TLE Masters vs Adept 3s

masters don't need to be bumped up. if you don't want the extra 3-4%, you don't have to farm them. on the pvp side of TLE, you don't really want to be out in the wild too long without ad3's (experts) while you're farming masters cause 3-4% might get you a win, but 9-10% would just be asking for people to quit as you couldn't compete without masters and there's already tons of people farming them.

You really don't want there to be a larger gap in "obtainable power" and "power obtained through RNG".

I find it very amusing and somewhat aggravating that the community flip-flops on this topic. We want super amazing ethereals/ancients, WHY ARE THEY SO STRONG OMG IT ISN'T SKILL ANYMORE NERF. Oh masters aren't dealing enough damage, buff them!

???

Expert spells are made by a "rare" harvest, a rare harvest is based on RNG is it not? Alltho experts are easier to obtain on TLE then adepts. IMO the difference between expert spell and master spell should be as big as the difference between adept and expert. Ethereals is an unjust comparison in this case because masters are dropping a lot in the older zones and like 80% of em are vendor trash, wich is sad

Instead of buffing masters they should rather nerf experts

Sure, but we both agree that they are "obtainable".

It is assumed that players can obtain a set of experts.
The same cannot be said for masters (on TLE) or grandmasters (on live).

Yes experts are very quick and easy to obtain. Too easy for its strenght IMO.
I Think masters are also very easy to obtain especially from lvl 30 and up. Basically all nameds in dungeons/instances are do able and if not even easy in a good duo and if u happen to be a summoner all of em are easy to solo. I played a Conju on SH to 44 before i decided to move over to deathtoll, and the only nameds that ive tried to solo and died has been epics because i cannot root em and re-summon pet.

So i do think that masters are easy enough to obtain.

Today on my wiz i was about to upgrade a spell to expert, i checked price on rare wich was 5 gold (ish), then master and it was 7 gold for the master. Masters are'nt Selling unless its a key spell or a pet because they are'nt worth the xtra few gold, and that sucks! =(

I think grandmasters are easy to obtain, yet the majority of players aren't fully grandmastered. This isn't particularly important.

What is important is that the power level gap between players is relatively small.
A 5% difference is sufficiently small, it certainly matters, but it isn't enough to create a discrepancy between most players.

This was changed a few expansions ago because a master from previous tier would be BETTER than an expert from the next tier, which was causing people to not upgrade spells until they could get a master.

I realize this does not really matter on the TLE yet, but it still shouldn't be changed. Masters are an upgrade if you don't want to pay for them then just stick with Expert.

Also the drop rate is extremely high in some zones, I think OOLS master drop rates need to be fixed

just for giggles, here's the warden masters lvl 1-12 on the Deathtoll broker this morning

1 dawnstrike - 2@6g - replaced at lvl 9
10 thorncoat II - 24g, 30g, 2@60g
10 nature's embrace II - 3@1p - yes 1 plat
11 icefall II - 2@12g, 36g
12 photoshynthesis - 1p

I wonder how many in this thread have looked at the difference in the quality. Or how many that have strong opinions that have? I just picked a random spell my illy uses that has direct damage, the highest level on TLE:



Journeyman: 254dmg, 25% harder to resist than apprentice
Adept: 277, 25% (+9% to journeyman, 0% to journeyman)
Expert: 356, 29% (+40% to journeyman, +4% to journeyman)
Master: 370, 33% (+45% to journeyman, +7% to journeyman)
Grandmaster: 388, 35% (+52% to journeyman, +9% to journeyman)

In sum, there's a huge leap from Adept to Expert (common drop to rare craft) and then there are very small increases in Master and Grandmaster upgrades. This is what we should want. I think it is profoundly jacked up there are a select few min/max'rs that are trying to push a bigger edge they can acquire by farming nonstop. Farming kills the game. So pushing the mentality that Master/Grandmaster quality is a requirement for groups or raids (meaning, more farming or feeding the farmers) is detrimental. And if you beef up the Master or Grandmaster quality that is exactly what you will do.

If you couple the small advantages high end spell quality with best in slot gear you see a significant difference in potential for that player and it requires no skill, this is the "% passive uberness". That % is crazy at end game @ 100 and I DO NOT want that % to be as easily attainable and as high on TLE servers. Want to be the WW best on live? Have moderate skill at your class, buy the rest off the broker or in auction. On TLE? Have great skill, invest a moderate amount of time into your spells and gear. So, NO THANK YOU!!! Leave as is.

