Thoughts on Juggernaut

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Kaleco, Feb 15, 2006.

  1. ARCHIVED-Sokolov Guest

    As a healer, I would like to say that more damage = more fun for us! Most non-raid/instanced boss encounters are pretty much trivial anyway.

    As for "level 65th level ancient spell," what I am starting to notice is that none of the 65 spells are what people want nor are any particularly good. Most classes are complaining about their level 65 spell. Maybe they aren't supposed to be good? lol
  2. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    KoS endgame zones aren't like Poet's Palace where the healer could fall asleep and nobody would notice. As a healer you will have a lot of fun in Halls of Fate :smileywink: well, if your tank doesn't use juggernaut because then you are dead.
    Mages get very cool new spells, eg fusion with up to 3 times 10k damage for wizzards or conjurors with plane shift, which is a pet buff similar to juggernaut, you just have to replace all decreases xy with increases xy. Fighter spells aren't that spectacular, maybe other fighter classes complain because their spells aren't as cool as the DoF ancients, but at least they can use their spells while playing in groups or solo, while our spells simply sucks and has no use in any situation relevant for a fighter.
  3. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    I think you missed the post where Aoenin has tanked every raid mob in DoF except the Djinn Master... he's not trying to adjust our class to not be tanks, but sees the writing on the wall. The 3 top guilds in EQ2 use guardians exclusively for main raid tanks and prolly even off tanks (might explain why NE Plus Ultra has 3 lvl70 guardians and 1 lvl68 berserker guilded).

    You have to realize there has been serious thoughts at SOE of changing the berserker class from what it currently is. Our juggernaut skill is proof of that. Pre-release KoS screenshots showing berserkers in leather and chain armor is hersay proof of that. I'm also sick of people acting like I don't know what I'm talking about. Infernus, pay for the upgrade to your account, I was the 32nd lvl22 berserker on Befallen. I chose my class on the original premise of the game, that guardians would be the supreme tanks and berserkers would be melee DPS. The game is in the condition it is now because they rushed to beat WoW to market... well guess what SOE, you won... lol, I guess if you consider 650k to 6000k hehe. Anyways, originally only vanguard was to be wore by guardians and we, along with pallies, sk's, and templar/inquistors, were supposed to wear plate... Rushed the game out though and plate never made it into the game... Anyways, I'm not going to try and argue the original intentions of the game, I'm just saying if you want to be a raid tank, and will have a big issue when an expansion or 2 down the road you won't be able to be a raid tank because you become alt-tanks/dps, then you need to go ahead and level up a guardian.

    If you talk to anybody who has played fantasy MMOs, and said, by name alone which sounds like it will be a main-tank, berserker or guardian... I could practically guarantee every person would say, sounds like the guardian is the raid-tank class... So when a guardian selects their class at creation, they know, he i'm going to be nothing but a tank... but when somebody selects their berserker at creation, their thinking, hey I'm going to be one crazy mother fooker in battle. SOE wants everybody to be able to have fun, and if their going to pick one of the 2 warrior classes and give them more versatility on raids from the tank role, it's definitely not going to be guardians.

    I also want to add finally, nobody knows how juggernaut is going to be once we are lvl70 and full AAs, spec'd for DPS. If I'm criting thru my open wounds, destruction, and with my AGI AA frontal AOE, plus my double attack from STA.... 36 seconds could be litterally 40-100k dmg. That isn't no joke, that's no exaggeration hell I can't wait to see numbers when people are actually there... in 36 seconds, ****, you could of done 200k. There is no rules that say you can't use all those at once, and with your other inherent crit buffs, crit buff weapons and armor, dps increases from group members, you could litteraly be hitting for 1,000s on every single art, AOE, etc. on a raid... if you're not the tank.
  4. ARCHIVED-Epyx Guest

    The Overlord Commands everyone to shove thier stupid ego's to the door, i'm pretty sure Antonia Bayle would think the same too.

