The NEW Warlock Issues and Concerns Thread

Ilucide wrote:

Yes, this is true. And I think we understand that... but what the issue is, is that I cast a spell. It gets resisted. In that time, a scout casts a CA, and it misses. During the time I was casting, getting reisted, the scout missed once, hit several times with autoattack, drops a high-damage CA, autoattacks a couple more times.

Net effect:
Caster: 0 DPS.
Scout: n DPS (autoattack) + n DPS (successful CA) - n DPS (missed CA) = n DPS.

Multiply this by however many times the scenario happens in a raid encounter, and there is just NO WAY that a caster will ever match the scout's DPS, even if we have as many resists as they have misses.

It's not just a heightened perception problem. It's not just that we see the effect of a miss/resist more than scouts do, it's that there is a very real, and quite obvious detrimental effect to our DPS because of it, which simply doesn't apply to scouts (or other melee types).

I'm a Wizard, not a Warlock, but I assume we have similarly long cast times. We both have no autoattack to speak of. If I cast an Ice Nova, it takes 4 seconds to cast. If it is resisted, that is 4 seconds of fight that I am doing absolutely nothing. In that same 4 seconds, an Assassin can drop 8,000-16,000 points of damage (or more). So, I have to re-cast. Another 4 seconds. If I get another resist, the problem is even worse.


Another thing to think about is how important cast order and timing is for us. When I got serious about maximizing my DPS, I was amazed at what a huge effect casting the wrong spell at the wrong time, or having a resist at a key point in the rotation had.

Perhaps this issue isn't as bad when you are with a so-called "hardcore" raid. But I am here to attest in non-ideal raids, it surely is a problem, and if you don't think it is.... well, you don't understand the whole issue. I raid on Venekor. We are already running at a huge dissadvantage since we are limited to only Evil-side classes. Consistantly, the top 5 of the parse are scouts (assasins, an occasional brig), with the only reason I can make the top 5 because we don't have 5 assasins in the raid. Not only is it disheartening to see, without fail, an Assassin on top of the parse, but that same one parsing twice what I do consistantly, and half the time having the highest hit, beating Ice Nova and Fusion.

--Tusk

/waves his hand like a Jedi.

There's nothing wrong with your class. Move along.

It isn't just the resists, its the mitigation that was added as well. When spell mitigation was re-introduced to epics, was physical mitigation added as well? Because, I am seeing parses where the minimum hit for Distortion is <100 dmg and yet I notice that none of the melee autoattack dmg seems to be lower than the weapon's stated dmg range.

On some of the few multi-mob encounters check what your hit %'s and dmg amounts are for Upheaval, Absolution, Cataclysm and Armageddon. It isn't pretty. As a warlock my disruption skill is quite high, easily 500+ in raids. But, when you get into a situation where some of the mobs you are trying to hit aren't being actively debuffed, the effectiveness of our spells plummet. The recast timer still runs, the cast time and power usage remain the same if you hit 1 mob or 5 mobs.

Not saying that I don't top the parse on multi-mob encounters, but it is often closer than I am on single mob encounters. I preceive the difference to be that classes that focus on single target mobs have their primary abilities always hitting a debuffed mob, encounter specialists are now trying to hit 1 debuffed mob and how ever many more that aren't. It isn't such a big problem at this stage with the lack of linked encounters, but it could be in the future.

I find we even fall behind on some of the raid-zone multi-mob encounters at times. The problem is the final mob has so many HP, that the scouts will catch up and pass us before the last mob drops.

Wytie wrote:

The only word I can think of to discribe that is blocked by the filter, but its starts in "ret", and ends in "arded".
As a wizard (the supposed king of single target DPS... lol), this should be insta cast, insta recast. Its their epic, it should be, well, epic.

Blacktusk@Venekor wrote:

Another issue along these lines that is hardly ever bought up.
In order for a sorcerer to do max PS, they are always casting something. A top sorcerer will have a spell being cast, the next spell qued, and either the mouse over the spell folloing that one, or a finger on the hotkey for the spell to be cast after the one that is cued. On top of this, they have their eye on the spell they are going to go to after that spell has been qued, and are thinking about the spell after that one.
We never have a period of not casting spells, which is why a resist hurts.
Scouts, on the other hand, can not, and thus do not do this. Their combat art cast/recast timers see them casting a combat art roughly 2/3rds of the time, at best. If they miss on a combat art its not as big a deal, because they are not delaying other combat arts in order to get that one out, as they may well have no other combat arts up.
I am starting to wonder if class balance was done assuming every class auto attacked for the same DPS.

