The tank problem.

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by Wgrace, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. Gillymann Abusive Relationships Aren't Healthy. J S.

    Well, I'll give you the short story version from this tank:

    Good tanks are generally a small portion of the total population in any game. So are healers really.

    I like tanking, but I stopped playing because the game was no longer fun for me to play. All you guys are seeing is a natural progression of the ratio of tanks to dps as the game population continues to fall.

    Throw in shamans and now anyone can tank, especially since peeps are lobbing ascensions all over the place while taunts haven't scaled well.

    TLDR: Tanks are hard to find, because more tanks aren't playing, and more tanks aren't playing because the game is not fun to tank anymore.

    It has little to do with fight ing with dps. That happens in every game. It has everything to do an unenjoyable tanking experience due to game design.
    Tekka likes this.
  2. Tupperbeast Active Member

    In Planes of Prophecy, tank play is much better than in Kunark Ascending.
    The only thing that is essential you have to deal with your char what many just do not do his spells study or his AA or what makes Special. Therefore, there will always be differences between good and less good players.
    Not only is it possible to level a char at max level or just go to raids, I know a lot of tanks but the raid players are worse off than those who do not. Everyone should understand sometimes by itself nothing comes and the game is a process with many staggering in gear and can and what the mechanic to this is called scripts.
    In the end it is like in any game the player decides how good his char is, you can not copy other players their AA or their mechanic as they play. He'll ask you why everyone just plays differently, and everyone has a different style to go with it, the mix of that makes it and how you then play your character out of it.
    And even as a beginner you should not play tank or healer if you have no practice in the game and the mechanic around it.
    Start with a DD and as a second Char make a healer or a tank later and try to get to know the scripts from the Solo Zones and get the Gear first, then move on to the Heroic Zones, even in Planes of Prophecy
    again Mastercraft gear sense.
    For cast orders or small help, it is always worthwhile to use Advance Combart Tracker. There you can read small things very easily, besides it is also possible to practice on the training doll to see which spell has which cooldown.
    At the tank learn your specials like protection for group or your own protection and defense spells, lots of new tanks just run without them in the mob or name and die fast and mean the healer has penned what's not the case because every tank has its AA
    or in his Spell books specials for keeping yourself up for a while.
    I've been playing Tank for more than 12 years including SK-Pala-Bersi and DD's BL-Necro.
    I'm still from the old tank school where also look around and play fast tab to it, although I spent the first 5 years of it but more on the PVP server than with PVE but the conversion was no problem for me.
    Rather, it was the transition until the chars fit and you then had the practice in what you do.
  3. Ogdinmar Active Member

    As a long time tank and a person who love being a tank, I have to agree I am growing less fond of wanting to tank in this game. This is primarily due to, tanking isnt fun here anymore and has been increasingly less fun with every xpac. I didn't like tanking when it was faceroller either.

    I like the challenge of tanking but its gotten to the point that we are not here to do that job anymore. It feels more and more like tanks are just supposed to be a t4 dps class. Not that tanks shouldn't do dps but rather our job is to cycle taunts, stoneskins and saves, while controlling the encounter and doing damage. Now it seems like its spec and gear as a dps class, throw as much damage as you can because taunts are a joke. The only thing good about my taunts now is that they do damage, which is why they get cast. I am doing pretty good this xpac but honestly I'm losing my will to want to continue as a tank. I love the new content but I feel like tanks are not progressing well comparatively to the other classes and its hurting the tank population.
  4. Tupperbeast Active Member


    Well not all tanks really make Dps think of a Sk or Zerker will not come over for now, but unfortunately we are also in the problem because there is still missing the class balance to other tanks that simply miss this damage.




    Otherwise, all tanks thanks to the potency are now able to hold against Dps classes without problems Aggro, finally, it makes the player from how good he can play his character and control him in certain situations.
    In addition, Dps in this sense is not a disadvantage but helps you rum again at Aggro and to put because mob faster, but as I said Daybreak at work is the whole now gone what Eq2 was and its classes balance and the whole
    around.
  5. Wgrace Active Member

    Of course that would never ever come to EQ2 haha, but wouldn't that be something.
  6. Wgrace Active Member


    /who all 110 fighter (antonia bayle): 2 Players found.
    Paladin.
    Paladin.

    hahahahahahaha.

    To be fair though, /who all 110 returns 13 players.
  7. Mathafern Well-Known Member

    No, seriously, what tank problem?

