Thoughts on Juggernaut

Silewen said: "infernus will never give up trying to prove his case, as evidenced by his 5 page monologue, and I'm sick of the personal attacks."

Silewen said: "Infernus please quiet down, grown ups are talking now."

And you whine about personal attacks? What a hyocrite.

"I could careless what anybody thinks on how I have decided and wish to play my class"

That is not the issue here. I've already said a million times I do not care how you play your class. The issue here is that you and Aonien want our class to be changed to suite your liking when you are clearly in the minority when it comes to trying to act as a full-fledged DPS with your Zerker.

"People who haven't played MMOs extensively honestly shouldn't even be allowed to argue points on their forums."

So if you never played any MMOs before EQ2 then you have no right to post on the EQ2 forums...yeah that makes a whole lot of sense.

"Their posts shows their lack of understanding and the knowledge of exactly how MMOs shape and change."

Your whole agrument is that you want Berserkers to be changed into a pure DPS class when they have been tanks from day one.

"I know that is asking alot, but I believe a well played berserker can at least bring some DPS to the table, albeit not as well as a scout or mage class, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it, I want people to have me on a raid for more than just being the raid tank or a possible alt-tank."

The problem, once again, is that you would have our tanking ability nerfed just so you can have have a tad more DPS. You admit that we are awesome tanks but half-***** DPS. But you only like to DPS. So you are calling for nerfs on our class's tanking ability so that you can have more DPS even though you know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well that you are never going to get the same DPS of a true DPS class. So you are in effect willing to throw away everything that makes us "uber" just so you can be a bit more than a half-***** DPS. Even if it means forcing everyone else who plays this class to share the same fate.

"Really my entire argument boils down to wanting to be able to raid, without being the main tank"

Exactly and you chose the wrong class for that purpose and now you're just screwed. End of arguement.

KhayosAD,

"Next Wizzie I hear say "here comes the FUSION bomb" I'm going to throw out a very high window."

Oh god man I hear you. That really boils my blood. And long live Sepultura!

BTW, you want to hear a funny story? Last night I was LFG...I was trying to find an HoF group (I'm 68 now) because I just need to kill Solthis and then I can do that solo instance of the Nest and get my Hoo'loh helmet (woot). Well I got invited to a Den group instead and since I still needed to kill the Devourer for my Grizzfazzle shield I went ahead and joined them (the shield I had been using was just about as good so I wasn't that concerned about it but, eh, what the hell). Well there was already a level 68 Guardian in the group when I joined. I was thinking, oh good I will get a break from tanking (since that's all I ever do and it does get old sometimes) and I will get to whip out one of my uber 2h's and go offensive and relax a bit while I follow someone else around and get some XP and my quest update. Because I was sure the Guard was already set up to be the MT. I was actually looking forward to that. But nooo...they all wanted me to be the MT instead. Imagine that. Well at least I finally got my Grizzfazzle sheild. =D
Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-16-200607:30 PM

This is where you are all so wrong, where have i stated that we are DPS class, where have i stated that we run with Scouts in similarity to DPS? I havent and never will, why? because i understand this class better most of you here stating that all we are is a Tank.
No i dont think we are a DPS, but like kaberu has said in another post, we can very noticeably lean that way, you just need to be able to do it and know how to go about it, but most people cant because there stuck in the stereotype that all we are is a tank and thats all we can do is tank, well i can tell you thats not all we can do and i feel sorry for the people who think thats all we can do, because your missing out on some of the more fun quailitys a berserker has.
I get sick of tanking 24 hours a day 7 days a week and i hate alts, so to maximize my play styles i can and will contuine to fill two postions wether it be group or raid. I like to sit back and just spam my CA's and watch the numbers fly out.
And to those Berserkers who tank raids and end up in the top 3 or 4 in DPS, its because you popped Rampage, Open Wounds and have a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] load of reactive procs on you form other classes that the parser is counting as your own DPS, we been around too long and know too well this is how it works, so stop pretending that we only do DPS when tanking because its a load of BS.
Seeing as we add the only haste / DPS proc buff in the game that is added to a group, you sure are right that we can fill two postions, 1 is tank and we fill that postion pretty [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] solidly and the other is Melee DPS group buffer seeing as it works like this: 1 item, 1 spell, 1 proc when it comes to Haste and we have yet to discover a cap on DPS which i have not seen yet because my DPS just gets higher and higher as the percentage increases.
So yeah, seeing as we add the only Haste / DPS proc in the game, i sure can see how and why we have two spots on raids, who ever said our other role was DPS? I think you guys might want to go all the way back through this 300 reply thread and check where we are saying that Zerkers are DPS, i think what you will find is that some of us dont chose to feel the doom and gloom the you feel when not chosen as a tank and we chose to make ourselves better at our secondary role.
Problem is, its easy to tank, i find it a little too easy to be honest in both agro control and finding the right group set ups to take stuff down, but DPS is something we have to work at, something most are not prepeared to take on as a feature or quaility the Berserker class can do, and no im not saying yeah lets pop rampage and open wounds for a small 3 min burst of DPS, im talking about sustained over long periods of time DPS, something the Zerker tanks wouldnt know how to do because all they do is Tank and walk away with there guts ripped out when they dont get used as a tank.