Ilucide wrote:

It's been said a thousand times many different ways but I'll add my voice as well.

Wizards and Warlocks are pure dps. There should be no situation where they do not top the parse. We have no utility and no survivability. People chose these classes to dps. These 2 classes should be what all others measure themselves against. These classes should not be about if I cast my spells in the perfect order without any resist, and all debuffs are in, the mobs stay alive long enough, and the moon is shining, that I might be in the top 5. We are dps nothing more. Please fix. Thank you and have a nice day.

Rhayven wrote:

This pretty much sums up the problem with all of us right here.
Sure some(very few) warlocks in perfect gear in the perfect group with perfect debuffs on the mobs can consistantly top parses but a majority of the time thats just not the case.

I'd like my Warlock to be able to out dps my Monk and preferably my Swashy as well.

All lvl 80 btw.

I have a level 80 warlock. I love her. But I do have some issues....


RESISTS and Subjugation

Since the change to mob spell resists I've been upping my disruption. I actually pay attention to whether it's on equipment now, etc. I Even use STA line in one of my AA specs to get that +48 to spell skills. That helps a lot, but at the cost of dps from STR or WIS line. In SoH (particularly bad on resists... scouts and even tanks regularly wipe the floor with mages on our parses in there) using STA AAs to boost disruption to over 500 cuts resists way down...

HOWEVER, resists on Aura of Void are very high - this is very important because it is one of our major dps spells (#2 in dps to broodlings and double the dps of most other spells with all 3 triggers). In SoH, even with STA line, I was still getting regular resists with Aura... I checked the spell and it's SUBJUGATION. Why is one of our major dps spells subjugation - it may make sense from how the spell works, but because of how the resist changes have worked out, this really hurts warlocks for dps. Are any of the main wizard dps spells subjugation? This spell doesn't root a mob or control it. It's adds triggerable damage.

Perhaps there should be no resistance check for Aura up front, but then each trigger should be rolled against disruption to hit? That would fix this. Alternately, Aura could just be changed directly to disruption. Otherwise, can we please get +Subj added to much of our gear? That seems a bit out of place for a warlock, doesn't it? I like the change to disruption better.

I don't mind the warlock debuffs having higher resists and being subjugation - that makes sense as a penalty for being a dps class and not having subjugation normally on our equipment, but Aura is a MAJOR component of our spell rotations and dps... it wasn't a big deal before, the spell resist changes is what has made this an issue, and I consider this spell as badly needing to be 'fixed'.

It would be nice if my debuffs didn't have *quite* such a high number of resists either - makes me want to not cast them - I'm just not built for subjugation. But with that goes the use of that whole AA tree and some of the utility warlocks have. Maybe the final ability in the reductions line should also add +25 or +50 subjugation? Either way I believe Aura needs to be changed to disruption.


EPIC WEAPON

Broodlings!

I like the upcoming change from the dumbfire pets to 10% crit damage boost - will make it more comparable to the wizard epic in damage increase. But I would like to see this extra crit damage in addition to, instead of replacing, the dumbfire doubling. For solo/groups, and a *very* few raid encounters these pets are very useful.

What I'd really like to see is some way for our pets to have survivability. Since broodlings is in many ways a class defining spell - multiple aoe damage pets - I'd love to see an AA or epic ability for the broodlings to somehow avoid AOE damage. It shouldn't be a blanket protection, like the shaman's dog has, but maybe a high percentage chance, like 75% or 80% - maybe even 50% would work - to avoid non-direct AOE. This way you would lose maybe 1 broodling per aoe on a raid mob. And it wouldn't make it overpowered on group mobs either. Such an ability would work wonderfully on the FABLED epic. Put that together with the current doubling effect on the MYTHICAL, and I think you have a great warlock effect.

Alternately, you could have the broodlings AA add 15% chance to avoid non-direct AOE per point for a max of 75% chance.

We don't need the broodlings to be guaranteed a full lifespan, we just need them to last longer than they do - currently only until the very next aoe in raids. This change would give them longer life in raids without guaranteeing it and without having to change current hitpoints of the broodlings (possibly affecting other issues).

