Time to re-visit avoidance and mitigation

Darkonx wrote:

LOL? Are you talking about brawlers here or SK's cause it sure looks like you are talking about SK's.

BChizzle wrote:

Shadowknights have less avoidance, inferior snaps, and less self-saves than a brawler.

Darkonx wrote:

Fixed it for you. Of course you would want Sk's to have more avoidance then a brawler your class isn't OP enough.

Darkonx wrote:

Lol, who has highest dps potential, better self-saves, 4 bloodletters or 1 minute reuse tsunami like life save, and best overall aggro? It's crusaders.
Not to say, only scrub plate tanks would be in defensive stance when they can hit mit cap easily in offensive and keep uncontested avoidance with shield on. In the current mechanics, there is no reason for plate tanks in defensive stance in raid.

Darkonx wrote:

Please stop posting jokes. 4 bloodletters, magic reflection and 30k self ward is a lot better than any life save in this game.
Not to say, sk has a lot better overall aggro than brawlers.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

Just correcting some mis-information here. It is 3 BL triggers not 4. And in order for BL to tic it has to steal from group members, doesn't work if everybody in the group dies in other words, and is not castable in combat. Magic reflection is 40% less magic damage so definitely not absolute, but yeah it is nice, on a longer recast though. 30k self ward is actually health stolen from group and not nearly as good of an ability as people make it out to be...I hardly ever use it, and less people alive in the group means less ward...no people mean no ward.
Oh and about the Tsunami-like ability.....the SK version is 3x the reuse time...Pallies get one on the short reuse.
But this isn't about SKs...no matter how much Blanka wants to make everything about SKs. Its about how avoidance tanking doesn't work and come next xpac it is going to really show. Leather wearers can reach mit cap already and it is only half way through this tiers first xpac, at the same time they have much higher avoid, more importantly immunity to strike-thru. Quite probably with the new gear coming out, especially next xpac, brawlers will get hit a lot less and because of mit caps will take the same amount of damage. IMO this is fine for me because they do have to give up a lot to do that, DPS+agro. As long as it is a big difference to go offensive to defensive to acheive this I don't see a problem with it.
Where there will be a problem is if people get their way about having the same DPS/Agro as other tanks while being able to achieve that much higher survivability....or even worse push other tanks into having to make the same sacrifices but not allowing them to have the same survivability will completely unbalance things.
But yeah, I predicted Brawlers would be OP'd next xpac anyway just looking at the trend of xpacs and how they started out this xpac with the mit levels they can reach.

Bruener wrote:

Again, you miss the point that plate tanks still mitigate dmg better than brawlers even both hit mit cap because plate tanks have dmg reduction from their epic buff and plate tank only gear.
Not to say, 99% brawlers won't have a chance to hit mit cap. Even for 1% brawlers, equal geared plate tanks still mitigate dmg better because the reason I listed above.
More important, every fighter should sacrifce dps potential for survivability, vice versa. However, it is not the case of crusaders and warrior. It needs to be fixed.

Amen Brother!

I don't see why this is devolving into who has better stuff.
Per hit doesn't mean very much because of terms on how many times a mob can attack in a given time. If you can survive one hit, thats great, but if you don't survive the next one because it happened before you were topped off then it just wasn't enough. But thats speaking on the short term.
Long term your health bar means little, in fact replace it with your healer's power bar. If your DTPS (Damage taken per second) is too high in this case, your healers run out of power and we all know what happens then. This is assuming your healers are doing their job as well as the DPS (all tanking arguments should assume this).
I'm going to repost my second point again since all it seems you read was the first line and took it out of context.
Key thing to keep in mind. A tank in the proper level gear (Tier 2 fighting mobs that drop Tier 3) should be adequete enough to do two things: Survive the encounter assuming equally geared healers and hold hate versus an equally geared DPS assuming a proper hate holding rotation is being used. This should be a priority in balancing the tank classes to make sure they can do their jobs.
Next you balance the tank classes around each other to make sure they are roughly as effective as one another. But only if and only if they can all perform their jobs. No reason to nerf a tank to being useless because another one is. But thats common sense of course. This is also the part where you adjust their DPS a bit so when they are not tanking that they can help with the encounter.

