Tired of the buckler

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Storme2006, Jun 27, 2007.

  1. ARCHIVED-Storme2006 Guest

    As a mid 50s berserker, I've been STA/STR spec'd for a little while now, and I have to say after so long I've become annoyed with the buckler. The other day, I grouped with another berserker, one level higher than me, who was MT while I stuck to DPS. He used a tower shield, and consistantly had higher DPS than me, even with full double attack ability. I was discouraged by this, and it's turned me off from the STA line all together. I'm a casual player who mostly tanks in groups and solos, and I want to escape using a buckler and move to using a tower shield and the new 1h I bought. I've considered full STR/INT, and tried it on PVP test and liked it, but I want to know the opinions of others with more experience. What's a viable alternative to the STA line? I don't want to hear "You n00b, STA pwns", or anything like that. I'm just looking for intelligent replies from my peers. Thanks.
  2. ARCHIVED--Mummel- Guest

    You n00b, STA pwns ! if you really wanna go another way and concentrate on tanking, you might wanna consider wis as long as your equipment isn't that good, as soon as it gets better (legendary, fabled) wis won't be worth it. str/int is most likely the combination with the highest dmg output when you go with a tower, agi would help you more with tanking (dragoon reflexes), but maybe not that much with dmg as most encounters are still single mobs, will help you with group aggro though. i'd say any combination of str, agi, int is good, even any combination with wis as long as your equipment sucks and you're far from diminishing returns. even though you don't want us talking sta here i don't really get the reason why you don't like sta anymore because sta just does more dmg than tower, there is not even close to a way that an equally equiped and buffed tower zerker comes even close to a sta zerker dps wise.
  3. ARCHIVED-YummiOger Guest

    [p]Aside from Ken's total lack of social grace, he does have good pionts in his post.[/p][p]Stamina line will always out parse 1hand/tower given close item quality. Why was thw other Zerk out DPSing u?.. i dunno. maby he had some group procs on him? [/p][p]IMO Stamina line is the way to go all the way. But if ur looking to use a tower, STR/INT or INT/AGIL are the way to go. Personally if i used 1hand/Tower, i would use Agil/Int full lines.[/p]
  4. ARCHIVED-Le Vampyre Le'Stat Guest

    [p]STR/STA is over rated, if you are a sheep then stick to what the rest of the herd are doing and go down that line. However, if you don`t want to look like a pansy running around with a lighter shield cause you don`t have the str or balls to lift a real mans shield aka the Tower Shield, then go another line like STR/WIS.[/p][p]With the new update coming out there are no penalties for the hunker down line when you complete the AA line for wisdom, meaning you can sit in defensive stance and hunkered down with no penalties. Soloing will be even better, I hit over 57% in offensive at the moment and a little over 61% when in defensive, soloing and tanking I am usually in offensive mode and I never taunt unless it is to finish an ho or to grab another couple of mobs. The dmg output maintains aggro far more effectively than the hate gain from taunts. dmg = hate gain = taunts.[/p][p] [/p]
  5. ARCHIVED-Schmalex23 Guest

    Very funny, you recomend the worst AA line we have and not taking the strongest we have. Im just curious what you parse if you think we are "sheep." There is a reason all the top zerkers are spec'd somewhat the same... because it yields the best benefit. Also just incase you didnt get the memo... mitigation is junk so enjoy your uber leet hunker down action while you parse 500.
  6. ARCHIVED-Storme2006 Guest

    Thanks for the responses everyone, it really helps. What do you mean mitigation is junk?
  7. ARCHIVED-Xalmat Guest

    Emigre@Nagafen wrote:
    I think he's referring to the diminishing returns curve. Once your mitigation starts to get into the 50%+ range, it becomes much much less worthwhile to invest in points of mitigation as opposed to avoidance or damage output.
  8. ARCHIVED-xandez Guest

