The story of the new paladin..

BChizzle wrote:

I never said I was aruging it.....
Fact is immunity to strikethrough will NOT happen for crusaders unless it is given to ALL tank's defensive stance. It was given to brawlers to "even out" the avoidance as brawlers were avoiding and still avoid less than mitigation tanks. The only possible class who would gain immunity to strikethroughs singular as well as brawlers would be guardians; and they already gained a increased block chance in defensive.

i think crusaders should get ice comet and insta cast fusion too. and assasinate. and sniper shot.

The only thing Paladins really want are our heals fixed. Thats all we really want.... ok, well we'd like that and not to be slapped with the nerf stick when SOE is aiming at SKs.

Sk is dps class wearing plate armor with high hate generation - so best option as a OT.
If any of other kind of fighters would play endgame sk you would see he has not many tanking tools compare to warriors for example.
OFC we have emergency clickies like Sadowknoght furror (only melee) , Hateful respite, Siphon Blood, Touch of Death (only melee) but they r on medicore- long recast time and cant be used as real tanking shorttimers.
Some will Say BL is OP - again its bloody obvies it will proc if every thing else will fail - and since sk is not build as a real tank it has big chance to proc.
What keeps SKs alive while MTing is great healers - sk is just doing dps/tps and hoping he has good enough healers to keep him alive. Basicaly same as scouts tanking Sara in Labs or Vulaan on tox pulls.
Problem is rather with content wich is too easy and it allows sk to perform MT job easly.

Good news! Shadowknights and paladins got buffed on test.
Crusaders

• “Holy Steed” and “Unholy Steed” now grant 25% run speed.

Cuz you know... important stuff here. My only guess as to why time was taken to go into code and change the value of these two variables is new eq2x players that purchase a crusader would have been dissapointed with only a 20% mount.

Rahatmattata wrote:

last i checked the mount speed was at 10% not 20%.... So 10% - 25% is not tooooo bad (though still pointless). Even at 25% it is still well under what it originally was at durring launch (and well into it) which if memory serves was 40%.

Controlor wrote:

it was 40% at launch which caused no end of complaints and calls for a nerf and it was reduced to 10% thereafter as it was "fluff" which was semi useful.
This was when it was massively expensive to get mounts.. back when 1plat meant something

Boli32 wrote:

And here I thought that was why you had 1) your wards (which can be cast vs every single AE, making it less likely that you will be single-shotted), 2) Divine Aura (which completely negates any auto-attack hit just fine for 10 seconds), 3) Lay on Hands, 4) Sigil of Heroism (around 1700 additional mitigation vs, say, auto-attacks and physical AE's), 5) permanent 10% Damage Reduction (takes even more of the edge off those physical AE's), and 10% auto-healing (which is applied right after each of the two auto-attacks and the AE hit, assuming the AE didn't kill you by itself).
Meanwhile, guardians have Tower of Stone, the undoubtedly best way of dealing with a single damage spike that you know is coming. ToS can be pre-cast vs one AE every 60 seconds, a figure which can't be improved upon, since the base recast time of ToS is two minutes.
It is really too damned bad most mobs AE four to six times every minute, so guardians have the best spike damage survivability vs one AE out of every four to six, and the worst the rest of the time.
Heck, even if we decide to try to block just one single AE out of the three to four that virtually every raid mob cycles through, it still doesn't work all the time, since the vast majority of AE's are on a 40 - 45 sec reuse timer. In other words, ToS is, at most, able to block every other AE of one particular type.
So, if a mob uses six AE's a minute and we want to block, say, the trauma AE, we would end up blocking one AE every 80 - 90 seconds using ToS. That is one AE out of six to eight.
Add in Last Man Standing, which is able to block one AE every 5 minutes (this can be reduced further via Jester's Cap and the like), and under even the best of circumstances, we still can't consistently block one single AE throughout a fight.
And that makes you "no near as defensive" as guardians?
Give me a frigging break.
There is one single fight in the tier 9--one--in which guardians actually have an easier time staying alive than paladins and berserkers, and that is exclusively because one of the AE's in said fight frequently one-shots the tank, irrespective of the class, so stoneskins or dramatic damage reduction (e.g., Adrenaline) effectively become a necessity.
One fight in the entire frigging expansion. And that makes paladins "no near as defensive" as guardians?

RAYVEN2 wrote:

Nobody is claiming that guardians are unable to tank SF raid content.
The only mob I can think of right now that a guardian probably can't handle without a lot of unnecessary jumping through hoops on the part of the healers is Klaaktus on hard-mode, since we aren't immune to fear whereas crusaders are.
What a lot of guardians and others are stating is that all the other fighters are able to handle the very same raid mobs--usually more easily when considering berserkers and paladins--while bringing a lot more utility and DPS to the table.
Thus, two scenarios present themselves:
1) If guardians are supposed to afford less utility and DPS, then we should have more survivability. If the difference in utility and DPS is massive--and it currently is--then the same should apply to the survivability difference, so only we should be able to tank hard-mode raid mobs consistently and reliably.
2) If, on the other hand, all fighters are supposed to be able to reliably tank the same content with equivalent gear, then it follows that all tanks should have equivalent DPS and utility. This, in turn, implies that guardians need a massive DPS and utility upgrade.
I'd personally go with 1) if it were up to me, but option 2) is acceptable, too, if implemented properly. The status quo, however, is untenable.