    If all the wanna be zerker scouts want to make a new thread and talk about how with Open Wounds+Rampage+Vouge+Dirge in Group+ Berserk Proc going Off+ Legs that Add DPS+ Crafted Ring that Gives DPS while in offensive stance talk about how they can be dps for 3mins, because thier Pally who has amends on super crazy warlock has super aggro... Go ahead. Oh wait... since that happens, you can just cast juggernaut and do immeasurable DPS for another 24seconds... well i guess juggernaut is just that dandy.

    Get over yourselves, stop playing with the ruler to squeeze off an extra half an inch, and please can we get back to talking about juggernaut.
  5. ARCHIVED-infernus006 Guest

    Aonien,

    "its people like you who cant see we can fulfill other roles other then tank that are Guardian wannabe's infernus006."

    You can argue about it all you want. It doesn't matter. Because at the end of the day I'm the one that's happy with my class and you are not. End of story. Now who is the wannabe? If someone made a Fury only to DPS wouldn't you call them a DPS wannabe? If someone made a Pally to do nothing but heal, wouldn't you call them a healer wannabe? If someone made a Brigand to be a main tank, wouldn't you call them a tank wannabe? Think about that for a second and then tell me why our class is so special that it sits completey outside of its archetype and is not required to follow the same rules that everyone else in the game is. It seems like you would be better off playing a classless MMO like Ultima Online that lets you be pretty much whatever you want because you choose what abilities you want as you go and you are not restricted to one certain job with a certain set of abilites that you can't really deviate from like you are in this game. Ever consider that?

    "You just simply have no idea how well other classes can tank infernus006 and you neglect to even look for it"

    And you are brainwashed by your guildmates who think that Zerkers shouldn't be tanking at all. Which doesn't make any sense at all when you look at our abilities. FYI, everyone I talk to thinks that Crusaders make better support tanks and Warriors (including Zerkers) are the best main tanks. I even know a few people who think that Zerkers are the best main tanks in the game and are even better than Guardians in most cases. I guess it's just a matter of opinion though. But the botton line is that a Zerker can tank just as well as any Guardian if he puts his mind to it while on the other hand it doesn't matter what gear you wear or what combination of spells you use your DPS will never be on par with any of the true DPS class in this game no matter how hard you try to make it that way. You, my friend, are in a losing battle.

    "hell ANY decent raid Zerker who knows how other classes work will tell you right here right now, that Guardians in raids are the better tank"

    I don't think so. No decent Zerker is going to agree that Guardains are better tanks than them in every situation. In some situations, yes, I can see them being a tad better. But not every situation. I'm really not sure why you are so stuck on the idea of Guardians being the only viable tank for raids in this game. SOE has already made it clear that they don't want it that way. Why not just accept it and be happy about it? They did us a favor by nerfing Guardians and allowing us to really shine in the MT role since we will never be able to do that in any kind of a support role. Face it, Zerkers are just not meant to fill a support role. It goes against our nature. That's why they made us into a tank. So that we would be able to get in the mobs' faces and go all out and do some damage without having to worry being careful not to steal aggro and getting hurt too much. Because that is not what being a Zerker is about. We are meant to be a strong, offensive tanking class. Like it or leave it.

    "if you cant accept that infernus006, get ready my friend, because as time moves on into more expasions and new Achievement Abilitys come out, you will find that Guardians will only get better."

    You have no idea what you are talking about. Are you a fortune teller now? I think you are living in a dream world where SOE will totally change the core fuction of a class from being an offensive plate tank to a pure DPS after people have been playing it for over a year as a tank like they are supposed to just because you don't like it that way. Do you think they are going to change Furies into more of a DPS class than a Healer as time goes on as well? No, they will never do that. Do you really think that they will change this class so it has more DPS than a Brawler and less tanking ability than them too just like a scout just because that's what you want? Get real. It's never going to happen. And if by chance it does then I will be forced to either quit the game or reroll to another class if I want to keep playing. Because that is not the reason why a rolled my Zerker.

