really isn't a surprise at all. Trying to balance an entire class around one guilds' bard that specs for pure dps, and generally gets buffed for pure dps is probably highly unwise. Buffrat is a really good dps'er in his own right, and quite honestly, putting him on a Troub he would probably do pretty good numbers there as well. Do the Troubs sit in Buffrat's group? Or are they in a Mage group? I'm not suggesting that troubs do as much dps as Dirges, though...I suspect its not as far off as you people make it seem. While I'm sure that Dirges do more dps than Troubs this xpac, anyway you slice it, you should probably know that during TSO and all the way through most of Sent Fate (I quit in November), I outdid all of our Dirges in my guilds' dps on a fairly regular basis. In fact, I'm quite certain I did more dps than any bard on AB during that time as well, as a Troub. I would say that in 95% of raid situations, Dirges do about the same amount of RW dps on a percentage basis as they always did. So for the 600th time, I think what needs to happen is that the Troub myth needs to be revisited. Regarding making the Troubador more fun to play, I don't think its just the dps as the issue. I believe the root, CORE issue is the dps *and* the lack of active abilities that they have. Its just a very dry class to play. It also doesn't help that most all Scout items are geared for Melee dps'ers and difficult to find things that actually really benefit a Troub.
Celuin wrote: Agreed Troubadors need some love. I understand that Buffrat is jigged out all to heck and back. I'm hoping that the Troubador is similarly jigged out. This is part of the reason why I'd like to see their stats too.
Heh, I forgot to mention.... Ability mod certainly benefits troubs far more than dirges, due to the reliance for a dirge on auto attack versus spells and CAs as a troubador. I don't know that most troubadors have really gotten to have 2500 Ability mod yet, which does nothing aside from damage their dps.
Not sure if Gaige forgot to post the parses or not but I don't see any. I'll go ahead and assume a conspiracy theory that certin people did not one said parses provided or shown. SoE has a long track record of not noticing things until players prove it to them and then dropping the hammer. Nobody wants a hammer dropped but many would like some actuvity to balance things.
Wasuna wrote: Assume all you want. I suspect Gaige was busy having fun to even consider posting. Personally I believe this issue lies with the Troubador's DPS being dependant on Melee damage too much. And because they typically get put into a caster group, never get the nicer melee group buffs. What's the solution to this? I guess they could either increase their spell based damage to make up for the melee deficit or change their myth buff to bring up their melee DPS more. What do the active Troubadors want? Do you want to be more spell based DPS or Melee?
This thread died as soon as it was put in this forum. Let's talk about something else like tradeskilling or having multiple houses. Maybe it will get moved to a more active area.
Raahl wrote: That's the beauty of all the people being 'in the know' all the sudden not talking anymore. I can assume away and nobody that knows for sure will say a thing. If they do, then there is the potentional for one fo the top 5 parses in their raid to be adjusted in some way. As for an earlier comment about Gaiges dirge friend being buffed for DPS, only the people capable of generating that DPS get buffed for it. Gaiges raid force is not stupid and they notice potentional and jumped on it.
The Troub Myth Buff Needs to be changed - to remain competitive. simple suggestions. instead of procing 15 crit - proc 15 spell DA. we are mainly casters, with about 1/3rd our stuff being melee based, aside from auto attacks. one way to differentiate the troub from dirge, without having to nerf dirges - make troubs more AE damage based. dirges are already pretty ridiculously OP with thier mythical buff, being so unchecked... so why not let them be better at single target damage, and troubs better at AE damage? troubs need help for sure - but I'd rather see troubs differentiated from dirges, instead of just trying to match them. as different as a brig is from a swash, or guardian from berserker.
Kunaak wrote: Didnt you notice this died out three days ago, plus giving multiple housing to characters and that kind of fluff is much more important than fixing troubs. Noets
