Thumore D'armer [MASSIVE SPOILER]

Vaedaer wrote:

The whole "Cazic and Quellious merging thier essences (not actual impregnation) to create the two gods of the dreamrealm" thing has always just been around the lore, but nobody can ever seem to find a credible source to where this came from. It's like unofficially official lore.
I know that Mithanial Marr's prophet tells you how he created the Minotaurs, but I haven't heard anything about Morrell's involvement in it either.

Cusashorn wrote:

The only time I heard about morell lorewise was when he took Marr's gift of life just to foil his Father's plans but nothing else, so that cazic/quellious merge dealy is new to me in all the years I've been playing EQ :S

Cusashorn wrote:

Define credible. I already pointed at someone who says that it's NPC flavor text in EQOA, and some people seem to turn up their noses at EQOA. *shrug*

Aurelis wrote:

I've been hearing it since before EQOA, but I can't find where it originated from.

Aurelis wrote:

EQOA has always been the redheaded stepchild of EQ Lore. While its useful to point to things in EQOA for things to speculate about, technically it is not cannon to EQ1 or EQ2. Anything created in EQOA can be gleefully adopted or ignored by the EQ2 devs. The same isn't true of EQ1. EQ2's devs need to be mindful of anything that existed upto PoP (and maybe LoY). Fortunately for us, they don't need to be concerned with anything from GoD on. Personally I hate the whole discord storyline even worse than anyone here hates the Void story line.
No seriously, its a rediculously stupid waste of an expansion where you have an invading army that never actually invades, or makes a difference in any Norrathian's life except for the busy bodies that stick their nose into it. And you have a floating city ship, otherwise know as the SS Lagboat. And and and...grrr..don't get me started.
Still, a refrence in EQOA is better than nothing. Right now, nobody remembers a refrence outside of that one.

I really wish I could find where I read it at. But, I remember back in EQ1 seeing that Quellious wanted to calm Cazic or help him to be a nice guy. Cazic was doing something bad at the time Quellious wanted to help fix/stop. Cazic wanted to use Quellious (maybe for kiddies?) I really cant remember anymore. So the 2 of them got together for thier own agendas.
Ugh I am getting old! I really wish I could remember where I saw it back then I read it long before EQOA came out though.

Here's my best attempt at an anagram, which I think sums up this epic thread:
Thumore D'armer = The Dream Rumor
A dream that turned into rumors about lore and what the future holds.

I'm all for the anagram thing and thinking Morrell Thule as well, but just maybe taking this a different direction, perhaps the name is a cypher. I'm horrible at those things, but you know, just tossing it out there...

I immediately thought of it being Morell-Thule, too (and was practically jumping up and down in my chair because I'm one of his [apparently precious few] fans). I ran to do the quest in Freeport next, pretty much expecting the sleeping person there to be a woman (=Terris), which would have cleared the whole thing of any doubt. However, the fact that it's the same guy there doesn't weaken any of the arguments for it being Morell, I guess.
Also, I thought I'd just throw in that it's quite likely that we'll see some change happening to the Shard of Love, as Jgok suggested. The zone is called "Shard of Love: A Moment of Valor", remember? That screams "more instances to come", I'd say.
Also, about Erollisi needing protection from "the Dreamweaver" -- I'd agree with Lodrelhai that Tunare and Erollisi simply didn't really know what Morell was up to. And since impregnating Erollisi obviously made her vulnerable, and Morell being 1) a Thule and 2) the mystery-monger that he is, I suppose they'd just rather be on the safe side. OR... wait, conspiracy theory coming up.
What if Cazic and Terris got a hold of Morrel shortly after he helped the Marr twins and then used him as a sort of puppet for a long time? Maybe first tried to use him to go after Erollisi - which is why she's got someone protecting her from "the Dreamweaver" - and then (maybe when it didn't really work out because they could not completely subdue him) they just locked him up somehwere for a few thousand years or so. Would explain why we've heard so little about him. Then, lateron, maybe Morell made use of the general upheaval caused by the gods' withdrawal from Norrath to shatter himself into fragments (later to be reassembled) in order to escape capture... That would tie in nicely with "giving up" his domain.
Okay... I'll admit that it sounds a bit far-fetched even to my own ears because he'd basically have been out for all that time without anyone ever learning of it, but it'd still be possible.
And finally, about the inofficially official bit about Cazic and Quellious creating Morell and Terris because the former two were fighting over the realm of dreams... It kind of makes sense. Should dreams be ruled by fear, or should it be peaceful, tranquil slumber? They'd totally argue about that domain. And Quellious's heritage would explain why Morell is such a black sheep in the merry band of evil divine families... Please correct me if I'm wrong (which I may well be), but as far as I recall, none of the other gods were so radically different in character from the one(s) who made them.
(Edit: stupid typos)