Is there a way to start a thread, with an option to not allow certain people to post? lol

I think it's got to a point where, the mass majority of people coming here for info, are simply skipping over certian other long, boring, worthless, posts.

Just thought I would point out the miss-information.
1. The Agility line does have a frontal AoE ability (3rd ability in the list, passive ability) with no weapon restrictions. The 2nd ability in the list is an AoE attack that can be used if a spear is equiped.
2. The Stamina line does have a double attack (3rd ability in the list, buckler required). You are more then likely thinking of the Intelligance line which is named Double Attack (and in Beta it did have a double attack effect) which icreases the haste of the player.

Nope I'm talking about maxxing out my double attack with a buckler and keeping a spear and axe hot-swappable to switch between my AGI and STR requirements for the first ability you receive after the stat boosts in those particular line.

Also wanted to add that Infernus continues to jab on this 3 person argument.... Let me rehash this conversation so far for everybody


Phildawg: Only cares about group tanking, and raid dpsing
Aoenin: Likes being able to raid tank, raid dps, and group tank
Infernus: Only prefers to raid tank and group tank

All of these options are currently found within our AAs, and can be achieved. Prolly won't make it into a tier1 raiding guild as a main tank, but you can be an alt-tank.

1. The description of the 2nd spell says "surrounding" (but the spell info "facing". But it's not passive, at least one thing correctly correcte:smileytongue:
2. erm, mixed up these two
Nachricht bearbeitet von Bremer am 03-17-200602:26 PM

"No i dont think we are a DPS, but like kaberu has said in another post, we can very noticeably lean that way, you just need to be able to do it and know how to go about it, but most people cant because there stuck in the stereotype that all we are is a tank"

What makes you think we even want to attempt that? If we are happy being tanks as we were designed why should we bother to go through a bunch of special crap to try and sqeeze out more DPS, especially when it requires a huge cut to our defenses and we still won't have good enough DPS to really compete with any scouts when it's all said and done? If that's what you like to do fine...have fun...but don't be trying to force your playstyle on everyone else. You seem to think that everyone who plays their class the "normal" way is playing it wrong.

"i can tell you thats not all we can do and i feel sorry for the people who think thats all we can do"

You are just not getting it. We all know that we have some DPS. We all know that we have the best DPS of all the fighter classes. That is not the issue here. The point is that we don't have enough DPS to really compete with any scouts for any DPS spots in any groups and raids. And we never will. Because anytime we start to get too close SOE will nerf us back down to teir1 where we belong.

"your missing out on some of the more fun quailitys a berserker has"

Have you ever considered the fact that the majority of the people who play this class prefer to tank and that's why they chose it to begin with? And if they had wanted to DPS then they would have rolled a DPS class instead? O_O You assume we are "missing out" on something if we don't choose to outfit ourselves to be more of DPS. Which I find really strange. I think you should count yourself lucky that you are in a guild that actually lets you live out your fantasies and pretend that you are a DPS when it's plain to see that you're really not.

"stop pretending that we only do DPS when tanking because its a load of BS."

Let me remind you what Moorgard said, "Berserkers will do more damage than guardians, especially when tanking."

"we can fill two postions, 1 is tank and we fill that postion pretty solidly and the other is Melee DPS group buffer"

Who likes being a buff bot?

"i sure can see how and why we have two spots on raids, who ever said our other role was DPS?"

So we have one group buff that is somewhat beneficial in raids...to buff the DPS of scouts. So unless we are MT we are nothing more than a buff bot that only needs to stand there to be doing its job. I think you have proven my point, thanks.

"im talking about sustained over long periods of time DPS, something the Zerker tanks wouldnt know how to do because all they do is Tank and walk away with there guts ripped out when they dont get used as a tank."