    Atreu@Everfrost wrote:
    /sarcasm off hmm... i think i need coffee... :p Your kinda right thou... STA line is... boreing at least :p But, it still gives ya choice to do the most dmg with similarish eq. Thats why its so boring :p ++Xan
  9. ARCHIVED-Mildavyn Guest

    [p]Don't beleive the hype. Mitigation is still King. Just some people can't quite understand the complex mathematical equations (/sarcasm) that prove it.[/p][p]If STR/STA works for you, then more power to ya. For me, I'm taking STR/WIS.[/p][p]Mitigation is King, all hail Mitigation.[/p]
  10. ARCHIVED-Dimglow Guest

    Paikis@Venekor wrote:
    I love the people who think they have it down when they can understand simple equations. If the simple equations were all that mattered then complex considerations like overhasting/underhasting wouldn't matter would they? Similarly, many people ignore the big picture, and fail to realize that a character is essentially "on a budget." They go to market with so much potential, and they wheel and deal to get the most out of the many options they can "purchase." The problem with mitigation is that while it gives a constant return per point, it does not have a constant cost per point, and you have to tune your mitigation to your needs. However... Yes, it is true that diminishing returns is a misnomer when used in a strictly mathematical sense. Each point of mitigation gives the same defensive bonus. However, piling on more and more mitigation is a highly costly strategy to the tank, eventually you're sacrificing off your dps, threat, and health to get mitigation. There's two ways to look at that: First, you're paying a bigger and bigger price for the same defensive return, and second, you're putting a lot more effort in for less of an overall reward. Consider it this way: You're a poor farmer, without a lot of money. In fact you're almost penniless! But luck is with you, for you suddenly have a goose that lays golden eggs when you feed it a lot of ... well, whatever golden egg geese eat. We'll call it geese-feed. You spend hours shoveling feed down the things throat, and *pop* out comes a golden egg. Suddenly your wealth has increased dramatically! You've got a big hunk of gold! So you keep shovelling it, and keep getting more and more eggs... But eventually you have piles and piles of gold... *pop* out comes another... now your wealth has increased by a tiny amount relatively. Really, if you have thousands of golden eggs, what difference does another make? You can buy anything you'd ever want, so there's no point in continuing. So while that first egg meant the world to you, the umpteenth egg is valueless. Mitigation is our golden egg. Once you have enough of it, there's no point in feeding the goose. So even though that umpteenth egg of gold is still worth the same thousands of dollars the first was, it has no value to the farmer who has plenty enough wealth to last a lifetime. In that case, his effort/time are no longer proportionate to the happiness he'll gain through getting more golden eggs. He stops feeding the goose. Somehow, despite the money value of the egg remaining the exact same, it is no longer worth as much to him. Wouldn't this be a clear-cut case of diminishing returns? Maybe he goes out and tends the fields, so he has dinner that night, or he spends some time with his wife and kids and improves his family life. The farmer sure isn't going to spend his entire life collecting golden eggs to no purpose. Because the farmer who has nothing but collect golden eggs is likely to have naught but piles of meaningless gold. In the sense that the amount of effort you put into mitigation beyond a point gives an unworthwhile reward, then yes indeed, it is a case of diminishing returns ruining mitigation. For tanks, mitigation is like a golden egg for us, and you could consider our dps our fields, if we don't dps, we don't "eat" the damage the mob is pushing out, and our mitigation is worthless. A starving farmer can't eat gold, just as a hateless tank can't absorb damage. You could call tending a family an hp pool or something too, if we don't have any reason to endure and hold out, why bother with it anyway? It's all a silly stretch of an analogy, I know, but bear with me. :mrgreen: The old system gave increasing rewards to mitigation, which matched with the increasing effort it took to raise mitigation beyond a point. Getting that rare +mit jewelry was tough, but it was worth it. But now all the mit jewelry in the game won't make as much of a difference as a few well thought out and rounded pieces of gear that offer dps/stats/resists/etc. Running with 300-500 less mitigation in exchange for 200-500 DPS is something that almost all top Berserkers, and indeed even many Guardians do. Just look at how often O stance is preferred over D stance, even in raid situations. There is no "King" stat when designing a character. The most well-rounded characters will often perform the best. Mitigation isn't necessarily "junk" either. However by the time you are in good platemail you will be approaching the point where you have enough "golden eggs" that it just isn't worth feeding the goose anymore, it is simply better to bring up your DPS/Evasion/Threat/HP/etc. I'm sure we've all heard the saying "**** happens." Well, in the case of plate tanks, the saying is "Mit happens." We reach the point of diminishing returns to effort very quickly, it is just part of wearing platemail, chasing it much past that point is nothing more than a wild goose chase. (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) :mrgreen:
  11. ARCHIVED-Legiax Guest