    I sympathize with those having a bad experience, but personally I'm having a blast. No doubt, you need to be as well geared as your group... or better geared. But the pain in the encounters is script pain not tank pain. That's great, it means the entire group needs to work rather than just the tank.

    I'm not saying it wouldn't be unpleasant to start a new tank this morning and try to run instances by this evening. It would. But the issues, at least with this expansion, are the ones you'd expect- you need to care for and feed your tank, just like the tank needs to care for and feed his group. Get everyone geared up, and things work well. If there's a weak link there will be pain.

    If you're struggling, go run the solos, learn the strats, get some gear, and come back to it.
  8. dirgenoobforreal Well-Known Member

    The max amount of fighters at 110 ive seen on halls of fate, one of the bigger eq2 servers, was 17 at 8 pm. 17 fighters in the entire game at prime time... Good luck for anyone without a guild.

    This game needs a cross server LFG tool. Adding death touch in a game with less than 10,000 players is such a dumb idea I cant even begin to fanthom why they would do it without adding a tool for players to find groups without spamming LFG for hours.

    No it didnt ruin wow as they claim, it made wow content accessable to millions upon millions of players.
  9. Carynn Well-Known Member

    A simple-to-implement band-aid would be to fix the taunt spells to counter ascension dps. It is known the max number damage any spell can do; make the Threat Increase be higher than that number. If the tanks can't keep aggro because they don't have the mechanics to do it, there is no use for a tank.

    Come to Fallen Gate. Tanks are needed and wanted for grouping, and it's content that can actually be tanked. FG will only be around until roughly next November/December, so it's a limited engagement.
  10. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    yes of course, it's 'anecdotal' never mind the numerous posts and threads about people complaining about the PG grind and dozens claiming that they won't do it no matter what the rewards. the hundreds of 'get rid of the stupid PG' threads. that seems to me to show a considerable portion has no interest in the PGs, no matter the rewards in it.

    I'm not the only person I know that has barely any PG gear, that never got thier ethereal, and does just fine without them. I'm just the only 'tank' I know, since, go figure, you really only need 1 in groups, and at best 2 in a raid.

    So then allow me to try to be less 'anecdotal'. I am/was the OT for our raid force. the MT is the min/maxer type like you seem to think the vast majority of the playerbase is. there's nothing he can tank, that I can't, unless the script specifically calls for a tank type, ala Order and Chaos. cause I'm been the MT when he ain't there. and we've killed things that we DIDN'T kill when he was there. so it's not like we were barely scraping by with your 'only 25% effective' tank.

    sure it's what you consider anecdotal. because as a tank, I don't often group with other tanks. kinda not needed. but I've grouped with others and that mixed bag has people that practically live in the PGs, and others that wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pool. Gear isn't want makes you 'effective' it's how well you can play the class.

    the entire problem with tanking had nothing to do with PG runes, or Ethereal runes. about the only complaint in there is having to get the Epic, that has a leg to stand on. it's not about the fun factor. most that play a tank play it to be a tank. to be the meatshield. not to be a pseudo-dps, or a back-up healer.

    and tanks just were not required. a brigand could tank just as good as my paladin could. so could a necro or a conjy or an illy. and my poor dps or backup healing isn't enough to entice people to want to bring along a tank, when they can take another assassin, wizard, conjy, what have you.

    tanks did get to be brought to raids,cause hey are required. tanks got to do experts, until the aforementioned DPS/Tank combos were geared enough, then we got kicked to the curb again. becuase we just had nothing to bring that made a group need us.

    so what are you going to give me? are you going to unnerf reckless? we saw the shitstorm that caused when Tanks coudl actually DPS. the dps classes hit he damn ceiling seeing what a 'Reckless' Zerker or SK could do. give me more utility? adn which of the 4 utility classes toes are you going to crunch for that?

    if you don't like the 'death touch if not a tank' mechanic, fine. give it a massive damage modifier if your not a tank. make it so you'll need at least 2 healers working hard to keep a non-tank alive, and 1 healer working to keep a real tank alive. don't make it so a group can be Brig, Bl, conjy, necro, ranger, druid and get the job done just as easy, or faster than if the brig was any fighter class.
  11. Fairin Active Member


    there's a thread for this already made. post or reply there. but this needs said here too...

    alas this is the defense of the devs. and it gets shattered by a single thought...

