The tank problem.

Discussion in 'General Gameplay Discussion' started by Wgrace, Dec 10, 2017.

  1. Wgrace Active Member

    This is NOT a fighter-script death touch thread, but it is about the lack of fighters and I'm functioning under the impression right now that the script was put in to motivate people to play tanks, so I'd like to discuss the real reason why tanks aren't being played very much. Incidentally, it is also the reason why the fighter check scripts are little more than a band-aid approach, and won't work as intended to bring back tanks, but again -- I'm not bringing this up to discuss that specifically.

    I'll start by laying out a series of conclusions I've come to in "train of logic" form which in my opinion explains the underlying issue.

    1: Tanks have always been somewhat hard to find because, frankly, their job is stressful and often thankless.

    2: Due to reason 1, a large number (if not the majority) of tanks I've played with are ALTS who'd rather be playing their dps or healer, but are tanking out of necessity, or in order to gear up their main.

    3: Due to reason 2, the number of tanks in circulation has drastically decreased in recent expansions proportional to the decrease in feasibility of raising an ALT (supporting the conclusion that the bulk of tanking is done supplementally).

    4: The reason for the tank shortage is the constantly growing checklist of "barrier-to-entry" items and pre-requisites being added to the game all in a relatively short period of time which you must overcome in order to be considered anything other than a steaming pile of garbage being carried by your group. Ex; PG adorns, Ascension spell ranks, Epic 2.0, Ethereal class rune (which is far too important to be made unavailable for the majority of the year). That list sounds short at first, but as everyone knows, they aren't the only ones, and even if they were, they are massive enough undertakings to discourage most people heavily.

    Of course, the common rebuttal I see to this this argument is "but those things are not requirements!". This is true of course, but very unrealistic and naive. The only reason this rebuttal is used is that it is easier to hide behind technical truths such as this than it is to confront the more realistic and practical truths. The reality is that very few people are content to float around for an entire expansion at 25% of their potential, slowing everyone down and garnering a reputation of "that player who doesn't have their epic, PG adorns, or class rune and therefore dies constantly, brings very little to the group, and parses as high as a frog's butt is off the ground". So, the technical truth that those things are not requirements is a very bad argument indeed.

    With planes of prophecy, steps have been taken in the right direction to make playing alts easier, but unfortunately, despite the measures taken to be alt-friendlier this year, every single one of the barriers to entry that were in place before PoP still exist, and still need to be overcome. These obstacles were enough to discourage alt usage in KA, so why would that problem suddenly disappear with the release of a new expansion, even if it is an alt-friendlier one?

    There is not an ounce of doubt in my mind that if catching up with a tank alt were as approachable a task as it was in, say, altar of malice for example -- there would be no shortage of tanks beyond the expected one that most MMOs face by default.

    For a game of this age and population, the ability for players to feel flexible with their alt-play is obviously very important to the health of the community. The only way to truly inspire people to start playing their fighter characters again is to address this issue by phasing some of those obstacles out by making them obsolete through offering equivalent or better replacements in the latest content which are accessible within a reasonable amount of time, or making changes to the time-to-completion for said obstacles.

    I understand that the occasional grand goal is needed to play the role of the proverbial carrot on the stick in MMORPGs, but it seems like there has been an abnormal flurry of them that have popped up in a very short period of time all of a sudden, which is bad pacing. The previous grand goal should be on its way out the door as a new one makes its entrance, but as it stands currently we have 3 or 4 of them stacked on top of each other making the prospect of raising any alt seem like a truly daunting task for most. Even if PoP individually is better about this, that doesn't fix the problem; It only avoids adding to it. That is a good thing, but it isn't enough.

    You can try to brute force a solution to this problem by designing content which acts like an ultimatum to players, but you're really gambling with your subs at that point when you could just compromise in certain areas instead and restore a bit of balance. Just my 2 coppers.

