Time to re-visit avoidance and mitigation

With the new changes to brawlers and their "Strike thru immunity" its time to re-visit base avoidance again. Brawlers now are all ready reaching the mitigation cap and doing this while also reaching 90-95% TRUE avoidance. This is leaving a large gap between tanks. Brawlers have a huge advantage over any other tank from a defensive perspective.
Its time to look at either raising the mit cap or removing it all together. The mitagation cap being removed would allow for a much more balanced look at comparing the core defence of each tank. Plate tanks can easily reach the current cap of 75%. Now there are Brawlers reaching those same numbers. Removing this cap would give the plate tanks a chance to compete again for thier raid slots again. After all its your ability to take hits, or avoid them, which makes you a tank in the first place.
Avoidance is off the charts right now for brawlers. On raids I see our monk hitting 92%+ avoidance. He hits this insane amount of avoidance while also hovering very close to the mitagation cap. As a brawler they are immune to strike thru so that 92% avoidance is a true reflection of there avoidance. Where as other fighters still have to deal with strike thru chances while having nearly 20% less avoidance.
Now that LU56 is on the verge of release maybe we can start this new project for LU57?

Cesium@Nagafen wrote:

The actual difference in avoidance is about 10% which is about the difference of the strikethrough, just because our avoidance displays as higher almost all of that avoidance difference is contested avoidance and therefor useless. Also 75% is the lvl 90 cap it is ok to go higher then the level 90 cap since most raid mobs are 96 and up. The good news is despite your claims there are actually very few brawlers hitting the mit cap, it requires alot of buffs and to gear mit% which is mostly garbage gear that ends up crippling their dps to the point they can't even tank in it anyways. Irregardless, avoid isn't everything you can hardly discount things like the huge amount of heals your SK class can put out, damage reductions etc and you also need to understand that not getting hit as much doesn't proc as many reactives and is disadvantageous to HoT healers.

reguardless of what you think is happening. ACT avoidance reports have our monk in the 85-90% avoidance. While the plate tank is under 50%. Avoidance needs to be changed. Brawlers need to come down a minimum of 15% and the mit cap needs to be raised to 85+

Cesium@Nagafen wrote:

LOL 85-90%? Let's see these so called avoidance reports.

How much DPS are monks taking in comparison to plate? Raw numbers on a stat sheet don't tell the whole story. I know some of the Plate DPS have cooldowns to mitigate more then just the 75% mitigation cap. For example (and I use arbitrary numbers here) raid boss does 10000 damage. Mitigation cap reduces this to 2500 damage but a defensive cooldown may reduce this to 1250.
One instance where a Brawler replaces a Guardian as MT isn't enough to call for nerfs to a class, despite the outdated thinking many of you might have. Shoot I'd bet some still think Crusaders shouldn't tank, dunno what role they expect them to fill.

Taemien@Lucan DLere wrote:

this is a good question. i'm a mt zerk and i noticed that almost all mobs (i pretty tank ez mode for the most part) are doing more magic than melee damage by a good margin. i already theorized with my guild leader that monks were gonna be the best mt for raids with current mechanics and he lvled one up and is gearing it out now.
as far as i can tell the 75% mit is a hard cap. the mit number goes up but the % does not, and i can't see any difference in damage intake when i over shoot it.

/gasp. Things are starting to come to light. Wait till next xpac when we are in the same tier to see how things really play out.

Taemien@Lucan DLere wrote:

50 brawlers could replace guardians how again would that be any different then the 50 SK's that replaced them too? A brawler MT is not actually a bad idea until you realize that a brawler MT doesn't have even remotely close to the agro generation of any other tank class then you just bring in the crusader. Anyow I'd love for Cesium to show this avoidance report of a brawler with 85-90% raid avoidance who has capped mit, it won't happen though.

BChizzle wrote:

Lol. The constant desperation of keeping things pointed at SKs is getting a little pathetic.

Bruener wrote:

The constant SK pointing at other classes to keep theirs on top is typical.

Which mob would you like to see? What information do you want? I'd be more then willing to share the info. I dont have any reason to lie. Im not tryn to bolster any ones agenda. I was in SF beta. I was pushing hard for brawlers to get immunity to strike thru. Id just like to see the base avoidance adjusted to make up for this, and or the mit cap removed so that the plate tanks can be back in line on a defensive level.

Cesium@Nagafen wrote:

Any raid mob is fine provided it isn't a short fight (But shouldn't it be a zonewide I mean you are claiming 85-90% avoids all the time right?) so that the tank just didn't cycle their avoidance temps. I range between 65-72% avoidance MT buffed on raid mobs no way your brawler is getting 85-90%. Even lets say somehow they have their block maxed at 70% and they had on every pre-SF avoidance item (which btw would then make it impossible to max mit) a brawler still won't come even close to that number. Also provide your brawlers mit at the time I seriously doubt it is capped as you claim.
And for the record I wasn't for immunity to strikethrough in BETA (except for temps) but if you actually look all they did was make brawlers immune to strikethrough then lowered the amount of strikethrough on raid mobs. My avoidance is right around the same % it was last expansion 10% more then plate tanks.