You assume way to much about other people man. Have you ever considered the possibility that we don't want to DPS, that we have no real desire to? Maybe we don't even want to try that hard to make ourselves better at it. Because maybe that's not our thing? Hence why we chose a plate tank class, to tank, not to DPS. Maybe once in a while when we really need to we will do what we can, of course. But we have no desire to do that on a regular basis, I think that's the point you're missing. We have no desire to make DPS'ing a full-time job like you apparently do. I know I don't because I know it is something that I will never be that good at no matter what I do. The bottom line is that the only place a Zerker can really shine is while tanking. You will never be uber as a Zerker in this game unless you tank. No one is ever going to really notice you for your DPS no matter what you do. If that's how you like to play then so be it. Just don't be trying to force that playstyle on everyone else who plays this class is all I am asking.

Now back to the main subject...Juggernaut sucks no matter what role you're trying to fill. Why shouldn't we get something that's actually at least somewhat useful to us in any situation like most other classes are? That makes no sense. It seems like you are so stuck on keeping it like it is because you are so desperate for more DPS that you are willing to keep a PoS spell that you know is not really worth it but you use it anyway just for the simple fact that it maybe gives you a tad extra DPS once in a while and you are so afraid that any change they make to the spell will nerf its DPS or make it into a non-DPS ability. And that is really sad and not to mention very selfish if you because it's obvious that the vast majority of the Berserker community feels that the spell sucks so bad that they will never even be able to use it at all. So you are willing to make everyone else suffer with the lack of a new marquee ability that they can actually use just so you can maybe get a tiny bit of extra DPS once in a while with it the way it is. Because that is the kind of person you are.

Oh yeah I almost forgot about this:
Aonien said, "wait until some of you see our Relic armor, im going to laugh so hard when you Zerker wannabe Guardians come here crying on the boards about it lol, cant wait for that show."

I don't see any problem with it. Looks pretty nice if you ask me.

Last nite I watched Ethereal Legacy's MT raid buff.... [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn], he was using a rosewood buckler (common crafted shiite but he knew it didn't matter, he only needs something in his secondary slot for his STA AAs).... He raid buffed to 5700 mitigation, 85.2% avoidance... I forget his health, I'm sure it was prolly like 12-13k. This isn't even a full month into the expansion. He is a guardian also btw. Could any raid tank berserkers post their stats. I mean I figure 85.2% is definitely beyond the avoidance cap when going up against 75-77 mobs...

The more I see Kalidon, the more I think guardians are the only real raid tanks.... I know that sounds horrible, and folks will get mad, blah blah blah, but those stats just don't lie.

Sil, start a new thread please. This would be good information for all and shouldn't get buried in the Juggernot flame-athon. :smileysurprised:

Silewen, you are just not making any sense at all. First you were saying that since LU13 Zerkers had become the best MT's in the game, making Guardians obsolete, and that all the uber raiding guilds were trading in their Guardian MT's for Zerker ones and that we needed to be nerfed because of that. I can go back and find the quote if I need to. And now you are saying the exact opposite, that Guardians are still the best and therefore the only real raid MT's in the game, implying that no other class in the game should even be considered for it. So why are you changing your story now?

People only get mad because you post anecdotal evidence like this. How is this pertinent information? If I see a paladin buffed to 6000 mitigation and 14k hp's does that mean paladins are a better tanking class? The stats don't prove a thing...only that you saw a nicely equipped and buffed up guardian. And there's no real point in trying to find a berserker with comparable equipment and buffs because we already know how the stats will compare. The guardian will have an advantage in health and avoidance through their group health and defense buffs, and berserkers have other advantages which we all know about.
Berserkers are perfectly capable of main tanking raids and need a useful juggernaut skill. Btw I played around with juggernaut in HoF last night and got plastered by heroic mobs. I let the brusier take over for one encounter...fired up rampage and open wounds...hit juggernaut, stole agro, and died instantly. Such a useful skill...

I read the post in regards to this. I honestly think the avoidance is a bug. The same person who started the post also mentions that his avoidance dropped by 30~% when he equiped a towershield. That doesn't make much sense to me. On another note: I suspect with the same setup, and the same AA spec a zerker would be at nearly the same avoidance. I'm only about 4% off our guardians, and thats because Guardians get a group defense buff. Give me a guardian in my group, and my avoidance is virtually the same, it all depends on +agi/defense/parry gear.

As for guardians being the one true tank. Its only partially true. Guardians are designed to raid tank, this is why their DPS suffers and you have oodles and oodles of Guardians complaining about their dps. Simply because those are solo & single group guardians. Any guardian that raid tanks knows thats where their role lies. Berserkers can easily sub in for Guardians against 95% of the encounters. Tower of stone is the only skill that makes the difference, imo.

This is all of course completely off the topic of Juggernaut. Balance the penaltys verse the rewards on this spell. Nothing else to say other then, since its all been said before.

Acoording to this thread: http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=4&message.id=20851&jump=true beserker get exactly the same great armor like guardians, so why should anyone complain?