    EDIT: In anticipation of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary posts; yes there are exceptions, yes okay you have a friend or are one of the few yourself who plays a tank for the joy of it. That is wonderful but you're an exception.
    Toxify, BNB82, Fairin and 5 others like this.
  2. Malleria Well-Known Member

    I think the increasing complexity of heroic zones has contributed to this as well, at least in terms of barriers to entry. Tanks are often expected to lead the group through zones and to be familiar with every aspect of a fight. It's not really a problem with friends because a lot of leeway is given for learning new fights, but doing pugs when you're not 100% sure is an invitation for abuse.
    Mathafern, The_Real_Wurm and Lucus like this.
  3. luxxxaeterna Member

    Wgrace, I could not agree more with your post.
    If we had a large population, then maybe it will be ok, but now the game should and must be more flexible than ever.
    Meneltel likes this.
  4. The_Real_Wurm Well-Known Member

    So true, and the main reason I only tank for people I know.
  5. Relanah Active Member



    Wait what?

    Wasn't literally point 1 and 2 of your "Train of logic as to why tanks are not very popular" focused around "People are playing ALT tanks because they have to, but would rather be playing DPS/Healer/Utility"

    Why would making getting ALT TANKS geared up help the shortage of tanks? All it does it mean that when someone is FORCED to go play their alt tank in order to get through some content, they'd be better geared.

    Doesn't stop them wanting to still main their DPS/Healer/Utility class. Doesn't make Tank mains any more available (Since, you know, this "Barrier to entry" issue is a non-factor for Tank mains, 'cause they've already done it all).

    The only thing it *Might* do is make it so a newbie player, who wants to main Tank can get going a bit easier (But same could be said about a newbie player who wants to do any role... Gotta get all the stuff at some point in order to be effective).

    Really, if you wanna get more tanks, you'd be looking at making them more appealing to play, be it by reducing the stress caused by general PuG'ing (I.e. When you're newbie 110 Fighter comes along and tries to keep aggro over 2.0 Epic'd, Ascended, full Deity stat etc. DPS that just wanna go ham 0.1 seconds after you pull something...) or by making Fighters feel more like the DPS alternatives (DPS are popular. See plenty of Scouts all the time. But Fighters are not? Why? Is it because of the lower damage from Fighters = slower solo? Is it due to how Fighters play (I.e. Scouts have positionals and stealth to play with to keep things engaging)? Is it something else?)
  6. Rainmare Well-Known Member

    I think your being unrealistic and over estimating the amount of the population that want to min/max EVERYTHING all the time. I tank just fine and hold up against people that all those PG things, and thier etheral runes. I don't have my eth rune, I don't have any PG stuff but the ring and the adorn that goes in that ring. cause PGs can bite me.

    very few of my ascention abilities are even to expert, since I ain't spending RL money on it. they can get my subscription fee, adn that's all their getting.

    and I can tank just fine.

    the problem with there being no tanks was in KA especially, a tank just was not flat needed. mages and scouts coudl tank and DPS with no issues. the only time anyone even wanted a tank, was to do experts. and even then, a decently geared for experts scout or mage could do the job.

    that's the reason the tank pool dried up. we just flat were not needed for anything outside of raids, and raids only need like 2-3 tanks at best. add on top of that the pretty much thankless and everything is your fault abuse tanks get, and yeah. a lot of them just flat quit.

    you want tanks back? make them TANKS again. make it so the mages can't do the job, and the scouts have to actually spec for it in thier aas/defensive stuff and give up their dps for it. people might dust off the shelved tanks or be inerested if there is an actual NEED for them outside of a raid.
  7. Wgrace Active Member


    Because people would be a lot more likely to "suck it up" and play their tanks if the barrier to entry were less obstructive and it was easier to bring them up to competent levels of gear. NOT competent levels as dictated by absolute minimums, but competent as dictated by the community at large, which includes many of the ultra-intensive requirements I listed above. I know this is true because I knew a lot of players who alted tanks in the past, who no longer do for this very reason, and that also includes myself, and have been told by a large number of people the same thing, and it just makes sense.

    You then go on to basically agree with me in the second half of your post here, just with some elaboration on individual gameplay mechanics. I don't know if you realize that -- maybe you didn't read my entire post.
  8. Wgrace Active Member


    I....
    I......
    I........ am anecdotal. Read my EDIT at the bottom of my post.

