TLE Tank Disparity

Discussion in 'General TLE Discussion' started by Lovidicus, Jan 29, 2021.

  1. Lovidicus Active Member

    Recently I dove into researching the class population disparity on the TLE server. You can check that post out if interested. One thing that drew my attention were the tanks. For each 1 bruiser there are 5 shadow knights. It's easy to just assume that SK is stronger and that's why. Personally, I don't care for assumptions and would rather know the math that leads to them. With that in mind, I decided to dive a bit deeper into it and get some numbers behind the data.

    There are two types of numbers people are interested in when it comes to a tank class. One is how well they tank, the other is how much damage they get while doing it. (In EQ2 another number would be their healing capability, but I didn't research that number at all.)

    Getting numbers on "tanking" is very difficult without having access to each class at max (TLE) level. Even with that, getting numbers on tanking is hard since there are a lot of variables involved. More than I could count. However, getting numbers on damage is actually quite easy - so that's what I did. I didn't have the time (nor interest) in pulling numbers for every tank. It's time consuming. So instead I did bruiser, shadow knight, and one of the middle population tanks, berserker.

    Here's how I found their damage breaks down across various target counts:
    [IMG]

    Both SK and zerker scale well with multiple targets but you can see the bruiser is left behind right away. You can also see that both zerker and bruiser start with a disadvantage on a single target. Even at 3 targets the SK is just about doubling the bruiser's output.

    Important Notes:
    • My math doesn't take into account AA damage or auto attacks.
    • A huge amount of dps comes from auto attacks, so we're still missing a big piece of the picture
    • This doesn't necessarily represent a real-world application as these numbers only represent what each class can do based on the limitations of their skills (cast time, recovery time, reuse time and damage maximums)
    • These numbers imply that the classes are reusing all skills immediately and that they don't stop doing so. It doesn't take into consideration front loading damage on targets that won't live through a whole rotation
    • In other words THIS MATH IS FLAWED. I know it and am stating it myself.

    So knowing all the limitations of the above math and the important variables that are too complex for me to synthesis, what can we learn?

    The take away here is that, out of the gate, without any other factors the tank classes are not well balanced in terms of damage output capacity across multiple targets.

    Yes, you could have told me that without looking at the numbers. But I've looked at the numbers and can confirm that you're right. It's not because SK's are better at pressing buttons, it's because their buttons are better to be pressed. This is NOT at all a call for nerfs. I don't even know if SK really out performs as much as these numbers indicate.

    So then what is the point of this post? I simply wanted to find out if there was some numerical difference between the most played tank and the least played class. I spent a bit of time on it and thought I'd share my results in the hope that the dev team would look into this further.

    I make no suggestions on how to fix any of the disparity between class populations or between the tanks referenced here. And it is my honest hope that this post does not become a place to discuss class balance. I don't believe it's of any benefit for us to debate here on the forums. But I do hope the devs consider this stuff so that the next TLE server can have a healthier population mix.
    Medro likes this.
  2. Kalika Well-Known Member

    Comparing dps is just wrong and indeed almost irrelevant, in raids tanks have different roles. Crusaders are designed to pick up massive amount of adds that do not hit too hard -- hence divine aura and aoe --. Guardians are designed to tank the hardest bosses they can take big hit and have temp to survive killing blows. Avoidance tanks are more like the ones who pick back the big boss when the MT is down or if the MT run out of temporary protections. They can also be MT and are quite good at that too.

    Sk are very are not very good MT and paladins are way better (mostly due to their mythical).

    Both avoidance tank have a recast on FD of a few seconds, for sk it s around 120 seconds.

    Being able to flip flop is a massive advantage when soloing or running heroic content.

    Tanks dps is not really of any relevance, unless you want to solo heroic content -- crusaders are good at that but necros too and probably others -- what temporary defense you have , your avoidance and mitigation , your max hp are what matter.

    Of course monk/bruiser are painful against multiple encounters but we do get multiple encounters only because the content is absolutely trivial.

    Last woe pick up i did a guardian was tanking, we got a very fast run with only flaswless despite some of the dps being quite low (ungeared toons). Tanks was a the bottom of the parse just above the templar but his life never even moved. Also since he brought massive HP to the raid nobody ever even went into the low yellow.

    Side note : of course SK are probably the best for easy mode heroic content, they can break stun/fear/stiffle (lie paladins) but alo bring immunity (amd huge dps boost) to the group with deathmarch and they do have two nice temp (SK furor , Hateful despite) and divine aura (which is useless for raid bosses since they probably hit for more than half the SK hps).

    But they have a crappy mythical while paladins get an awesome one.

    I did hunter rushes faster with a flpiflaper than with any sk, just because they can FD almost at will.

    Last remark : even for dps classes simply comparing dps is probably not enough, even if for those classes it is quite relevant.

    Do not expect any adjustment, necros currently do bring massive dps and massive utility, they are fully broken but nobody cares ;-)
  3. Lovidicus Active Member

    Thanks for the thoughtful reply. It's nice to be reminded that there are a lot of things outside just damage that play into a classes over-all power. I knew talking about DPS on a class who's main focus is tanking may bring condemnation - but you simply provided much needed information on the topic.

    SK's may be "all powerful" in specific content, but that doesn't make them the masters of the universe. Seems like that's reserved for the necro =P

    I don't really expect changes to happen either. But I saw a big difference between some of these classes population and figured I'd look at the greatest disparity and try to learn more and maybe share some insight myself.

    Anyway, thanks again!
    Kalika likes this.
  4. Kalika Well-Known Member

    There a lot of SK because many people have one as an alt for heroic, but in raids they are not the first choice. People having guardians or templar as main are usually raid focused and so you get a lesser population.

    Of course tanks are not exactly balanced but all are quite functionnal.

    The only class which is fully broken is the necro one, i don't know if I want some adjustment since i have lot of fun with my broken necro.

    I also think that enchanters need a dps boost, they were doing well due to their native casting speed with perpetuity (indeed at 50 they were top parsers) but with everyone at 100% Casting speed and around 100 reuse they don't really do enough. Still any group want some for the buffs, but it s frustrating to play one.