Karnos@Nektulos wrote:

I wont comment on guardian survivability as i do not know that class. Though from just experience MTing / OTing raids i can visually see that with same group set up that our guard MT takes significantly less spike damage than me. (and we have pretty much same gear). But enough of that i am here to comment on the bold red text above.
1) Our wards do NOT help significantly with spike damage THIS is what we are asking for in the first place. ALL of our heals have been drastically limited by the fact that they do not crit. As it is now it wards about 15% of our health (And the more health we have the less it wards for). So if we cast it before an aoe incoming we may be at 25% health instead of 10% health (weeeee). The next hit kills us regardless.
2) Lay Hands. Again going back to it not critting and it not scaling with our health. It heals for about 30-40% of our health. THAT is nothing when its an "OOH NO" spell on a 5 min reuse that costs us about 4-5% power to cast.
3) Divine Aura (Well no paladin takes this ability as it only stops damage if it is under 50% of our health so spike damage its useless). You are probably refering to Stonewall. This is a 10 second duration buff that prevents melee swings and trauma aoe's HOWEVER it is NOT immune to striketrhough. So yah sure you may prevent SOME of the incoming melee / trauma damage you are NOT guaranteed to prevent it all.
4) Sigil of Heroism. It takes a red adorn to get the +mit% increase. But weee another 1500 mit if your already over cap. How useful is that? It is the same issue with guard abilities that give you mit when your at cap, and this is "one" of the reasons they are changing mit next expac. But until that change that red adorn is very very limited in use.

Note: I did not say the abov it was just a bad trimming of a quote.
Point remains that when 90% of your abilities revolve around healing.. which was nerfed drastically to 20-30% of its capability it simply does not scale correctly the higher the mobs you fight. So something which is perceived as "overpowered" solo and group becomes useless in raid especially against HM mobs.
What paladins need is somethgin which scales well from solo to raid enviroment; and if SoE refuse to have us "heal too much" (which ironically we now heal LESS than zerkers and SKs) then there has to be other ways of reducing incming damage.
Funny thing about Stoneskins - they prevent like 200 damage solo... and 20,000 damage in raids... ergo they scale.
Heals (ward) will stop 2,000 damage solo and still prevetn 2,000 damage against a 20,000 hit as well. they do NOT scale.

Which is why stone skins are so drastically limited in number and duration.
A Guardian can stone skin:
4 hits every 2 minutes with Tower of Stone.
7 hits every 5 minutes with Last man standing.
25% chance to stone skin a hit for 20 seconds every 3 minutes with Guardian Sphere.
How often can a Paladin heal themselves, in the long run a Paladin will take less damage than a Guardian, especially when you take into account their 10% innate damage reduction. Yes a Guardian can stop/reduce the odd spike, but if these abilities are being used to reduce AOE damage then they won't be up when needed to stop other spikes.
As a Paladin you want more abilities to handle spikes.... What exactly are you willing to give up because Guardians have the least Hate/DPS/Utility/AOE Hate/AOE DPS of ALL other plate tanks bar none.

PS... "Story of a new Guardian"..
1. Create char
2. Level to 90
3. See <insert tank name here> do everything you can do but better and more easily.
4. Betray/re roll.

Yes it was Boli sorry .... forgot to delete your name it was a quote from Karnos

Soul_Dreamer wrote:

Real good way of putting it. 'IF' you currently can't handle spikes then what are you gonna give up for that ability? You have to much now. Your dps is crazy, your hate is just stupid with high DPS and amends, your survivability is way higher than Guardians except for 'maybe' some raid spike damage and your raid/group utility is very nice.
List what you'll give up for your ability to 'easily' handle spike damage and we'll discuss.

Wasuna wrote:

Our Heals? They are next to useless anyway in the current state and Paladins get outhealed by other tanks, wich is ridiculous.

If you play a paladin thats freshly minted on a new account and you don't help it out financially to afford the good gear and spells.... you're going to have a really rough time doing much of anything. Seriously, take out the good gear and don some mastercrafted/"standard" gear while playing a non capped paladin through say the 40s-70s content, THEN say paladins are OP or even really that OK. I dare you. I have to say though that with 80-90 MC being substancially better than the paladin's t3 shard armor options and content being more or less tailored to t2-t3 shard armor, MC brellium is sitting at a pretty enjoyable and fair level.
It's not right to balance an entire class from level 1 naked to level 90 stacked in top end gear purely off the numbers that are produced at the cap. You can't ignore the top levels in balance considerations, but ignoring the consequences it has on the entire range of levels/gear will cripple newcomers and those that are up and coming. We all know that EQ2 is extremely unfriendly to newbies and this is no exception to the long and increasing reasons of why that is.
This heal change for crusaders came about because of gear at the top ends causing massive OP healing powers. Logic says that if you don't fix the source of the problem you're just creating a new one. The heal change completely cripples paladins that aren't endowed with **** gear/cap level/high aas. I'm not pretending to have the answer to the problem, but I am cheesed that a large portion of the paladin experience for newcomers suffers because of unbalanced conditional, situational, and by no means unique to the crusader occurances for the top end players fighting semi-trivial content.

BTW, amends is not that omg OP anymore and hasn't for a loooooong time. Despite the fact you probably already know, go look up how much of amends a paladin actually gets in proper groups. Groups where there isn't proper utility likely will result in the paladin running short on power quickly in which case they need to rely on amends to counter their reduced use of abilities/dps to conserve power to match the group's speed.

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