    I agree there are role issues however, but I think it is a parallel issue to the one I outlined. These things can be addressed simultaneously, and in fact KA has taken some steps to do so -- which I mentioned. It is not enough though, which I also mentioned.
  9. Chaim New Member

    I agree with the OP.

    I haven't played since just before KA and have been thinking about returning. I play a serk and I actually prefer tank classes. I have since launch. So if I do return it would be as a tank. Here's what it would mean for me to return....

    I have my Epic 1.0 but did the ER route when they added that option. Many of my alts have done the actual epic line, just not this toon that is now my main.

    I need to do the KA timeline. From my understanding there is a piece of jewelry I will need from that.

    I need to level up ascension levels.

    I need to do Epic 2.0

    I don't know much about the PGs. But it sounds like there are items I need from there by reading the other posts here.

    While it was my decision to leave the game when I did, this puts a big roadblock up in front of me. The fact that the ER doesn't count for the Epic 2.0 still ticks me off since that shortcut was put in the game long ago.

    A side note about the aggravations of being a tank...I think how agro is handled is a mess. I know there are the people that say "I never have trouble holding agro, you just don't know what you're doing". But the truth of the matter is there has been an issue with it for years. Maybe I'm old school in thinking a tank should be defensive in nature and not be forced to put out high dps to hold agro. But I still think its how it should be. A tank doing high dps needs to be more fragile. I know people like to see the high numbers so this will most likely never come to pass. Again, this is my opinion.

    Anyway, I'm still debating on coming back. I like my toons and miss playing them. But being a single dad with three young kids, it's difficult to be able to keep up with the time sink for the above requirements when they are current let alone playing catch up.
  10. Relanah Active Member

    But you're still going to be stuck with a small pool of tanks, since you're gonna still be relying on alts, which you picked out as the reason for there being no tanks.

    Your OP didn't mention "Oh, people USED to play alt tanks and now they don't because it sucks to gear them up", no, it just said "Tanking isn't fun so people just use their alts to tank with"

    Ehhh... Not as such. The quip about the gear discrepancy is more to do with the fact that many DPS mains don't do Tanks any favours in regards to getting them going. Due to their need to top the DPS charts being a bigger priority than not ripping the aggro off the tank constantly.

    The rest of my post was simply then about how Tanks need to be more fun in order to garner more Tank mains. Thus would remove the need for more viable Alt gearing by reducing the amount of people who need to swap to their alts just to tank something.

    I mean, my anecdotal evidence is that I'm a Tank player. Every game I play, I usually will end up playing a Tank of some description. Yet here in EQ2? I look at my Fighters and think how meh they feel to play and then log onto something else...
  11. Wgrace Active Member

    I meant POP** has taken some steps to do so.
  12. CoLD MeTaL Well-Known Member

    Spot ON OP!
  13. Mathafern Well-Known Member

    What tank problem? :D
    Snikkety likes this.
  14. Vunder Well-Known Member

    I love tanking. I prefer to tank. I even love pugs.

    I don't tank anymore.

    1. Runes...I dont get to tank in raids so I have to focus on healer. I dont have time to get runes for tank.
    2. Epic 2.0...same as 1..i have limited time.
    3. More and more people are A**holes to me if I mess up.
    4. Back to #1...tanks are VERY limited in the raid game...as such...if I want to raid I have to focus on my raid toon which leaves me very little time to build a nice tank.
    5. Distant 5...gear checks are stiff vs other classes.
    Mindsway likes this.
  15. Fairin Active Member

    just bring on ffxiv's class change system, wouldnt that be fun to pick cross class abilities too...

    you cannot fix the fighter shortage with heavy handed "bring a fighter or else" mechanics, you gotta convince the playerbase you have now to mainswitch,

    it'd be like the government telling you what job you gotta goto work at, "or else" - you can continue to do your own thing. but you're not gonna get paid as much.