Maybe they actually meant "The Dream scorcher" and not the dream weaver on the dialogue on SoL but they messed up? =o

Anywho http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=book&bid=170 From Pond to Paladin >_>

Here's an off the wall idea, he someone we've never heard of at all!!!
Whether it'll lead to what ever's after Theer, or be a subplot in every holiday event, perhaps he's a "new" entity to enter the scene. After all, can't be Zeb (he came back already), could be any number of other anythings, but with eq2 pulling lore from "the lost age" (which didn't exsist before now) perhaps this fellow is from a similar time period, or simply completely unknown all together!! (unlikly, but I can hope)

Basically rehashing what others had said previously, but this are my observations.
1. Thumore D'armer
At first glance, or close enough, the name Thumore appeared to be a blend of another name - Morell-Thule. Morell. Thule. Thu More. Kind of a straightforward conclusion at this time.
Next is the name D'armer ... I wonder if this is like how Roadyle = Riddle works. The pronunciation or something like that. I cannot tell myself, but maybe someone else can see if D'armer and Dreamer sound alike. But anyway, the spelling came pretty close to saying dreamer, at least.
Anagram may be an option, but doesn't seem to be necessary. Though, the term "The Dream Rumor" sounds more likely at this point.
2. Dreams
Having us appearing in the collection/place of dreams appeared to be another evidence toward the remerging of Morell-Thule. Also this is the place Thumore stated he had woven for himself. Thumore had control of the dreams, for instance, he was able to bring people into his dream and create portals into dreams or memories where the missing shards are. Clearly we did not go to actual places - but only the memories of those places.
Finally when his lost pieces were reassembled, he stated his intention to return to the memories and the dreams of all across Norrath and to return to his place he gave up long ago.
.
Those two are major pieces of evidence that lead to the possiblity of Morell-Thule being involved in the world of EQ2, or coming to be. Other pieces are minor and may not be passable - i.e. Memory of Sand, Memory of Sky, etc being a part of 5-year anniversary.
I suppose that maybe the sudden release of Erollisi's trapped essence after so long revived "Thumore" and he needed some help regaining the last few shards that remained. How that came to pass ... I guess the events within the Plane of Time, the Pact (from Tome of Destiny), and probably the fragmenting of the Planes prompted "Thumore" to spread himself out within the memories and dreams of the mortals - thus perserving himself from being lost or being too weakened to defend himself.
Of course, the following lines (from Shard of Love) contradicted what Morell-Thule was known as:
Lanielle: "Precisely. Mere mortals we were, each blessed by Tunare with the strength and ability to better protect the expecting Goddess from the advances, trickery and corruptive plots of the Prince of Hate, the Faceless and the Dream Weaver."

Lanielle: "I was to protect her against the influence of dreams. Arawen is... was? Love's Protector against hate. Gwestanna was blessed with powers against fear. But we failed her. She is gone."
The Dream Weaver. Thumore actually mentioned he woven his own dream so maybe that is his title as well. Morell was firstly known as the Lord of Dreams. Also Morell was said to be an ally of Mithaniel Marr and against Cazic and his sister Terris-Thule. Yet, the Dream Weaver was lumped in with the likes of Innorrukk and Cazic-Thule?
Then there is this: protect the expecting Goddess ... Erollisi was expecting ... that was centuries ago and the result was the birth of the barbarians. Why protect Erollisi from Morell after the deed was done? Maybe it wasn't Morell Lanielle was to guard against ... maybe it was Terris-Thule after all.
Both Morell and Terris appeared to be able to weave dreams and nightmares - and memory by extension. The title can easily be applied to either one of them. So I cannot really determine which one Lanielle was speaking of.