Cesium@Nagafen wrote:

Bascially, you have no idea of the game mechanics.
The base avoidance means nothing in raid because it is contested. Lowering brawler base avoidance won't change anything in raid. Brawlers didn't get extra uncontested avoidance than plate tanks until they get epic buff.
The avoidance difference (uncontested part) between brawler and plate tank comes from two parts: one is the epic effect/buff and another is strikethrough immunity when brawlers are in defensive stance.
Brawlers got extra 5% min. block from epic effect/buff and most plate tanks got some sort of dmg reduction from their own epic buff/effect.
Guardian got 5% dmg reduction temp buff, zerker got 5% dmg reduction, pal got 10% dmg reduction AND 10% dmg healed back.
It's really easy for plate tanks to hit 75% mit vs lv98 mob (about 15k) but it's very hard or impossible for brawlers until the brawler is with most pieces of T3 armor and most jewelries with mitigation. At the moment, there isn't any brawler with full T3 armor.
Even with the same mitigation, plate tanks still mitigate dmg more than brawlers because they get extra dmg reduction from their epic effect/buff. At the same time, brawlers avoid more than plate tanks because of our epic effect/buff.
Crying of why plate tanks can mitigate more dmg than brawler is silly and crying of why brawlers can avoid more dmg than plate tank is silly as well.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

I don't think thats what the discussion is about. I believe it is about Brawlers mitigating more then Plate tanks. But I haven't seen any evidence shown of this. It looks possible on paper though. I'm not seeing any self buffs that plate tanks give themselves to reduce damage, only to increase mitigation.
That might be part of the problem. In other MMOs including EQ1, tanks were able to mitigate damage by percentages the form of short duration buffs. Perhaps that is what the warrior subclass needs here.
Granted the mythicals provide this, I'm speaking of some cooldowns that could be used much earlier then 80s. Something for the lowbies to play around and get used to before endgame pops up.

aemien@Lucan DLere wrote:

Plate tanks do have dmg reduction effect from their epic buff except SK. Some plate tanks only gear has dmg reduction effect as well. Not to say, plate armor mit >>> leather armor mit.
Brawlers didn't mitigate dmg per hit more than equal geared plate tanks, period.

Per hit doesn't mean very much because there's outside factors that can cause other issues.
What does matter is how much DPS the tanks themselves are taking. We know Brawlers are avoidance tanks, and we know Plate are mitigating tanks. But what matters if they are on par with each other in their ability to reduce damage.
In an ideal situation a Brawler will avoid as much damage in a set time (such as an encounter) that a Plate tank will Mitigate. But situations are never the norm, which is why we have 6 different tanks. Sometimes one will be better for a certain fight then another. But they should all pretty much work in every situation (minus the tank swapping fights of course).
A guild or raidleader's preference shouldn't be a deciding factor on changes. But if one tank does seem to be pulling ahead more often then others in terms of effectiveness, then some toning will need to be done. Right now that appears to be contested, at least in this thread.
Key thing to keep in mind. A tank in the proper level gear (Tier 2 fighting mobs that drop Tier 3) should be adequete enough to do two things: Survive the encounter assuming equally geared healers and hold hate versus an equally geared DPS assuming a proper hate holding rotation is being used. This should be a priority in balancing the tank classes to make sure they can do their jobs.
Next you balance the tank classes around each other to make sure they are roughly as effective as one another. But only if and only if they can all perform their jobs. No reason to nerf a tank to being useless because another one is. But thats common sense of course. This is also the part where you adjust their DPS a bit so when they are not tanking that they can help with the encounter.

aemien@Lucan DLere wrote:

Incorrect.
Per hit is the key of survivability. On the other hand, average dmg taken means little to nothing of survivability.
You can get every hit without dying as long as you have enough mitigation and dmg reduction to absorb dmg and let healers heal you up.
But without enough mitigation and dmg reduction, you can avoid most hits but get killed by 2 consecutive hits, it's called spike damage.
It is why plate tanks can tank most raid targets, except hard mode, in DW or 2h without using shield; 0 block. With enough mitigation and dmg reduction, they didn't need to avoid any hit and healers can keep them up.
Next, just as what you said, tank should be balanced between survivability and dps.
Brawlers has the weakest aggro while tanking because we are forced to be in defensive. We lost 30%-40% dps potential (which equals to aggro) for survivability.
On the contrary, crusaders/plate tanks dps need a fix because they didn't sacrifice dps potential and aggro for survivability.

Couching@Crushbone wrote:

On top of that not getting hit means less procs and reactives go off and very few procs in this game go off on an avoid giving a clear advantage to tanks that get hit and avoid less.

BChizzle wrote:

On top of this the only agro proc that i can think of for a tank that procs off of an avoid check is on the warriors....

You can't take the same damage per hit, avoid more, have better snaps, better self-saves to live, and the highest potential DPS. Plate tanks do sacrafice a ton when tanking defensively, vs tanking offensively. Two different sets of gear is just as applicable to plate tanks as it is to leather tanks.