    [p]How Embarassing.[/p][p]Some of these posts blatently show the great EQ2 attitude of .... "I think I know what im on about, so im gonna convince everyone else I do!"[/p][p]As Skel mentioned, we are not "Sheep", we are just sensible and using the best build out there at the moment. Currently as it stands I can guarentee that if you put 10 of the top raiding zerkers in a line, and asked for AA builds 9/10 would resemble:[/p][p]STR: 4-4-8[/p][p]STA: 4-4-8-8[/p][p]INT: 4-1 [/p][p]Variations of that build are king for tanking right now, like it or not, its true. You get maximum hate gain from the spike dps (if you didnt know, Hate decays over time, so Spike DPS is how we get our agro). Without the damage granted from the double attack / crit lines, your never going to hold agro effectively, and will always be needing a ton of hate transfer on you, especially if off tanking. I know myself and Etherian who were Off Tanks for Onyx (#1 PvP raid guild), were using builds very close to that, i had points in the % hate increase though, I know Skel isnt far off that, and neither is Kemt (see his sig).[/p][p]Mitigation is not King, as Kemt mentioned, no stat is king. Mitigation past around 55% is hardly the best stat to be working on. If you can keep your avoidance / mitigation balanced, and your HP high... then your set. In the end, as most of us will tell you, you can have 61% avoidance if you want, but its not going to make much of a difference at all vs 55% or similar, what counts is our shield block chance and uncontested parry / riposte chances. Your goal should be to reach around 55% avoidance / 55% mit at least when buffed in a semi-decent group, and aim for around 8.3k HP solo at level 70... also as a minimum, presuming you raid.[/p][p]Hunker down is essentially useless, it gives a mitigation boost in the form of a number, with diminishing returns, this equates to around ... 3%, maybe less. The haste you lose from it is barely noticable if you are specced correctly.[/p][p]In short, calling us sheep is stupid..., your telling another player to take an inferior AA build, and reduce his ability to play his class..., because you think we are sheep?[/p][p]Good Stuff, Please move along.[/p][p] [/p]
  12. ARCHIVED-kenman Guest

    Paikis@Venekor wrote:
    Let's see. I don't wear any mitigation jewelry, I'm specced STR/STA, and yet I've tanked nearly everything in Emerald Halls with in offensive with no issue. Yup, mitigation sure is king.
  13. ARCHIVED-YummiOger Guest

    [p]This thread makes me LOL ... [/p][p]THE BEST zerkers in game tell some1 the info they need and some NOOB (i hate that term, but it applies) says .. -Your a Sheep!! If u listen to them! U Need to take the worst AP line, produce less hate/dps, and be like me!- [/p][p]LOL ..[/p][p]and! i just knowticed Paikis is a Bard !! LOL .... GO GO MIT KING![/p][p]AND! Hey Atreu! Isnt ur Zerker only like Lv 25 or something?.. Or was it a guardian?[/p]
  14. ARCHIVED-womperobu Guest