    "Its like you feel your class is doomed and you feel like your jeapordizing the only postion you know how to fulfill"

    Wow, I'm really not sure where you are pulling these weird ideas out of. Not sure I want to know either. How many times do I have to say that I am happy with everything about this class the way it is right now? Except for that one new spell of course. So I want the new spell changed into something that's a lot better for us as do most other Zerkers. Once again that is the whole point of this thread which you seem to keep missing. I am tired of telling you that this thread is not supposed to be about the old tank vs dps argument but you just keep bringing it up anyway. You are doing nothing here but trying to hijack this thread and derail it by changing the subject and start unneccessary arguements with people you know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well will never agree with your chosen playstyle. You, sir, are nothing but a trouble-maker here and have nothing productive to add to this discussion. You refuse to post even one parse to prove your claim that this Juggernaut ability is worth anything and you just flame everyone who wants the spell to be changed because they don't see any value in it and you treat them like they are stupid because they can't figure it out. But the truth is there is no situation where this spell is really that useful and you just don't want to admit it and you won't post any parses because if you did then you would just wind up proving yourself wrong. Because you are so blind that you actually think the tiny faction of extra DPS you are getting from Juggernaut is worth the huge penalties it comes with because that's how desperate for more DPS you are and that is really sad because it just goes to show how unhappy you really are with this class.

    "if you didnt put yourself into the stereotype of what everyone thinks you should be, you wouldnt be in this postion to begin with."


    I am HAPPY with my posistion. What do you not understand about that? I play the game the way I want to every day and I am happy with it because unlike you I made the right choices for myself. Unlike you I am not constantly struggling to try and fill a role that my class was not made for and failing miserably at it. That is not my idea of fun. If I had wanted to play a DPS class then I would have rolled a DPS class. And I am glad that I did not roll a DPS class because I have no interest in filling that role. I like being a tank and I am good at my job. I have the tools and the skills that I need in order to get the job done and to gain the respect of my peers in this posistion. And you do not because you are playing the wrong class for the wrong reasons. Why can't you just accept that and move on? If you are really happy in that posistion though then you have nothing to complain about then do you? And having the Juggernaut spell revamped so that it's something useful for everyone who plays this class is not going to kill you either since (by your own admission) it doesn't do that much for your DPS as it is.

    "You like many others here infernus006 are the types of people who wont let others tank on raids simply because you would fear them taking your " pole postion "

    I really don't know where you get these crazy ideas. Any time I am grouped with another tank and they are a higher level and/or have better gear than me then I expect them to be the main tank, not me. When have I ever said anything to indicate otherwise? NEVER. I think it's really sad that you have to resort to blatent lies to try and discredit me. It's true that I will try to avoid grouping with other tanks unless it is absolutely necessary because they might be a threat to my "pole posistion" as you call it because that is how I make my living. And one of us will inevidably wind up being little more than extra baggage for the rest of the group to drag along. It's not that I will never let another tank have the MT spot in my groups though, that is totally untrue. I let the other group members decide who they want to be their MT in most cases actually. I just don't enjoy being stuck in a support role because I know [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] well that I am not very good at that and I don't have fun that way either. Of course you wouldn't understand because you live in a sheltered guild where everyone holds your hand through everything so you have no understanding of how things actually work in the "real world". I take it you never have to go LFG. Try it once just for S&G and see how many tells you get to be a F'ing DPS. Nine times out of ten you will be called upon to tank. And to do the job right in these tough new KoS instance zones you will need every ounce of tanking ability that you can muster, believe me. And I dare you to try using Juggernaut once and see how fast you get booted out of the group. Hell I dare you to try using it in HoF with someone else tanking and see how many times you get one-shotted by the AOEs just like the casters do when they stand too close to the mobs in there. Have fun!

    "because thats the type of person you are"


    You don't even know me at all. Just who the hell do you think you are anyway?

    "you need to try and prove something that has been proved so many times i cannot remember since the game was released."


    I already told you that I have nothing at all to prove to you or anyone else as far as my personal playstyle goes. I do what is best for me to get the most enjoyment out of the game and I can honestly say that I am sucessful at it. You are free to do the same. Please do whatever it is you need to do in order to have fun playing the game. And good luck to you no matter what your choices may be. Just don't come here and whine because you are having problems filling a role that your class was never made for. And if you're saying it's already been proven that we are meant to be tanks after all then why do you keep on arguing about it? Just to start trouble, that's why, and to get us away from the main topic which is that Juggernaut is a useless ability that needs to be changed for the betterment of our class overall.