However, currently the dumbfire pets doubling is scheduled to be removed. The replacement may actually help with the dps issues we have, we shall have to see. If that is truly a 10% increase to total damage of any spell that crits, it will make our epic much more in line with what the wizards have. That is - once you get to 100% crit!


The Clicky - 30% extra damage to single targets (encounter aoe only)

Now, there is the issue of the clicky. I think everyone has issues with the cast time and maybe the reuse too. Why is it so
long? Even at 1 s you would be sacrificing a lot of dps to change in battle. At any longer it's not worth it. The
problem here is how SOE is currently designing multi-mob encounters. They come in 2 flavors:

1. Multi-mob encounter, but one mob is the 'boss', with high hitpoints, the rest are low hp adds. These
   encounters often barely let the warlocks even get all their encounter spells off (I'm including netherrealm, acid storm, and broodlings, here, plus 3 encounter aoes and 2 blue aoes) before at least some of the adds are down. Every mob that is already dead makes the warlock less helpful on that aoe encounter - and of course the group/raid wants to kill them off one at a time to lessen damage to the tanks. This is similar to groups fighting heroic encounters when you have a chanter mezzing the adds - the warlock loses all that glorious aoe dps because of (desired) crowd control.
   
2. Equally strong 'boss' mob multi-encounter. In some cases this is the warlocks heyday, but often the raid wants to split the mobs up... MT takes one far enough away from OT that they do not both AOE the entire raid... well, guess what, if they are far enough away to not AOE the raid, they are far enough the warlock can't aoe...
   

While the devs have worked out a few encounters that let warlocks shine, they are too few and too far between. Game mechanics work against us on most multi-mob encounters. Now, as for the clicky, the problem is the first type of encounter - stop in the middle of battle to change from multi-mob to single target, taking 5 or 10 seconds? You can't do it mid-battle - way too much dps lost. But that little burst dps we had for 20 s disappears over the next 20 s and our overall dps is nothing special.

Secondly, why is there a 30% damage increase - is it just arbitrary? Or was this by design?

We see wizards with 10% more damage, scouts and some tanks have 10% more damage to CAs *or* 30% damage to specific CAs (ones in stealth, back attacks only, etc.).

The devs knew that we had and issue with single target damage, and this was a great idea to help with that. They also figured this fit in with the 30% damage boost category. But it really doesn't fit that category for warlocks. Here is why (side note - I mix T7 and T8 of these spells up all the time... sorry):

1. We only have 3 spells that this works on
   
2. 1 of these spells is a dps mainstay, it will be cast every fight no matter what. For Armageddon, this is simply 30% extra damage. But what is Armageddon on a parse, maybe 5% of total damage (I'm completely guessing) in a typical raid? So thatwould only be a boost of 1.5% damage total. [edit: Parse of SoH (basically all single-target damage) showed Armageddon at 8% total damage, for me, so 30% boost would add 2.4% to my total damage, about the same as +6% crit...)
   
3. Absolution. It is really only worth casting from a cast-time and power perspective with at least 2 mobs, that makes it a little better than distortion. Really you need 3 to jump ahead of our standard single target spells and make it a 'must cast'. With the long cast time often one or more of your extra mobs will die before it's done casting anyway. With 30% more damage, I think it jumps ahead of the completely rediculous dissolve for damage, but is still less power efficient by a third. So it becomes the same thing dissolve now is - cast it if you have plenty of power and NOTHING else to cast. It's only a fill-in spell when you run out of other spells to cast.
   
4. Radiation. This spell is worthless. It's useless until you have at least 3 mobs dps-wise... I think the reason this spell is so **** on damage is that it has a stun component - that's supposed to make up for the low damage. Unfortunately in raids the stun doesn't work on epics. So it's just a **** spell. Add 30% - still useless. You need to add 200%-300% to make me even think about using it on a single target. I still cast it in groups, but only when we need the stuns. Maybe if the damage were doubled on epics to make up for the loss of stun - then it would at least be comparable to Absolution for dps, and any changes to the clickly that made absolution viable would make radiation viable too.