Vanisher123 wrote:

And, yes, it may be simply a third party.

Coniaric wrote:
Finally when his lost pieces were reassembled, he stated his intention to return to the memories and the dreams of all across Norrath and to return to his place he gave up long ago.

Interesting line, perhaps this is someone who no one remebers or remebers wrong? Could explain why some of the people thought of Morrell as evil (if thats what those lines meant) if someone somehow twisted the memories of him to all of norrath.

Coniaric wrote:

Actually, if we were to take into account that perhaps each of the phrases belong to a name mentioned, what if she meant protect from Inny's corruptive plots, the Faceless' trickery and the Dreamweaver's advances? In that way, it isn't necessarily that the Dream Weaver would wish Erollisi harm just that its unwanted right now. Typically, though, I would expect Dream Scorcher to be used instead of Weaver if they meant Terris.

Vanisher123 wrote:

The "lost age" isn't well documented, but it has always existed in EQ Lore. The Combine Empire rose and fell during the Lost Age. The bits and peices of Combine History we know are mostly retrieved from Luclin from the cities of Katta Castelium and Seru. It is supposed that Qeynos and Freeport both got their starts during the Lost Age and were part of the Combine Empire, but its hard to believe. After all, that means both cities lost all written record of their ancient histories. Sure it could happen, but we've got written records of older events so the records skipping an age just doesn't make sense without divine intervention.
Now that Divine Intervention would be a convient time to place Anashti's banishment to the void. That could very well explain why the written records are missing because the gods decided to destroy all records of Anashti's existance. Its too bad that it doesn't fit into the timeline because the Combine Empire didn't rise until after the Desert of Ro was created and the Elves abandoned Tunaria.

I was sorta joking with the anagram thing, "The Dream Rumor". I played around with the letters for a minute or two and came up with that and was like "hey, that's essentially what this thread/event is about." All sorts of rumors floating around about the lore of this guy, and how everything fits together. Honestly, though, there's a lot of common letters in the words - it's easy to form anagrams. Also, there's cases where names are direct anagrams (Tunare = nature), and cases where they aren't.
I assumed it was Morell Thule. Thu(le) + More(ll), etc. And all the business about dreams. Makes sense.
Honestly, though, I don't think there's anything malevolent about whoever he turns out to be. There's absolutely nothing in the text of the event that indicates he could be. There was deception, but nothing specifically ill-natured. Think of it this way, if you had just succeeded in freeing an evil being, would he sit there and go "thank you! you've just helped save Norrath's future" or whatever? If he was a truly evil being, he probably wouldn't sit around talking kindly, since he really doesn't need you anymore.
As far as the zones we go to - I agree. Honestly I didn't read a lot into them as other people have - even the mobs that appear in the zone. They picked a variety of mobs from each expansion, and one simple dungeon to reproduce. You could link any diety to these places/mobs if you wanted to.
As far as Theer... I think it's somewhat clear that he's going to be a villain, at least in the next expansion. What I see shaping up is a struggle with the gods vs. Theer, where we help the gods, or us vs. Theer, where the gods help us.

I don't have anything of interest to comment on, except that I agree with the Morell Thule theory, but I wanted to say that this was a great thread to read and it was very interesting reading everyone's theories. And that I look forward to finding out what happens next.

I don't think Morell is all that evil myself, for the same reason I didn't think Thumore was Kerafyrm. There was no "HAHAHAH FOOLISH MORTALS!" moment.

I know they don't HAVE to make all evil people like that, but really...they do.

What would be kind of interesting is if maybe Morell had a bit of a crush on Erollissi. Unrequited love can be a powerful motivator, and it could explain wanting to protect Erollissi from unwanted advances and the influence of dreams. I don't really have any substantial evidence to back it up though.

Yeah, Kerafyrm is mentally unstable. There's no way he wouldn't have a FOOLISH MORTALS moment every 10 seconds.