    "Because it gives us some little added extra DPS when in a Offtank role."

    So then you admit that the extra DPS from Juggernaut is not all that great. How can you deny the fact that the penalties on it are far too harsh compared to any of the benefit that it's supposed to be able to provide and it's way too situational to be of any real use to anyone in any situation? That is why we are complaining about it so much. It's not something you can use any time you want whenever it's up and even if you do manage to get it off at just the right time it still doesn't do that much for you. And then it can easily get you killed in a heartbeat. The benefit it provides is very small while the pelanties are extremely harsh. It's clear to see that the spell is extremely borked and it badly needs to be fixed so it can actually be of some use. And I already told you I don't have any problem with them giving us a new ability that makes us more usefull in the offtank role. I am all for that. But I want it to be something that can actually be used and is worth using. I can't say that is true for Juggernaut in any case right now and neither can you.

    "Like i said, i Demolished a mob for 2100 dmg the other night and the mob wasnt even fully debuffed"


    And you think Juggernaut did that all by itself? How much of that damage do you think came from Juggernaut alone? That's what I want to know. How much extra DPS does Juggernaut actually give us, not just how much total damage we can do with it on.

    "One last thing, please stop trying to force your playstyles onto others"

    How many times do I have to tell you that I do not care how you choose to play the game? How many times do I have to say that I only have a problem with people like you when you come here and try to get our class changed so that we will be forced to play the way you want? Seriously. I already said if you are happy being nothing more than a DPS-wannabe in your raids then good for you. No one is trying to stop you if that's all you want. The problem though is that you are not happy because you want more DPS and you don't have it and you're never going to get it with this class because it's made to be more of a tank than a DPS. And you still cannot deny that fact. And you still come to these forums just to cry about it. Why do I have to keep repeating myself to you over and over? You have nothing to show us to prove that any of your claims are valid in any way. You expect everyone to just take your word for everything. And your whining does nothing but further prove that you are playing the wrong class, if not the wrong game.

    Silewen,

    "Also wanted to add that shadowknights and paladins have alot of additional utility out of the tank position role, so not fair to compare a berserker not wanting to be a tank to a pally or sk."

    How is that not fair? That just goes to show that they were made to be better support tanks than us. Hence my point that they are not intended to be better main tanks. And do you think that Juggernaut makes us just as good of support tanks as them now? No it does not. So why not change it to something that does? That's all I'm asking for. Something that WORKS and is WORTH using.

    "Pre-release KoS screenshots showing berserkers in leather and chain armor is hersay proof of that"

    That is BS. Those people that were shown in the bearskin hats were Druids and Shaman, just like I was saying all along. Certain people saw the bearskin hat and automatically assoicated it with a Berserker based off nothing more than that. Which makes no sense at all since our class has always been a plate-wearing class in this game. In any case it was a false assumption. There was never anything official that actually said that those characters they showed wearing the chain/leather armor and the bearskin hat were Berserkers at all. Some people just assumed that they were with no real evidence to back it up and started spreading that rumor around and as it turns they were dead wrong. Our profession hat is a heavy plate armor helmet that has over 500 mitigation, +200 to every resist, and +4 defense skill. A tanking helmet. You get that? Our PROFESSION hat is a TANKING helmet. And don't forget that our new class description also tells us that our job is to keep aggro away from our friends. What more do you need to spell it out for you?

    "I chose my class on the original premise of the game, that guardians would be the supreme tanks and berserkers would be melee DPS."

    You made a mistake, plain and simple. You failed to do the proper research on the class before you chose it. You can blame SOE if you want to, maybe they didn't do a good enough job of explaining the base purpose of each class when they released the game. I won't argue with that. But it was still your mistake either way because the information was out there, you just didn't bother to check it out. And then you didn't bother to correct your mistake before it was too late, which is even worse. Why didn't you realize it when you were still in your early 20s, when you first became a true Berserker? Didn't you find it a bit strange that you got a bunch of taunts and the ability to wear plate armor and some defense buffs instead of any real high damage attacks if your sole purpose was to be a melee DPS? I mean come on. That is just blatent negligence on your part and you have no one to blame for that but yourself. And it really is quite inexcusable. And then you come here and flail it around right in front of god and everyone and rub it in people's faces and then wonder why people think you're a moron...