    Emigre@Nagafen wrote:
    Yeah, I'm not sure how he can put out more DPS than you unless his 1-hander has like double the damage range than yours. Well in anycase, if you prefer to spec away to something like a 2-hander or 1-hander/tower, maybe go down INT line and either AGI (for AoE attacks) and/or STR for criticals. WIS, as been stated, is just plain weak and not warranting a look.
  15. ARCHIVED-epyon333 Guest

    [p]LOL im seeing all ther argueing thats going on about the OP question. but it seems no one noticed that he said the zerker with the tower was MT. so he was losing a lot of dps. rememeber a quite a few of our CA's have an effect when we get hit. so no dmg from being hit from the offencive stance, bullying defence line, no beserk( unless it came from the MT group beserk) and half of your chances for DMG from bucklers reversal come from being attacked. basically if your not MT your not as effective. [/p]
  16. ARCHIVED-Slayer505 Guest

    Yeah Stamina line really sucks. I hate being able to put out close to 2k single target and 3k multi-target in raid encounters and still being over 60% avoidance if I have to go defensive. It just really sucks. /sarcasm off If a guy with a tower shield was out DPSing you then you need to look at more then just your AA spec. Look at what weapon he had first and what other gear. Look at all his stats. If he has tons better gear then you it will make up for the lack of stamina line, plus not getting Weapon Aegis, Taunting Defense, Buckler Reversal etc. procs from not being MT. A guy with good gear and a crappy AA spec will probably keep up with someone with crap gear and a good AA spec. And yes, I'm Str/Sta/Int as well and have successfully tanked all EoF instances 99% in Offensive stance.
  17. ARCHIVED-epyon333 Guest

    ohhh and rampage. cant forget that. its always a big boost to dps even against a single target. basically if your in a group with another zerker and hes the MT you cant out dps him, unless he sucks and has crappy gear.
  18. ARCHIVED-Storme2006 Guest

    That's a good point about his damage output from getting hit. Completely forgot about that. I'm logged in right now and looking at options. I hate to say this, but I think I might stick with the STA line, or at least part of it, based on the responses I've read here. I really do like the INT line, though, so I'm trying to figure out how I should do this. At first I thought I might go full on STA/INT, but I'm not sure I want to sacrifice the crit bonus from the STR line. I could do something like 488STA488221INT41STR and still get the strike ability, but it wouldn't get me deep enough into crit. Is that bonus really worth it?
  19. ARCHIVED-Obadiah Guest

    [p] We lose SOME DPS when not MT, but Offensive Stance doesn't proc when you get hit, but rather when you hit your opponent. And you can still Berserk without getting hit since it will go off when you hit as well. I'm almost always berserk when I'm OT. No reason the OP couldn't use his Rampage either.[/p][p]I'm currently STR/INT and it's worked just fine for me. I'm generally OT in raids. When needed, I've had no hate issues with the 1H + Tower. I planned to change once I got the buckler from FTH and/or a better 1Her, but I may stick with STR/INT after GU37 and DW instead. [/p]
  20. ARCHIVED-Chayna Guest

    Unless something changes to make other lines more viable I'm afraid that STA and a buckler are going to rule the day. It's not being "sheep" its just facts. STA + buckler is more efficient based on numbers and testimony of every end game beserker I've talked to or who has bothered to work the numbers. The closer you get or the further past you get to DR it just makes sense. If I had a good 1h and buckler I wouldn't hesitate respecing to STA. I don't want to (it feels unbeserkery). I don't like being confined to it but there isn't a viable alternative. Right now I don't have a good 1h, or good buckler, or really even mediocre so I use my kettledude katana and keep my crappy KOS AA build (and plod along). But I can get away with that because I don't do high end tanking. I'm pretty sure if I show up someplace with my Demolisher title and my cheerful to die attitude they might let me join but probably wont let me tank much. With the 5 respec card we are suppose to get I will try different builds and see if I can find something that suits me more and hope that they make other lines more viable and hope that some decent weapons come my way. Till then I can only have buckler envy (even if bucklers just don't make me feel all zerkerish).