    for reference, ffxiv you develop your character. you can change your class anytime out of combat - still gotta earn them epics tho, but its a less of a pain cause all the rewards goto your character, but the lootboxes in eq2 would probably still be plate if you're runnin a plateclass. not your for chainwearing class. but it'd help a bit... but if your group needed a fighter or healer. someone can probably switch on the spot, the end =)
  16. Revel Well-Known Member

    My main was an SK when I first started in 2004. The biggest problem with tanks? SoE/Daybreak has never been good about tank equality or balancing. From 2004-2008, no raid guild wanted anything but a Guardian as MT. As such, I moved on, first to Brigand, then to Illusionist. I quit for a number of years when TSO launched, and when I came back things haven't changed in balance regards. Guardians are now down the list, and most high end raid guilds I see run with a Zerker MT. Crusaders have always had a survivability issue in raid set up and hence my SK remains my secondary alt for back up raiding and running guildmates through heroics.. Monks are solid, but when is the last time you saw a bruiser? Heck, when was the last time you saw a bruiser as a MAIN? I can only think of 1 on Maj'Dul.

    If they want to fix the tank issue it needs to start with some tank equality.
  17. Vunder Well-Known Member


    Same, only one I can think of (and I play on 3 servers), is Primula on Maj'Dul. Thats the only Bruiser I know.
  18. Fairin Active Member

    it has been a while since i seen him runnin around...wonder where Corydonn went off too... we do got one monk tank on AB tho ! saw him postin for a pug earlier this mornin =)

    searching 110 brusier on AB returns 1 result XD
  19. Mermut Well-Known Member

    Starting in the harder zones in ToV, the bosses on many of the fights, even i heroics, require tanks to maintain a solid rotation of defensives or they won't last long enough to BE healed. That makes a SUPER high learning curve for tanks...
    I used to maintain a tank to help out with groups, but since it's not my main or my favorite thing, I'm not willing to put the time into learning and adjusting a defensive rotation.. and since I main a healer.. I"m not about to torture another healer with a tank that isn't helping out like they should be.

    Relax the 'have something up or die' hits from the bosses in heroics or this problem won't go away.
    Vulnere and Malleria like this.
  20. Sure Active Member

    I think with Thalumbra, Kunark Ascending they made a poor choice into shoe horning people into only playing one main and abandoning alts in effect. The only 'alting' I managed to do and be OK with was tradeskilling during that time period. Up till end of AoM the adv alt was a thing.

    So being above average player is a lot of work irrespective of class not just specifically for tanking, those points in the OP apply just as well to other under served classes in game.

    As far as tanking goes, it is an MMO wide problem, not unique to EQ2, classically Tanks and Healers are not typically popular choice or utility type classes, usually because of one of two things.

    The classes are not fun to play in group or raid setting, or they are very hard to get recognition of what they bring to the table that is not so linearly reduced to a number, as per DPS classes, also they at least in healers and tank cases, bear the most responsibility to the group/raid and DPS is popular for that reason to, you are not responsible at least many seem to think/behave that way at any rate, no matter what game designers do.

    There is a certain amount of social engineering involved with tanking anyhow, perhaps the most unique problem facing anyone that actually tanks (even if they are not a fighter class as their primary game designated role) is that only a small subset of personalities meet the requirement.

    ~~~

    To be a PuG or for that matter PuR tank, you need to enjoy or be capable of:

    1) Bossing people around/leading the social group.

    2) Dealing with opinionated fools that do not know when to stop as well as taking on actual real pointers for content IF they actually know what they are talking about, which usually is not the case and they end up telling you something seriously wrong, unless they happen to be a main tank on an alt in your group, if it is something Tank specific as opposed to content context specific.

    3) Dealing with idiots that never learn to follow or comprehend instruction/or ask what you mean if they don't get it, IF they are listening/reading.

    4) Enjoy not only fighting broken game mechanics as in bugged encounters or purposely broken abilities to make the content more challenging but also enjoy fighting with your temporary team mates, either verbally or textually and definitely for aggro mechanics, a tank has three battles in every fight at least, versus the rest of the player base that only has one or one and half if they are a healer.