    "Anyways, originally only vanguard was to be wore by guardians and we, along with pallies, sk's, and templar/inquistors, were supposed to wear plate... Rushed the game out though and plate never made it into the game..."


    Why do you assume that was a rushed decision? Maybe they just decided that they didn't want only one class in the game to be the only class that was able to wear the best armor in the game. Because that would be pretty silly.

    "I'm just saying if you want to be a raid tank...then you need to go ahead and level up a guardian."

    But that's the whole problem with your thinking. That only Guardians should be main tanks and if you want to play an MT then you have no other choice but to be a Guardian. And that is not the case at all and nor should it be. There are many different fighter classes to choose from that can all be a good main tank if they really want to be. I'm really not sure why you have such a huge problem with that.

    "If you talk to anybody who has played fantasy MMOs, and said, by name alone which sounds like it will be a main-tank, berserker or guardian... I could practically guarantee every person would say, sounds like the guardian is the raid-tank class..."


    But thats your whole problem right there. You chose this class by it's name alone and failed to do any research on it to see what it actually was before you chose it. You only chose it for the name and nothing else and you failed to realize the whole time you were leveling it up that SOE made it to be a tank class instead of a DPS in this game and that is never what you wanted so now you are unhappy. Who do you have to blame for that but yourself?

    "SOE wants everybody to be able to have fun, and if their going to pick one of the 2 warrior classes and give them more versatility on raids from the tank role, it's definitely not going to be guardians."


    I'm not saying that we don't have at least slightly more versatility than Guardians. We do have more DPS than them and we always will. That's why I chose this class. Because I didn't want to be a purly defensive tank that couldn't hardly do any damage at all. I wanted to be a tank that could do damage as well as tank *at the same time* and that's exactly what I got. And needless to say I don't like the idea of having it changed into something totally different.

    "If I'm criting thru my open wounds, destruction, and with my AGI AA frontal AOE, plus my double attack from STA.... 36 seconds could be litterally 40-100k dmg. That isn't no joke, that's no exaggeration hell I can't wait to see numbers when people are actually there... "


    But then you would need to have all of those spells up at the same time and be Berserk to get Juggernaut to go off and then pray you don't get aggro from it. Not my idea of fun. I really don't see the spell being very useful in that manner at all.

    "with your other inherent crit buffs, crit buff weapons and armor, dps increases from group members, you could litteraly be hitting for 1,000s on every single art, AOE, etc. on a raid... if you're not the tank."

    Even if that is true how often do you think you would be able to pull that off? Would it be enough to matter? I seriously doubt it. I seriously want you to get to 65 and scribe this spell and try it out exactly the way you said and and take some parses and show them here on the forum and then try to tell us it's well worth the huge penalties it comes with. Because I can tell you already it's not going to be, even from a DPS standpoint. I also want to know how you plan to survive any AOEs with Juggernaut on or actually get it to work at all while jousting. And don't forget about the reuse timer it has so it's not like it can be used that often anyway. So if you think that this spell is really going to make us that uber of a DPS then I want to see some proof of it. Because I really don't see how that's possible. And I also want you to try using it without Open Wounds and Rampage on to see how much good it does all by itself otherwise there is no real point to it. If you actually need to have Open Wounds and Rampage stacked in order for it to do anything that is really messed up. Rampage and Open Wounds are already pretty uber damage spells all on their own and they don't come with any penalties at all. We don't need to cast Juggernaut and eviscerate ourselves to get good damage with both of those spells on as it is. That is the whole point here that you keep missing. That by itself, on it's own, Juggernaut is not worth a fart in the wind. And I think we deserve something a lot better than that for our new T7 marquee ability.
    Message Edited by infernus006 on 03-15-200607:05 PM
  6. ARCHIVED-FightGame Guest

    Geez people. I'm sick of the back and forth crap between you. It's making me want to not bother coming here to read anything, becauase there's rarely any useful info. It's Infernous tearing people's threads apart and responding to every sentence everyone has said, then they respond with the same crap. You guys should just bicker back and forth in pm's because I doubt there's many that read through all the bs, and the ones that do, don't gain anything useful, and probably don't want to voice their opinion in fear of having their post torn up and laughed at but someone.