So how does 30% more damage make Absolution and Radiation viable? It doesn't. It puts Absolution around the dps of War Pyre... makes it a fill in ahead of dissolve is all - especially if you took the M2 for acid and only have A3 (acid is much higher dps). Radiation is worthless on single (or even dual) target unless something is done fix it, 30% damage does nothing.

This clicky effect needs something else beyond 30% damage increase if the devs want this to give more than 1-2% total damage increase [edit: about 2.4%]. But what? Others have suggested cast time reduction - I would go another route. I would add 30% damage to all of them, and then add a dot component to Absolution and Radiation (armageddon already has one and doesn't need fixed). If you gave Absolution an extra 100% damage as a dot, and Radiation an extra 200% damage as a dot, over 20 s or so, it would make them viable from a dps standpoint, but by using a dot (which is very warlockish), you can justify more total damage, because if the mob dies or cures it, you lose some of the extra damage. If you aim for total damage about the same as the upgraded Armageddon on the other two (after equalizing for cast times), then you make the warlock on single target a true master of DOTs, not DD damage. Along with fixing War Pyre (see below), this really would create a dot niche for the warlock, which I believe is a better vision for the warlock than the aoe one, given the current game mechanics. The AoEs are still there for those few cases where it really works out, but those are quite limited. [edit: this fix would actually make Absolution and radiation about the same dps as acid is now, perhaps adding 2-3% additional damage per spell to total dps]

This would need to be balanced to get the total dps right. I'm not sure what the devs thought they were aiming for with the original 30% boost on this effect, but let's be clear that it's currently just a percent or two [edit: 2.4% - at 5k that's an extra 120 dps for single targets].

Then there is the cast time/reuse issue of the clicky itself. Others have discussed this. The cast time on the clicky should be instant - or possibly 0.5 s or 1 s, but at 1 s cast time, thats at least 3-4k+ damage lost from another spell I should be casting instead. I need 30% extra damage on armageddon at least once just to make up for that 1 s cast time.... So I favor insti-click. Even if it's like freehand sorcery where you still have to press it when something else isn't casting. Is there a good reason to keep it like it is, which is basically to make the warlock pick just one mode for an entire fight (and have to mess with it constantly inbetween pulls).

I really like the *idea* of the clicky. It's uses the strength of the warlock to make up for the loss of warlock aoe content. It's implementation is just bad due to how the encounter spells work in practice. That's why shifting Absolution and Radiation to DOTs is so perfect in my mind... let's them be high enough damage to actually make an impact, but in a very warlocky way - and makes the extra damage viable as a concept by making it take time to dole out.

Thus ends the thoughts on the clicky.


DISSOLVE and WAR PYRE:

First Dissolve... ugh... what a bad spell.

I'm not sure where this spell was ever supposed to fit in. Using 1100 int, 570 spell mod, 40 recast and 65 crit, the efficiency of dissolve (not counting any additional procs from buffs) is only 942 dps (with crits, A3 version). The M2 of the level 62 Void Absolution group aoe is higher at 1005 - on a single target mob! Both of the blue aoes are higher dps than dissolve, even on a single target, by at least 30%. In fact, the only spell worse than dissolve is the completely awful Nebula/Radiation. Even the cone AOE AA melee attack Static Discharge is slightly higher dps even on a single target (it can hit up to 4). Dissolve is just rediculous. And this is with the 10% extra damage from the AA. The next worst single target spell is War Pyre at 1538, m1, lv 66 (we'll talk about it in a minute). Encase, A3, lv72 is 1609 - (and it has a stun!). Void Distortion from T7, Master, is 1766, Distortion, T8, Adept3 is 1909 (those two have very high power efficiency). Acid, our premiere dot, M2 is
2565. Aura of Void is only behind full length broodlings at 3525 (this is why the resists from it being subjugation hurt so much). (note all these are with their respective full AAs)

Dissolve only has 2 semi-redeeming qualities. It is ok on power efficiency - nothing close to aura, acid, or distortion, but equivalent to flames of velious, war pyre, and encase. That means it's about 50% better than all the aoes on a single target (with 2 mobs all aoes beat it for power efficiency - and apocalyse is the exception being slightly better even on
a single target already!).

The second advantage of dissolve - with it's AA's, it's reuse is really fast!

Well, I'm sorry, but why do I want a fast reuse on a spell that is complete crap? I don't mean partially crap, I mean complete crap. Why do I want to cast an awful spell twice as often?

