TLE and Predators

Discussion in 'Beta Class Discussion' started by KaladimNate, May 12, 2022.

  1. KaladimNate Member

    One of the biggest reasons that we see multiple Mage groups brought into group content is that each of the Mages has ways to increase the dps of their allies. This means that synergistically they are significantly stronger as a singular Group than they are individually. Sorcerers get Curse of Darkness / Ice Lash, Summoners get Teamwork (with AAs) and Blade of Ro, and Enchanters aside from being mana powerhouses bring things like Synergism. I think that if we ever want to see a world where we would realistically *want* to bring a Scout group (instead of just doing it because we want our players to be able to play what they enjoy playing), Predators need to bring some group utility.

    A simple suggestion that I have would be to have the level 35 skill shared by Predators, Honed Reflexes, be reduced in duration and cooldown (say 20-25 duration, 3 min cd) but make it group-wide would do a lot to make the idea of a Scout group more interesting or desirable. If not this, some other changes could be made. Some examples:

    Assassin

    Impale decreases the enemy's Trauma (or purely physical) mitigation while active.

    Apply Poison is now group-wide and can affect everyone but the caster (but cannot stack).

    Ranger

    Makeshift Arrows is now group-wide, has a short duration, and can apply to all Combat Hits.

    Have the group portion of Focus Aim last for 15-20 seconds, potentially let it be the only source of "accuracy" available on the TLE.

    I'm mostly brainstorming things that we're likely to see on the TLE. There's some argument that maybe changing the Bounty starting AA to be some kind of group buff would make Predators more interesting too, but I'm trying to avoid thinking about things that would have a dramatic impact on live, as those changes are simply unlikely to be made. Does anyone else have any suggestions or opinions?
    Zenji likes this.
  2. Nata Member

    I think I posted elsewhere on this, the itemization changes will take mages down some and we wont be able to buff enough mages for double mage groups.

    I'm all for pred's giving more to a group in conjunction with that, but I'd like to see more testing at max level on whether or not they really need an increase with the current item schema.
  3. KaladimNate Member

    I don't believe that the reduction to cast speed is going to be significant enough that it's going to make predators strong enough to run a scout group over the full synergy that a full mage group brings to each other. T5 and T6 already have really poor cast speed itemization and you still run the mage group then if you want to have the "best" raid comp. Ice Lash + CoD + Fae Fire + Prismatic Chaos / FoB stacked on all the casters simultaneously grants so much burst and raidwide that scout groups just cannot compete. If you aren't running the wizard, just having the summoner + pet and illy + pet creates so many targets, plus really great targets for things like Ro's Blade, Grasp of Bertoxx, etc., for these buffs that Scout classes cannot compete.

    To make it so that you aren't running two mage groups, you need to make Scouts just as synergistic with each other as Mages are, or else completely sink Mages. Otherwise, you just do what people normally do and just stick the couple of Rogues you're bringing in the MT and OT group.
  4. Unrivaled New Member

    Scout's are designed to go into tank groups as the last slot.

    Most guilds only run two full tank groups, and raiding without a swash and a brigand is extremely hindering. Even if predators parsed 50% more than rogues did - i'd still take the two rogues over a predator of either flavor.

    I can't imagine scout groups will ever outparse a mage group, nor will they ever have the same survivability a solo healing fury offers - considering mages also offer group protective things to facilitate single healing, that scouts do not offer; and offer buffage to each other scouts do not.

    Not to mention raiding without at least one mage group for the debuffs mages/ranged damage they offer isn't a lucrative setup.

    The real bone to pick is running three full tank groups (7 Healers 3 Mage DPS) vs two mage groups (6 Healers 5 Mage DPS/SK).

    As it currently stands in T5/DOF two mage groups is more damage, and content is too easy that you don't need to split tank encounters or bounce agro to preserve power/temps. In KOS and beyond, running two mage groups doesn't really fit as healers begin to do more damage and having multiple tanks becomes beneficial to defeating raid encounters that aren't turn/burn.
  5. Fleshdecay Well-Known Member

    I would love if the casting/reuse nerf on gear had enough impact to make predators viable, but I highly highly doubt it. Come KoS and until DoV, predators are doing less or equal dps to classes that have way more utility. They desperately need some form of utility to be viable unless the easiest route is to just buff their damage. I get the impression they don't have time to balance classes better on tle's (besides constantly trying to fix summoners) since the classes that have always been subpar stay subpar.
  6. boho Member

    Predators - or depending on how you look at it, Rogues - turned out to be a design mistake. Piling all the utility onto Rogues means Predators are left in an awkward position where either they must be top DPS by a wide margin or they're not actually worth taking besides for fun.

    As for which of those outcomes is better for the game, it's better if Predators get the short end of the stick. That way only 2 classes are "worthless." If Predators become the god-kings of DPS their lack of utility would suggest they should be, twice as many classes become comedy picks (Sorcerers and Summoners). And apparently that's actually what ended up happening on Live in the latest expansion.

    What really should have happened was some Rogue utility get shifted to Predator, just like how Sorcerers have some utility. But I think we're well beyond the point where that could happen and not break the game in half.
    Kuvan and Fleshdecay like this.
  7. Fleshdecay Well-Known Member

    An alternative that I assume would be quick and easy to help predator out a little bit. Give them an early stealth bypass ability in vanilla
  8. KaladimNate Member

    The problem has never been that Predators cant put out some pretty great solo dps. The problem is that a Predator's damage (and Scout groups by comparison) is never going to beat the total amount of raidwide damage that just bringing a second mage group would bring. Slotted into MT/OT groups, scouts individually perform okay. There's a reason you bring a few of them (brigand debuffs, swash hurricane dps in DoF+, etc.), but you're never going to run a full Scout group because you have to measure the amount of raidwide dps being done by the buffed Scout group vs the total raidwide damage of the way that Mages buff synergystically. Essentially, at no point will building a group around buffing a few Scouts do more raidwide than just a second Mage group.

    The Scout(s) might look higher on the parses individually, but the total combined dps of a second Mage group is going to be significantly higher. If Scouts had a way to work synergistically the same way that Mages did, there is potential to change that.