    Why can't we all just play the character we created the way we want to. If I want to keep the leather and cloth on my zerker, with high inteligence, and while I'm tanking on raids, do nothing but run around casting intercede on the casters, THEN I CAN. lol

    And if anyone think's that the class should be changed in one way or another, it's their right to voice their opinion, to sony. No sense in doing it here, because 99% of the people here seem to like the class the way it is, and complaining here will get you no where. If sony gets enough votes to change the class MAYBE they will. But I doubt they will get enough votes.

    I love playing my berserker, the only thing IMO that needs changed is the jaugernaut ability.

    I would hate it if sony heard enough from the haters, and had our class changed, but I agree more, that it is each person's right to voice their opinion. Just like I can complain about how some other class should be changed, because there's a huge problem in their AA tree, that allows them to crit 100% of the time.

    If you want to voice your opinion, let's not use other people's names, and start a flame thread. Simply give your opinion on your experience. Just because your experience and opinion isn't the same as someone else's, doesn't mean an agruement must be started/finished.

    Respect others' opinions and move on. please.
    Message Edited by FightGame on 03-15-200602:27 PM
  7. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Well folks, infernus will never give up trying to prove his case, as evidenced by his 5 page monologue, and I'm sick of the personal attacks. I could careless what anybody thinks on how I have decided and wish to play my class, for me I at least have a long list of experience and qualifications to backup myself. People who haven't played MMOs extensively honestly shouldn't even be allowed to argue points on their forums. Their posts shows their lack of understanding and the knowledge of exactly how MMOs shape and change. But it's ok, I've said this before and will say it again, Infernus please quiet down, grown ups are talking now.
    Message Edited by Silelwen on 03-16-200604:41 AM
  8. ARCHIVED-Aonach Guest

    Takes 2 people to argue, well in this case it seems to be three.

    If infernous and others want to think that a plate wearing, same branch as a guardian warrior, with no heals and no utility spells is a tank then thats up to them.

    If others want to think that a plate wearing, same branch as a guardian warrior, with no heals and no utility spells is a DPS class then thats up to them.

    I know what side of the fence I and everyone I know sits on. Continually flooding a thread with the same rehashed arguement does seem a little lame to me though. Don't you think?
  9. ARCHIVED--Aonein- Guest

    Hehehe, very well said and is exactally what i was speaking about a few pages back about how people dont see threw the forest through the trees.
    Anyways, on a much lighter note which people also seem to just sweep under the table, lets add this to the picture, 30% faster recovery timers......not to mention wait until some of you see our Relic armor, im going to laugh so hard when you Zerker wannabe Guardians come here crying on the boards about it lol, cant wait for that show.
    Basically ill say this much so i dont spoil the "surprise", you can get Demolish down to a 19 second recast timer hehehe, ohhhh boy i cannot wait, thats if of course you go the INT line and get the 30% faster recovery timers as well.....
    Message Edited by -Aonein- on 03-17-200612:44 AM
  10. ARCHIVED-KhayosAD Guest

    I really wish a dev would look at Juggernaut. I DPS (Raid and Group) & MT (Raid and Group) and this skill doesn't even make it onto my hotbar.

    Next Wizzie I hear say "here comes the FUSION bomb" I'm going to throw out a very high window.
  11. ARCHIVED-Halcat Guest