Maybe this is why warlocks have so many dps problems - I think a lot of average players actually notice the prominence that the game puts on the dissolve line - one of the first spells you get, very first AA in that line, and up all the time with fast reuse, and think that it should be their mainstay spell for damage. Instead, it cripples their dps, cutting it down by at least a third, possibly in half, if they use it whenever it is up. I know that's how I started playing my warlock before I learned better. Which wasn't until I started parsing after I reached 70.

There is a very simple fix to the mess that is Dissolve. Make the AA like the AA for Illusionists. Their similar spell's AA has a
cast time reduction of 50% (instead of reuse reduction). If you cut the cast time in half with full AAs, it would put dissolve on a par with Distortion, master strike, and flames of velious in raw dps vs. cast time. Distortion would still be much more power efficient, flames and encase would still have their slow and stun effects (reasons to be cast, even with similar dps). It really could use more than 10% damage increase in addition, but at least DOUBLING the efficiency would make dissolve a viable spell for the first time from a raiding perspective.

I understand why the reuse was added to the AA... warlocks can run out of spells to cast if not using the aoes (beyond armageddon). Maybe the cast time reductions should replace the reuse, or maybe just be added to them... but cast time reduction I believe would fix dissolve. It wouldn't be top dog, a 'cast every time it's up' like the illusionist counterpart spell (and I understand the necros as well is this way). But it *would* be a solid dps contributor, instead of being left out in the cold.


Which brings me to War Pyre.

War Pyre (forget the name of the T8 - Vaccuum Chamber?). The A3 for the T8 spell is actually slightly WORSE in damage than the master of War Pyre, T7, while it would cost 20% or so more power - so I still use War Pyre - I don't have the master for T8 yet. It's the worst dps of all single target spells, other than dissolve. This is comparing Adept 3 across the board.

War Pyre is a DOT. DOTs are supposed to do more total damage, but take time to do it. War Pyre, however, does not do more total damage. Well, it does do more than dissolve. Maybe that's why it's so bad - maybe someone developed the line comparing it to the dissolve line. So War Pyre starts out low dps, and if the mob dies before it finishes, it's even lower dps. It's also only average in power efficiency. So much for the normal reasons for liking dots - that they do more total damage for the cast time/power required... Compare it to acid and you will see what I mean.

So War Pyre/ Vacuum Chamber really isn't that great a spell. Recognizing that it is a dot, the AA makes it's damage occur faster. That is a commendable, reasonable effect. However, the AA also increases it's REUSE. Now, just like with
dissolve, why would I want my second lowest DPS spell to have a faster reuse? It has no special effect like the stun on Encase. It's not especially power efficient like Distortion. It doesn't do anywhere NEAR the dps that acid does, due mainly to acid's fast cast time.

So I have a dot, which is supposed to do more total damage than a direct damage spell, that in reality only does more damage than the god awful dissolve. All the other DD spells I have - even those with other special effects - are higher damage and higher dps.

So, why do I want a faster reuse? The only reason is if I'm running out of things to cast and it's better to cast than nothing at all. Same issue I have with the reuse bonus for dissolve.

So what is the real fix to this problem, other than reworking the spell itself? Just like dissolve, change the AA to reduce the cast time, instead of reducing the reuse. Still have the dot occur faster, maybe even keep the faster reuse, but add a faster cast time to the AA. If you cut the cast time by 40% with full AAs it would be on a dps par with acid (acid would still be much more power efficient). Then a parse-conscious warlock would be the way a warlock SHOULD be - always keeping their dots up all the time, and DD only comes afterward. Currently, War Pyre is nothing but a low dps dot - which is the opposite of what a dot is supposed to be. It's at the bottom of my list of things to cast (dissolve being *off* the list ).

I'm not sure how much raw dps these two AA changes would give on single target for a warlock on a raid, but I'm fairly certain it would still leave wizards ahead of warlocks on normal fights. The wizards would win the average fight, but when they get a key resist or don't have their biggest hitters up, the more steady damage of the warlock would pull it out. Group encounters, we would have the edge... but there are very few times warlocks truly get to shine in that roll... Thuuga and Overking being the two main encounters I can think of currently. We would still need to manage our dots properly to get the best effect... and that's what I'd like warlock's new vision to be - masters of tier 1 dps dots.