    5) You must have thick skin to deal with the occasional bonafide troll personality.

    6) You must be capable of dealing with people who just need on things they do not need and will not acquiesce to reasonable demands or requests be it either from you or other group members, being out voted 5 to 1 in some cases would be nice to be a thing in such circumstances as they arise.

    7) You must be capable of dealing with people who do not fulfill their roles be it heal(s), dps or utility adequately and compensate for their short comings, assuming you are the group leader, which usually is the case in PuG/PuR tanking.

    8) You must be able to tolerate hyper active or inattentive/afkish personalities.

    9) If you yourself as Tank are not up to par for content being attempted you will have to deal with consequences of a reputational hit within the community you find yourself in, if it is something you do not work hard to address, sometimes that effect can be long lasting, depending entirely on your demeanor in handling such events.

    10) At some point you may find you no longer are a PuG or PuR tank as you will find you end up doing stuff with the same bunch of people that may take a liking to you, if they remember you, (most people do not remember pick up group members nor do they care, so you have to be able to deal with slow make friends process), if you are good enough or charming enough, what ever your draw is, at that point you cease to be part of the Pick up pool and thus the apparent shortage begins anew.

    11) Patience, tolerance, the ability to adapt and learn, a decent amount of intelligence, high ability to work out visual/audio cues on the fly as well as environmental/spacial awareness as well as having near encyclopedic knowledge of other classes and their capabilities and the ability to discern other players skill/contribution potential at the start of the group is actually a super rare thing to find in a PuG/PuR tank. The bar is very high on tanking and the audience is not forgiving usually. Because that is just the way things work in an MMO, any MMO.

    12) You must be highly communicative with your team mates, don't like VC or don't like to type or have an inability to do one or the other, will put you at a huge disadvantage. Some players have preferences and you need to possess the ability to do deal/work around both things, doing neither is not really an option.

    13) You do not get the option for breaks, people will expect you to go start to finish for the content, no matter how long it takes. DPS/Util can sneak off, tank can not, healers have this complication as well.

    ~~~

    Above and beyond that, another trait that is expected of Pick up tanks is no real alliance to specific core of people, or a particular play schedule, there is actually not enough content around for one player to really tank all day and all night, even if there was, why would they, most normal people have two or three hours in a day to play a game, at most, in one sitting, maybe a chunk of the eq2 population can be a lot more hours in one go say 10-20 but that is not the norm.

    That all said, a lot of tanks are rolled because they are very forgiving to solo on, but to be competent (as a player playing the toon, outside of limitations/bonuses of a specific tank class) in a group or raid setting, there is flat out just too much busy work to get up to scratch, to simply just log in and enjoy the game.

    Usually by that point, there is actually no point playing a tank as a main, which is why there are seasonal fluxes in populations for tanks. Veni Vidi Vici applies very much so, depending on the PuG tank that can be as short as a week into an expac to as long as a couple to three months, it is rare for a PuG tank to be still needing new stuff after what ever minimum farm time for gear is, for the individual. A tank main always needs new stuff to chase IF they are a high play time kind of tank, if they are low, they will simply fall far behind the pack and will face such a burden they will not play, once again adding to glut/shortage situations.

    So in short, like others have said with less explicit or perhaps exhaustive reasons, the tanking game actually is more of a chore/bore and in some cases a snore/work than it is actual 'radical fun man' in the true sense. Wish there was a way to candy coat it but there isn't; the problem is two fold not only the underlying game mechanics, gating issues but people/players too.

    If you were serious about making tanking fun again, you would have to make tanks be a lot more self sufficient at their primary roles, namely staying alive and holding aggro, it would be nice to DPS too for those times when we don't need to tank, damn shame recklessness went away, a lot of tanks had a lot of fun in its original semi OP form waaaay back when, the ascension stuff does not count, it actually plays against how a tank works, a tank needs fast cast, fast reactive abilities, these 2 to 5 second cast non sense basically makes tanks feel like ghetto want to be wizards, a real big turn off for old school tanks like myself. :)
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