    Infernus, Aonein, and Silelwen,
    None of you have posted anything usefull in this thread in the last 6 pages. The only thing you have done is go back and forth at each other and try to tear each other apart. Do yourselves a favor, go make char's on the PvP server and go at it, but leave this thread and every other usefull thread in the berseker section alone unless you have something useful to post, because I'm about ready to tell you to just [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].
    What should have been a thread about one CA has turned into nothing more then a [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] fest. I'm at the point now that I really don't care if Juggernaut gets fixed or not. I have had enough of hearing the three of you talk usless crap to each other. This is the reason why I don't visit or post much on these forums. The threads are filled with nothing but people trying to prove the other wrong about every little thing they post instead of concentrating on the issue. It's pathetic and I hope the mods lock the post up quick.
    Infernus, I agreed with you that Jugggernaut was usless to the majority of the berserkers in the game even though I come from a raiding guild and there are times when I am not tanking. I agreed that this combat art needed to be changed so the majority of the berseker community would have a useful CA, instead of just a handfull of berserkers that belong to raiding guilds. However, I don't agree with how you attack people and the tactics you use in trying to get something fixed. I am not perfect, and I can get passionate about an issue I believe in and I can sometimes let my emotions run ahead of my thoughts, but you take this to the extreem.
    Aonein, I don't know what your problem is. You came here claiming that Juggernaut can be used and that it is a good CA, but you have yet to prove it. You have instead called people names and put them down because they fail to see your claims. You have pretty much agreed that this CA is usless to the majority of the berseker community, however, it should be left the way it is because the handfull of people in raiding guilds can use it when they aren't tanking. I'm sorry, but this is selfish and wrong. A CA should not cater to the minority of a class. It should be usefull to almost anyone that plays the class and should provide a benefit to the class under most circumstances. If you fail to see that Juggernaut does none of this and IF you instead decide to attack me for being blunt with you, all I can say is you need that you need to grow up and open your eyes.
    I have downloaded 2 different parsers and I am learning to use them so that I can get the hard numbers on exactly how benefical Juggernaut is. I know what I see when I use it and I am very far from being impressed. This is besides the fact, that it is useless to anyone who is tanking and therefore is usless to the majority of berserkers. However, I do want to be able to prove it with the exact numbers, so that nobody will be able to dispute my findings. I will post the numbers, when I have them, in a new thread, because anything that was beneficial in this thread has been drowned out by the garbage. I would love to see any berserkers that know how to use parsers and have the oppertunity to try out Juggernaut, including the people who claim this CA is great, to post their numbers, both using it and without using it, so we can all see the comparrison.
  12. ARCHIVED-Halcat Guest

    All of Silelwen's post is just speculation and can go one way as easy as it can go the other. Nobody knows what the numbers will be with full AA spec and nobody probably will know for awhile.

    And again Aonein, you are assuming all berserkers will and should spec the same way you do. Again, you are speaking for the minority of the bersekers who have DPS roles in raiding guild, not the vast majority who don't even belong to raiding guilds.

    I will not be going the INT line. I will be going the AGI and Wis lines for the extra mit and defense. This suits the role I play in my raiding guild. Your role is different and that's fine, but neither of us is in the majority as most berserkers do not belong to raiding guilds period. Most of them will never own a piece of relic armor and some of them will never even see it except in pictures on the forums. So, to sit there and say that Juggernaut is going to be great because of one thing or another that the majority of berserkers will never do or posess is wrong. Again a CA should not benefit the minority of a class and then only in certain situations.

    I'm very happy you and Silelwen have found a good use for Juggernaut, but the fact of the matter is that most berzerkers have not, and it's not because they are noobs, as you so politely put it. It is because they play their char's different then yours.
  13. ARCHIVED-Bremer Guest

    Nachricht bearbeitet von Bremer am 03-16-200607:39 PM
  14. ARCHIVED-Montaigu Guest

    Siliwen and Aeonin, (Edited this message after reading the rest to the posts on page 10)

    You two are completely lost. If I could I would have the two of you drug tested, either that, or the two of you have severe brain damage.

    Siliwen, if you cannot understand that we (Berserkers) and Guardians are a subclass of the same main class, then you really need help. What does that mean? Well it for one, certainly means that we are NOT a DPS class. Probably means that we are very similiar to Guardians with subtle difference. YOU obviously roled the wrong class and need to reroll a SCOUT class. Hmmm. I wonder how this happened? With all your EXTENSIVE knowledge from playing multiple MMOs, how did one such as yourself make such a grevious mistake? Guess you never realized in all your years of playing MMOs that scout mage classes are usually the Damage Dealers and that Plate Warrior classes are the Tanks.