So, those are my issues. I think the small boost in dps from the cast time changes in dissolve and War Pyre AA along with fixing the clicky to adds dot components to absolution and radiation - and giving broodlings some measure of survivability - would really round the warlock out.

Aftershock...Is that fun spell?
That is end of Explosive line
but...Why dmg is low?
now aftershock trigger 40% . (before patch 50%)
that is not a complaint.
need more +dmg
now 200~400. so low.
End of Explosive dmg 200~400? ironical

Griffinhart wrote:

As a pet class I'll answer this , using a mage pet (and because of the AEs in raids I have to mostly) the pet nukes get resisted as well..

LightCC wrote:

Ya ya ya... brainfart. Move along nothing to see here.

Ilucide wrote:

The word of the day? Charm
What makes a charm stick and stay stuck? Most will say it's subjugation more than spell quality and mob level.
Why? Because that's how it used to be, like 2 years ago.
The idea was simple. You're a level 70 necromancer. You see a level 72^^ undead. You know that if he were green con, the charm would reliably land and stay stuck a lot longer. So, beef up your subjugation, which is the core skill of your charm. Base at 70 is 350, with 5 points per level. To delevel the mob by 8 levels (enough to turn him green in relation to your subjugation), you need 390 subjugation. I noticed the same thing with roots, years of noticing I might add.
You achieve 390 and acquire a master charm, but the mob breaks every 45 seconds like clockwork. Why? WHO KNOWS WHY?
I certainly doesn't have ANYTHING to do with subjugation (like it once did). So why should I believe that 1000 disruption is more likely to make a nuke hit home on a yellow mob? I have never seen a dev write that higher skill increases your hit/stick chance. I would agree that you need at least an even level skill (like 350 at L70) to hit an even con mob, but you cant just beef up your skill to "game the system".
If the mob is yellow to you regardless of your skill, my experience shows over and again that boosting your skill beyond your level does zip. Having a master helps, but that's as much "gaming" as you can do without a true debuffer de-leveling the mob for you.

Kyburz wrote:

lol, armageddon is affected... maybe you should check before making so direct a statement.

PS Radiation doesn't count as a spell as it is pointless to use on anything less than three mobs

ScrapperX wrote:

Why? Because the 5-points-is-one-effective-level math hasn't been true for almost 3 years.

You can buff your skills up by (1.5x level) over the cap, 80x1.5 = 120. 120/5 = 24. A 24-level swing in effectiveness makes low-red-cons act like high-grey-cons (with more health)... and that's before you debuff the mob. Think it would be any fun if the game really acted that way? A boost in skill has a much smaller effect, and on a diminishing-returns curve, IIRC. No amount of skill will make a yellow-con mob behave like a green-con one.

If you really can't hold a mob for more than 45 seconds with master1 charm and +40 subjugation over par, I think either (1) there's something so tremendously broken that I don't understand the Necromancer forum not having a 700-post thread about it, or (2) you're exaggerating for effect.

I wish I was exagerating, and what you say is perfectly logical, but that hasnt been my experiencing and I'm not exagerating. I will admit one thing I conveniently left out. Some races, like vampires, appear to be far more resistant to maintaining a charm than others. However, that is a community statistically analyzed opinion, so I dont want to muddy up my rant with player conclusions of the current dynamic.
I haven't heard of diminishing returns associated with skill. I'd be happy to accept it if a dev ever wrote that, but they don't release information like that. My post is not an attempt to drag information out of a dev, nor to bring about change. I was merely flabbergasted that a dev would insert a piece of unsupported misinformation after years of saying nothing on the subject when thousands of man hours of community driven statistical analysis had been spent (quite some time ago at this point) trying to figure out whether or not skill boosting affected stick chance. I dont know why it was supposed to be a secret, and I dont care anymore. It was just a bell ringer reading what Ilucide put in his reply.

LightCC wrote:

Great post, thanks Light. There's a lot to digest there.

One thing I am starting to envy as a wizard now that i see this recent change to the warlock mythical is consistency. Everything about their weapon is consistent and the main attraction of it isn't luck based. Now look at the wizard mythical where you have a 10% chance to double attack - The other day in VP i gained an whopping 230 extra dps from just double attacking spells - this feels a bit under powered.