[TLE] My guardian feels incredibly squishy

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by mkaito, Aug 16, 2015.

  1. mkaito New Member

    I took my guardian into a dungeon for the first time last night. Level 12, with level 10 handcrafted gear, all my abilities were journeyman or adept... and I got compltely owned in Blackburrow. Both of my healers were constantly OOM, and if I pulled even just one extra mob, I kissed the ground almost immediately. Things did not get better by the time I was 18.

    Of course, handcrafted gear isn't exactly the best there is; I know that. But it should not feel like I'm wearing wet toilet paper either, right?

    I understand that there is some sort of mitigation debuff on this server, but I feel that this is kind of excessive.

    My guardian should definitely not make my healers go all out on a single blue triple-up heroic. That's just... wrong.

    Perhaps some of the people that were with me last night read this and want to chime in. My guardian's name is Sain.
  2. MrDaltin Member

    Think they will get better later on but never as good as an sk/pal in normal dungeons.

    Arent Guardians here like warriors in eq1?

    Raid tanks.
  3. mkaito New Member

    I never played EQ1 myself, but they should be somewhat equivalent, yes. Guardians are raid tanks indeed. Big mitigation, single target focus, lots of debuffs and self buffs to live longer and protect the group. They struggle with multiple unlinked mobs, and can not contribute much to the group damage output, but when it comes to surviving, especially big hits, guardians ought to be second to none. At least, that's the idea.

    Just so we are on the same page about tanks:

    When we speak about "dungeon focus" and how it relates to tanking, we're mostly talking about reliably tanking multiple mobs and contributing non-trivial damage so things go faster, even if it means losing a little survivability for it.

    Then, raid tanks are usually built to tank really nasty single mobs that dish out insane amounts of damage. These tanks don't deal much damage themselves, but instead have tools to even out damage spikes and consistently lower incoming damage.

    I went into a guardian fully aware of this. I'm completely fine working harder to hold multiple mobs, and not even showing up on the damage parse, if that means I can bring one healer instead of two, or even let the healer dish out some damage and debuffs. What I did not expect was to also be a sheet of wet paper.

    I had absolutely no trouble managing mobs, even multiple mobs, assuming I didn't leeroy into the middle of a room. I had trouble staying alive. With two healers. I don't think that's cool.
  4. Zeozx New Member

    Something doesn't sound right here guards are not paper now the handcrafted her is awful, but should suffice... What kind of healers did you have? It could be bad healers not you... Most healers low level burn mana on cures and over healing. A lot of wardens starting are not use to hots and stack them incorrectly and continual spam them. Most defiler a don't know how to see what amount of ward is left and only over do refreshing them. Inquis are reactive so they can be weak against spell mobs that don't do melee... There are several things to look at here
  5. mkaito New Member

    Indeed, those are factors to keep in mind.

    Just for another point of data, I got a donation from someone on the server, and got myself a set of T2 mastercrafted armour, then went to Stormhold. When I arrived, I was 18, and some of the mobs were orange/red. As expected, those squished me like a bug. The 22 swashbuckler we had along tanked most things in my stead. I made it to 20, and still had a lot of trouble staying alive against white/yellow mobs. The swashbuckler had the same amount of mitigation (46%), but where I had 5% avoidance, he had 40%.

    Healer was a single warden. Had no trouble keeping the swash alive against multiple mobs (several triple-ups 1-2 levels above us), but when I tanked them, I just bit the dust.

    Something is definitely wrong here.

    And yes, I plan to do another test once I can afford a set of T3 mastercrafted.
  6. Ilovecows Active Member

    I have a level 28 guardian and I have had different experiences than some of the other people in this group. It was certainly far easier to tank prior to the mitigation nerd that was added fairly easily, but this kind of just means I can't pull full rooms of 20+ mobs and be fine with a solo healer. In BB I was literally pulling this many mobs easily and only died once or twice in the whole zone. The solo healer was just fine. My damage was also not trivial. In BB I was parsing easily over 100 most of the time and was often the top in my group (with mostly app spells).

    It did get harder after the MIT nerf. Later in CoV (I had leveled up to 26 by this MIT nerf) I could pull around 6-8 mobs with a single fury healing me just fine. Anymore than that though and my healer couldn't keep up with me; I would die then they would die. So I did have to be careful, but we were clearing the zone with an extra 15min left to spare before we could reset it. Again, my DPS wasn't trivial as I was parsing around 150is most of the time and was usually 2nd or 3rd on dps.

    Now that I am well geared and with mostly masters/experts, I'm parsing over 300 on solo mobs (my best was 399 although in a 7sec fight) at level 28 and in groups during minute long fights I can parse around 250 or so, rarely hitting 300 dps.

    The MIT nerf definitely hit us harder than other tanks since we rely entirely on our MIT while brawlers rely on avoidance and crusaders rely more on their heals. It has also affected my ability to solo. I can't even take 3 linked heroic white mobs without calling a guildie to come save me. My MIT with Temps gets around 50% and my avoidance is around 35%. Level up a bit and thinks will be easier once you start getting all the powerful level 20 gear and your healers won't be burning through their mana so quickly. Things are definitely harder and it has hurt us more than the other tanks, but running zones and playing as a guardian is still possible, in my experience at least.