Pull up the quote then, to you infernus, nobody makes sense unless they have the same opinion as you. I give consideration to your posts and comments, you on the other hand just attempt to devalue any conflicting argument. I did think in DoF that guardians had been knocked back to the same level as a berserker main-tank... but now I'm starting to see a reversal. To end this argument finally for all, we are going to need better tanks than me or you infernus. Does any tier 1 raiding guild use a berserker as their primary main-tank. If so, who? I'm not trying to devalue our class as a main-tank, but right now I think if you want to argue berserkers should be the same quality for main-tanking as a guardian, you need to get the threads rolling to SOE because it's my belief that a tier 1 raid guild would not roll out with a berserker as a main-tank.

"Berserkers are perfectly capable of main tanking raids and need a useful juggernaut skill."

I totally agree. And that is the whole point of this discussion that certain people seem to keep forgetting. In its current state Juggernaut is an utterly useless ability no matter what role you are trying to fill. The sparse few who claim to support it have not been able to post one shred of evidence that it is actually useful to anyone in any way whatsoever. No one has been able to prove that you can even use the spell at all in any other case except maybe while assisting another tank to clear easy trash mobs that don't have any AOEs. How anyone could possibly be happy with that for our new marquee ability is beyond me. It really seems like certain people only support it for the simple fact that it nerfs all of our defenses so that it cannot be used while tanking, not because it actually provides any considerable DPS at all. They don't seem to care about the fact that it doesn't do any good for them in the DPS role either, at least not in any case that it really matters and will probably only wind up getting them killed in most cases they try to use it. But they don't care because they are actually more happy about the penalties it comes with than any benefit it is supposed to provide just because they think it supports their arguement in some way. And they don't care that our class has to suffer for it.

"Pull up the quote then, to you infernus, nobody makes sense unless they have the same opinion as you"

Silewen said: "pre-lu13 Guardians were the premier raid tank for all uber guilds. Post LU-13, Berserkers filled that role. All those guardians have either quit, rerolled, or adapted. Berserkers now are in the role of guardians before the revamp, the undisputed king of raid tanking. Berserkers have the best DPS of all plate wearers, Berserkers are the Best Tank of all the Tanks."
Silewen said: "I think guardians are the only real raid tanks"
And you wonder why people think you don't make any sense.

"I did think in DoF that guardians had been knocked back to the same level as a berserker main-tank..."

That is NOT what you said. Re-read your own freaking posts.

"but now I'm starting to see a reversal."

Is that right? And where exactly do you see this? Where is it coming from? I really think it's all in your delusional mind. If not then please post some freaking facts to back up your claims here. Otherwise you are doing nothing here but making a total fool of yourself. It would also help if you would quit contradicting yourself over and over and figure out what exactly it is you believe before you post this mindless nonsense.

"To end this argument finally for all, we are going to need better tanks than me or you infernus."

How is that supposed to be an end to an arguement? You just keep egging it on. And you are completely out of your mind. You make all these wild claims and yet you have not one shred of evidence to back it up.

"I'm not trying to devalue our class as a main-tank"

That is EXACTLY what you have been trying to do here all along and you will not give up.

"it's my belief that a tier 1 raid guild would not roll out with a berserker as a main-tank."

I would really like to know what game you play because it is obviously not EQ2. How many more Berserkers in high-end raiding guilds do you need to have come here and tell you how good they are at their job? This is total BS.
Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-17-200606:15 PM

i made a spell comparative post on guardians vs berserkers, and it states what we all know guards tank a bit better(with a bit more raid friendly buffs/abilities) and zerkers do more dps. I wouldn't say thier added edge in tanking obsoletes a zerker, but they have the edge it's clear as day.

Now aa's that imo would set a tanking "warrior" apart from a dps/ utility warrior.

FYI

Silewen said: "pre-lu13 Guardians were the premier raid tank for all uber guilds. Post LU-13, Berserkers filled that role. All those guardians have either quit, rerolled, or adapted. Berserkers now are in the role of guardians before the revamp, the undisputed king of raid tanking. Berserkers have the best DPS of all plate wearers, Berserkers are the Best Tank of all the Tanks."
This is when I got fed up with your bull[expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] and was sarcastically asking the devs to nerf us, because according to you, we were Gods with our uber tanking and DPS skills

High-End Raiding guild doesn't = Tier 1.... Being able to kill God king does not = Tier1


MY PROOF FOR YOU IS AS FOLLOWS:

ETHEREAL LEGACY, FIRES OF HEAVEN, and NE PLUS ULTRA (Tier 1 raiding guilds)

if there are other guilds who believe they were tier1 in DoF and used a berserker for primary main-tank, please speak up, or find them for us infernus.