There is one important fact to consider here. When the Masters were lowered a bit in numbers, and Grandmasters / Ancients were introduced back then on live - those small number differences still made a HUGE difference with Critical Chance + Critical Bonus, Potency and Ability Mod, so those Master nerfs still weren't really a problem.
They are now here on TLE because we DO NOT have all those stats available (eventhough we might have had them in normal game back in vanilla), since they have been disabled here - we only have the raw damage of the spells + the very small damage boost from the main stat. Therefore, the (I agree) really small differences between Expert and Master tiers of the spells are a bit of a problem here, making those Master spells not as much a desireable upgrade as they were once.

Now, I do realise that changing the Masters here would probably change them on Live as well. Considering this, and considering the Grandmaster tiers of spells are only a barely significant difference to Masters as well, maybe boosting the numbers of Masters AND Grandmasters (those which you can appoint to in Character Traits) would make both more desireable to have here on TLE and solve this problem.

So, the biggest argument I'm seeing in this thread for those who are proponents of increasing the spread between masters and experts is that....masters aren't selling for enough gold/plat on TLE. In other words, "I farm masters and my sales aren't as good as I think they should be therefore we should nerf every scholar class in the game or find some other way to make me earn more plat. kthxbai." In terms of game mechanics there is no reason to do a single thing with the way masters and experts are right now. They have ALWAYS had a fairly marginal difference. It's important to remember that the higher tier spells suffer fewer resists as well. With zero casting and reuse speed buffs right now it's pretty darn important that your spells actually land the first time.

lol sr. you see only argument about sell ? i want have all m1 and be stronger more than 2% compared some one with a3 only.

To paraphrase the dev team when asked about the small jumps.

" The game is designed around experts, anything about that is for completionists that want an extra edge. While the gap looks small the gain from potency and ability modifier is higher"

... But why? Having them so close together in power keeps the professions relevant and even beyond the tradeskill benefit, it makes it easier for *everyone* to achieve what is more or less the best level of a particular skill. The only thing I'm reading is that you want there to be a higher skill, which only you can achieve so you can feel like a lord while the "plebs" only have their A3 books. That's a weird motive.

let me guess you from PVE ?

MB you want game with 3 buttons 1) DPS 2) Heal 3) Aggro. This will make game easier for everyone.

Ok check

Why we raiding ? For have best gear and be more stronger in pvp. Same with m1.

Nagafen already death. Next Deathtoll. We dont have any balance (SK immortal and he can kill everyone with one macro. All what sk need - press 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 and this not will change in DoF or RoK) .We dont have m1. PvP mirror classes - random. (because almost all characters with identical classes have same dmg(gear or m1 can not make one of fighter more than 5% stronger,need patch or pvp eq2 RIP.)

Yes working for something and get stronger is a weird motive. App1 should be almost equal to Master to make sure that everyone, despite their dedication and grinding is equally strong. Lets make all other gear then tradeskilled gear "appearance only" too!

The increase in spell dmg gained from INT is crap. The increase in spell dmg gained from upgrading it to Master is crap. The increase in dps gained from stacking scout/fighter jewelry and weapon on a wizard with DPS mod on em instead of casting skills and intelligence is much higher then anything you can do with your spells right now. This sounds like fun to you? Scouts and fighters have their blue stats, we casters have basically nothing to look for, not even masters are cool!

I'm reading a lot of posts that sound analogous to nothing more than a desire for power creep and the dominating of one's fellow man. Sigmund Freud, get in here, you were right.

That said, I'll entertain your argument. So you want Masters to be ultra strong. So we make Masters super strong, hypothetically. Is steamrolling a dungeon for nameds (and thus Master-level books) really any more difficult or prestigious than having just crafted a book with a rare mat? Frankly neither seem particularly difficult. Did we make the having of power more prestigious or put power more in the hands of the deserving?

With respect, Feldon, I think you've missed the thrust of my (totally off-topic) point, which is that adept IIs (not apprentice) were never availabubble.

i'm mastered out for my level on TLE and now smartloot is just giving me random masters. i realize they're not much better than experts but for someone who has to buy a rare and pay a sage, they may as well buy a master so i'm putting the ones i don't need on the broker for a little less than the price of rares.

why have full experts when you can be mastered out for the same price?