    Just thinking of all those fighters going LFG for hours not getting a group because no one needs a tank. The horror, the shame.

    scouts and mages did not replace yer fighters cause they could. they replaced them because there were none to go around and just so happened - as you said. out geared the place and could roll without lookin for one for hours.

    you also need to think of the future of the game - when people out gear a zone or people that play at odd hours off peak. its just not healthy for the game.
  12. Kenn Well-Known Member

    Maybe they should have a special tank that is worthless on its own, but can get group buffs, and special buffs from the other classes. For example, a necro could drain its power into the tank during a fight to give the tank aggro, and a healer can drain its health to give more mit. So basically, if the group is super good then the tank will be good too. If the group focuses too much on killing the mobs, and ignors the tank, it will lose power and be worthless again.
  13. Wgrace Active Member


    Isn't that a guardian?
  14. Arclite Well-Known Member

    I am someone who has always played a tank and have done so over the last 14 years. No alts to speak of that are worthy of mention. Suffice to say I have stuck with my guard through thick and thin, granted with some time away due to real life commitments and occasional frustration with the game changes. Latter being during the KA expansion.

    Now, I agree with numerous things mentioned by the OP and others but let me paint the picture from a main tank’s perspective as to what has caused this downward trend that we have seen over the last 2-3 expansions.

    I strongly feel that some of the main contributing factors in this decline started in the late quarter of ToT and all the way through KA. The changes made with drastic inflation of potency through items and then tithe introduction was its beginning. No one had anticipated the level of grind people managed to do to get their tithe potency up. Going in to KA and the lack of potency on tank items meant that tanks were behind the rest of the dps and more so if they had not ground tithe. At this point, a lot of tanks either quit playing or changed their mains. This is where you will need to look at each individual class.
    A tank’s active ability to generate aggro is through dps and some inherently do more dps than others and when you factor in potency disparity between the classes, due to the aforementioned reasons, you create another divide where one tank class is doing better than another. Sadly, many people do not know or appreciate this.

    Anyway, after repeated discussions with devs on discord, we saw a few quick attempts at fixes for example the guardians got a 5% group threat transfer, we saw the same tier 1 raid items get a bump in potency and then introduction of expert zones increased the stats further. Unfortunately, by this time you either lost a lot of tanks or those who remained were still hamstrung by lack of tithe points in potency.

    Any returning tanks mid to late KA had a mountain to climb, you had to grind ascension, gear up, do the epic, grind for ascension upgrades – which at this time were offering an exponential increase in dps to players and even more if you had them upgraded, thus creating another problem for the tanks who were still lagging behind due to low potency. Now they had another issue to deal with and that was to manage aggro at the beginning of fights where everyone had rising tide charms and ascension spells unloading in a few seconds. In short, a tank had to hold aggro against billions of dps spike in a matter of seconds. I am sure any full time main tank knows that this is a major problem. Snaps and target locks become ineffective and a lot of the content required very little need for a tank as the fights were over in a few seconds and frankly you could run with 1 tank for a lot of raids and be ok with most of the easy stuff.

    To reverse this, you then saw devs putting in a 50 tithe point bauble – clearly indicating that this process, albeit unique, did not work as intended, you now see rising tide charms being changed, you see the tank items with mit/block has same potency as non-tank items, you see the effect of “named is looking for a fighter” in fights, you see scripts which makes all dps stop and do other things so as to give tanks time, you see they “corrected a bug” for taunts to not benefit past 10k potency – which they missed throughout an entire expansion.

    Now in PoP, a lot of changes have been made to reverse what KA did wrong but tanks specifically were hard done by and then to add insult to injury we were promised class changes by the lead designer for this expansion only for them to drop it without even formally telling the players.

    In short, heroic content now (yes just after over a fortnight) is now being cleared at the same speed as it was in KA. Short fights again mean that if a tank can hold aggro for 30 seconds then no issue (as some tanks who say there is nothing wrong with hate) and anything longer like in raids you start to see the imbalance again. That day is not far away that you will not really need a tank to do heroics again. This kind of stuff used to happen with outdated expansions but unfortunately it feels terrible when it’s happening when the expansion is current.

    PoP is better than KA for tanks? Sure, but is that enough? No.