And I will repost what I did that you clearly missed.
Brawlers have the weakest aggro while tanking because we are forced to be in defensive. We lost 30%-40% dps potential (which equals to aggro) for survivability.
On the contrary, crusaders/plate tanks dps need a fix because they didn't sacrifice dps potential and aggro for survivability.
Every fighter should sacrifce dps potential for survivability, vice versa. However, it is not the case of crusaders and warrior. It needs to be fixed.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

Don't even waste your time its typical SK fodder where they try and divert attention for their class being so overpowered, the OP doesn't even have a grasp of game mechanics and doesn't know what he's talking about. Fact is I am still waiting on this 90% avoidance parse.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

Odd because to hit cap on mit I give up a lot of DPS....I mean I have to put on my +mit gear which is not as much DPS, I have to go into defensive stance which drops my hit rate a lot. And I can't touch the avoidance level of Brawlers no matter how defensive I go.
As a SK I do not have the damage reduction that the other "tanks" enjoy. And my survivability tools are on a lot longer recast and I have less of them.
Wow, maybe things aren't nearly as out of whack as what some people like to make others believe.

Bruener wrote:

ROFL.

Bruener wrote:

It's a simple math.
Plate armor is about 70% more than leather armor.
If you had hard time to hit mit cap, how could a brawler be able to hit mit cap as you claimed in other posts?

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

SOE has added abilities for leather wearers to hit that cap. Abilities that give them much more +mit. Are you denying that you can hit mit cap?
The real question is why is it so easy for all tanks to hit mit cap already but not so easy to hit an avoidance cap?

Bruener wrote:

Any plate tank can also hit the block cap with all the block chance gear that is out there. The only aviodance advantage brawlers have is immunity to strikethrough. You are delusional.

CESIUM SHOW THE PARSES OR DELETE YOUR POST
Time to show these avoidance parses you ran your mouth about. And no they cant be laden with non block numbers that shows a snap when specials are up bs report.
Becuase I do raid tank all this crap and your brawler is a crapload better than my parses even when I do stack tank gear all over me and kill my dps.

Rasttan@Unrest wrote:

It is just typical behavior for this group of players. In the end since they don't want to take a rational approach to their class when it gets overnerffed they will only have themselves to blame.
For kicks I just threw on every item on block gear/defensive gear I have, my uncontested block was 54.5% and my mit while wearing it was 9511. Here is the best part my ability mod is 296 and crit bonus 26.5 and potency 22.5 with 39% double attack.
Then I threw on the gear I tank in, hmm lets see my uncontested block is actually 43.3% mit is 10119 ability mod 479 crit bonus 30.9, potency 26.2 and 32.6% DA.
None of those are remotely near any cap whatsoever as a matter of fact reaching 43.3% uncontested block and 10119 mit is actually very easy for any plate tank class and they can do so while in offensive stance.
So again SK tell me why you guys aren't OP? Oh and Cesium lets see this parse.

Bruener wrote:

Not just brawlers, most plate tanks have aa abilities to increase mit, it makes plate tanks even easier to hit mit cap.
Are you denying that you can hit mit cap easily? If you had hard time to hit mit cap, how could a brawler be able to hit mit cap as you claimed in other posts?

BChizzle wrote:

Bchizzle is correct.
It s alreayd a well known fact that contested avoidance does absolutely nothing. Tons of parses showing raids mobs completely ignore all contested avodiance.
So lets assume a brawler can get 75% block which requires myth/defensive stance and ~170% block chance at lvl 90.
In order to get 85-90% actual avoidance the brawler would need an additional ~40-60% uncontested base avoidance.
(This does not even include the LEVEL adjustment which lowers it further.)
What gear does your brawler have that gives him that much uncontested avoidance?
Now if you are including shield ally and another fighters(preferably brawler) avoid buff on your brawler. Then your under 50% is complete bull.
I would love to see this brawlers avoidance report on any actual raid npc. If your brawler is tanking heroic adds in raids thats not a raid npc.
Here is a helpful hint of the day for you. Did you know that plate tanks actually have MORE base uncontested block then brawlers. You see brawlers are limited to 27% minimum block via AA's, defensive stance, and mythical buff. Today went live the personae change were we can actually see this. With one of the best raid shields in game a plate tank will have more uncontested block then brawlers.
And regardless of what bruener said plate tank can hit the avoidance cap. Of course certain classes such as brawlers and oddly paladins will hit it easier then others due to extra block chance via AA's.