    I can't say how it is at max level since I am locking my guard at 28 for pvp, but get up to t3, get the nice quest/FG gear, windstalker shield, etc before you make any final decisions on the guard. Things will get easier.
  7. Estred Well-Known Member

    Mine was. For 5ish years too. I remember feeling squishy while I leveled unless I was over-geared. I really can't say though fully as my leveling experiences were in the RoK Expansion.
  8. mkaito New Member

    I went back to SH with a guild group, still in T2 MC armor and crappy T1 jewelry. A level 22 inquisitor had no issues keeping me alive whatsoever against even the really messy pulls (I keep forgetting about social aggro after tanking in other games).

    Turns out, the mit nerf was bad, but bad healers are still worse.

    I have acquired a set of T3 MC armor and will do another run of SH, and see how that goes. But this time, I'll make sure the healer isn't watching youtube.
  9. Dedith Well-Known Member

    You're going to want to min/max the defensive stats as much as possible. I'm a zerker on TLE, but I play a guard on the normal servers. I noticed right away that mitigation is really low. On normal servers, we're able to get mitigation up to 60+% reduction vs same level mobs fairly easily. On TLE, I'm having problems getting up to 50%. Those yellows and oranges are going to reduce that damage reduction further, and can in fact make you take more damage if your mitigation is low enough.
    1. So, when looking at tanking gear upgrades, first and foremost, make sure the armor pieces are plate and compare the mitigation value as a critical stat. You may come across leather or chain that looks nice due to strength or dmg stats, but it will hurt your tanking.
    2. Do not use two-handed weapons or dual wield while tanking, especially when mitigation and avoidance are so debuffed. You will need that avoidance from wielding a shield. The protection value of a shield is a direct translation to uncontested block. You will want a shield as close to your level as possible with the highest protection value. The blue stat Block Chance is just a multiplier to your base uncontested block value, so the higher the base value from a good shield, the more useful the Block Chance stat is.
    3. If you can find any item with skill bonuses to defense or parry, then consider them as well, as they help your defenses within the contested checks to see if a mob hits you. We can usually get these from adornments, but they are not available on TLE servers yet.
    4. The blue stats, if available, of Extra Parry, Extra Dodge, and Extra Riposte add to uncontested avoidance. Though I'm unsure if they are available this low level or even enabled on the TLE server.
  10. Creasote Well-Known Member

    Guardians are simply at a disadvantage until they correct mitigation. They don't get a stoneskin buff until level 50 it appears.

    Berserkers get their temp heals at level 20.

    Crusaders get heals early on.

    Brawlers get avoidance.

    Now guardians get more temps and buffs to protect group members but without stoneskins, heals and avoidance they have to rely solely on their healers.
  11. Season Active Member

    I tank everything just fine from basically level 25. Plus once DoF hits we get our good stuff.
  12. Seefar Well-Known Member

    Interesting thread. I remember some years back -- of course it must have have been a dream -- a solo guardian in Antonica romping confidently through heroic gnolls one day, and then having the wet tissue paper feeling the next, and I wonder: is this the same problem, or just a recurring nightmare?
  13. mkaito New Member

    Further testing so far: I absolutely need the latest mastercrafted armor I can wear AND a healer that's actually good at playing his class. Any less and I will die really fast.

    I'm not sure what happened to the purported mitigation nerf on the TLE, but for a Guardian, who's basically mitigation on legs, I still think it feels excessive.
  14. Yarilo New Member

    I will list some things that seem trivial but have to be said:
    1. Make sure you are in defensive stance when tanking
    2. Use a good shield (usually tower shields are the best at these levels)
    3. If tanking multiple mobs try to keep them all in front of you since they have a much better chance of hitting you from the back
    4. Don't pull multiple mobs unless they are linked or if you do make sure they are your level or below
    5. You have couple of short duration stuns/knock backs - use them when your HP gets low to allow healer to catch up
    6. Armor mitigation numbers depend on levels. It's silly but a level 10 helm with 100 mitigation is much worse than level 18 helm with 100 mitigation even though the number is the same. If you study each piece it will actually tell you how much damage it absorbs at your level
  15. mkaito New Member

    1. Yes. Adept stance, too, just in case. Expert doesn't seem like much of an upgrade, and masters are prohibitively expensive.
    2. MC Tower Shield. I can't seem to find a better one for my level.
    3. As far as possible, yes.
    4. Very carefully pulling single encounters.
    5. Using them, along with my defence cooldowns when necessary.
    6. Using highest level gear I can get my hands on.

    7. I "tanked" a dungeon on my swashbuckler today, in ****** quested gear. Not only did I hold aggro just fine, but I was also apparently really easy to keep alive, according to the healer.
  16. Krups Member

    Tanking isn't a solo endeavor. Group makeup has a lot to do with the damage you take, and the skill of the healer has a lot to do with how many heart attacks you have. That being said, I rarely have problems tanking on my berserker while dual wielding.