    In order to earn the trust of the tanks back, they need to restructure the classes and define their role. Heavy dependence on ascension spells (pay for upgrades) for tanks to generate threat should be removed and instead their inherent abilities should be given a boost. Make the tanks feel wanted again. Tanks threat has always been tied to dps but not ascension dps and it should remain that way.
  15. Fairin Active Member


    i really hope they do not choose the lazy way out like wow and swtor did and combine stats into mastery then toss in linear AA trees and steamroll everyone into one, or two paths divided by pve / pvp.

    no more gear choices just is the gearscore higher - then its better..

    no more aa choices - no more hybrid support classes, just 3 archtypes

    however currently it doesn't feel like the mobs in PoP ignore potency on taunts like they do on abilities, tank threat is at least double what it was before - its almost excessive. - even in KA raids ive actively tried (without verse just my dps) to rip off a fighter (ahem we as tanks fight for aggro on belgias to limit stack buildup) and couldn't do it as easily as before.

    granted tossin out an ethershadow assassin on pull still does the trick but who does that ;)

    tanks are always wanted
  16. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    "steaming pile of garbage being carried by your group"

    Wow.I realize you're not advocating the phrase, I was just stunned to see it so bluntly put.

    The existence of this phrase, even in the minds of other players is the source of the problem. If your tank is having issues and you DON'T say "hey man, on Friday, I have two hours, how about we get a group going on PGs and you get a dragon's hoard of Marks to spend on Adorns?" The real issue is that tanks aren't "real people" in the eyes of groups. They can be replaced by some other guy who is better geared already. This weakens the entire server.

    I've whined before about how guilds make people cheap and scroogy toward anyone outside their guild, even if they group with them regularly. The cure is supposedly to join a larger guild. But that doesn't pan out either because of the clicky nature of guilds. I've actually had more luck asking for what I need in general chat in nearly any scenario. Just a bigger pool of people.

    Who hasn't experienced this scenario? You join a guild, and during the first few weeks you might ask for some help here or there. Sometimes it works out. But each time, do you ask yourself.. would I have had more luck if I just went to general chat? More people there.

    Usually, nobody cares about your or my needs. They only care about their needs. Until they can't find a tank. Then they whine because they have to care about the tank's needs. It's extremely rare that people care about your needs, even anticipate them,and that has only happened with in a guild for me. Yet look how easy it is to guess what someone needs. We all know the drill by now.

    This is why we should be kinder to people outside our guild. Having 4 or 5 more effective tanks on our server is more valuable than saying the above phrase in our minds and feeling superior.

    However, I'd like to point out that this expansion is still in its infancy. I'm not sure we have explored all the alt upgrade possibilities yet, or even become really good at completing the signature quest in record time yet. Also, in my experience, all expansions start out a bit tough, and soften around the edges later. I think at this point we could, if we had the courage, reach out to tanks we know and support them.

    However 2, I do not agree with making Epic 2.0 obsolete. I mean, if the weapon is obsolete, well ok, we expect it will be eventually, but not the skills. Getting a free pass on the Epic isn't a good idea. And as time goes on, the zones required will become so easy it will not even need a group. Just like the last one. So for right now, just offer to help.
    Aderien likes this.
  17. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    "you see they “corrected a bug” for taunts to not benefit past 10k potency – which they missed throughout an entire expansion."

    ROFL Last expansion I thought my SK was ready to be my main. I remember the disappointment and the struggle to get it right. Everyone telling me I needed more and more potency. I kept pointing out that taunts were an order of magnitude lower (simple numbers guys) than dps so it will never add up to a higher number. When I started looking in old expansions for clickys and weird equipment I had a moment of staring into the void and decided to play a mage. There are limits to which I won't go. I take my hat off to you, @ Arclite for playing Main Guardian for so many years! Please please, if you have any inclination, write a guide to Guardians, we sure can use a modern one.
  18. Mindsway Well-Known Member

    I think the two biggest contributors to low tank population are how alt-unfriendly the game has become, and the fact that most raid fights seem to need only one tank, whereas two or three were once needed. Then again I've just returned to the game about a month ago and still playing catch-up. Did they really JUST uncap potency for taunts? Wow that's messed up haha.
  19. Gillymann Abusive Relationships Aren't Healthy. J S.

    Yep. Give it another month or so, and outside of raids, tanks will be optional again.
    Malleria likes this.
  20. Semperfifofum Well-Known Member

    Taunts aren't the only reason why tanks are reluctant. And TLE will prove that to you. If you don't necessarily know every twist and turn of Stormhold, then you can prove it to yourself. Roll a tank over there and be unsure whether to go left or right. Be unsure when to jump down the well. See people get frustrated with you because, well honestly, they don't know either, but the tank always knew. What @Mathafern said about "everyone has to work, not just the tank" is really true. The tank has to know for instance, which narrow tunnels to go down and pull the mobs back to the group instead of leading everyone in, and which are generally empty. Where the clickys are to get into the Library. Get lost in Stormhold and you'll get just as much complaining on TLE as you do on Live.