    Secondly, (Aeonin), with all your Bull@# tt, talk of seeing the trees thru the forest, you are actually the one who cannot see them. For you too, think that Berserkers are a DPS class. Let me tell you they are not. We do not fill duel roles. Unless you consider being a superb tank, and a half [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] DPS filling duel roles. I dont!

    Lastly, in response to cries that Infernous was doing personal attacks on you, they werent. You posted your point of view on this discussion and as incorrect and asinine as they were, you are entitled to that, And the rest of us, are just as entitled to respond to those view points to ensure the rest of the masses understand how wrong you two are.
    Message Edited by Montaigu on 03-16-200601:11 PM
  15. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    I fully understand that berserkers are very capable raid tanks, my raid tank is a berserker himself and does quite awesome at the job. I only brought that up because people we're calling us dps wannabe's, talking about why would anybody want to bring along a half-@$$ed DPS like myself. Then it hit me, why do all these 'uber guilds' choose guardians. I really really do believe that down the road things will be different for our class, but that just comes from past experience and then isn't today so I shouldn't continue to argue that point.

    I do understand the mechanic's behind crits, and I understand how many times we swing our weapon, use our CAs and don't hit nowhere near our maxxes... for 36 seconds if we are using all our godly DPS spells, and we are hitting the maxxes at the same time. Yes I believe that will be crazy. I know some of you have been talking about pulling agro, but there are alot of MT class groups that have AAs that further increase the MT's hate gain, there is also the fact that you could time stuff to happen once your MT has a very firm grasp on hate. Remembering that using a bunch of high dmg art's aren't going to make you pull aggro, just if your hate number ever gets over your MTs hate on the mob so the longer you wait in the fight to unleash hell, the better your chances of survival are. I prefer to wait and see how the MT group's AAs flesh out. I dont think we will be doing that insane of dmg with all the hate buffs, hate reducer skills that are being added.
  16. ARCHIVED-Asmadai Guest

    Maybe i'm just very optimistic, but why can't it be summed up as:

    I am a Berserker. I'm a tank, albeit not as good of a tank as a Guardian, but I can do more damage than they can.

    Why must it be either: "I suck at tanking, we are DPS" or "I suck at DPS, we are tanks".

    I mean, when it comes to discussing our tanking ability, we are compared with Guardians. What is it that we are being compared to when discussing damage? If it isn't Guardians, it isn't a valid comparison.
    Message Edited by Asmadai on 03-16-200612:36 PM
  17. ARCHIVED-Epyx Guest

    i have jugg adept3 made i'll post my thoughts on it soon, the times i can use it(it would basically only be when i tank, or MA in raids) and i'll post how many times my healers skip a beat when i go from full health to red in a second.
  18. ARCHIVED-Montaigu Guest

    And you would be correct Asmadai,
    Except for the fact that Taemek and Siliwen think that we are both tanks and DPS, ie the Duel Role Concept.
    Which is NOT the case.
  19. ARCHIVED-Asmadai Guest

    Well I mean, I think we are both as well, but we are as I stated it.

    To compare our tanking to Guardians, in which we are lesser than, only to compare our DPS to a Scout/Mage class would be invalid.

    We can tank, that is a given, albeit not as well as a Guardian, however, we do more damage than them. Fair trade in my eyes, but then again people will always complain about their classes. It's the way of the world.
  20. ARCHIVED-Silelwen Guest

    Yep, I fully recognize us as being tanks, but I don't want my class defined only by it's tanking ability. I know that is asking alot, but I believe a well played berserker can at least bring some DPS to the table, albeit not as well as a scout or mage class, but [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] it, I want people to have me on a raid for more than just being the raid tank or a possible alt-tank. Really my entire argument boils down to wanting to be able to raid, without being the main tank. And as berserkers, I feel comfortable saying we can do it, especially with our tier7 upgrades and AAs. I do not want myself to be spec'd out with my AAs to be a main-tank replacement, I want to be confident that my main tank is going to be there... and well if I ever needed to respec my class and AAs... I still have reforming stones, and I'll always be able to afford the AA respec costs even after doing it the 5 or 6 times where it's a few platties.

    I'm going to test out my juggernaut today or tomorrow, and I'll try to do so as a group tank and in a group that already has a tank.

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