The MMO Genre is Dying

Discussion in 'Non-Gameplay Discussion' started by ARCHIVED-salty21db, Aug 26, 2012.

  1. ARCHIVED-Filament Guest

    Jayne@Kithicor wrote:
    When I "call home" I go to North Qeynos, though I can now go to South without zoning. Yes, when I zone into Qeynos I enter at Harbor, then I have to zone again to get to North/South, which is where most of my time is spent. The entire consolidation doesn't reduce my zoning. That's the problem, nothing much has changed with regard to zoning in Qeynos.
    Now, take Freeport, for example. Whether I call, or zone in, I can travel to any of the main areas of Freeport without zoning. Much more efficient. I can be in another area of Freeport faster without having to zone.
    So, yes, moving a destination character that was in North to Harbor means I actually have to zone more now than before the revamp.
  2. ARCHIVED-salty21db Guest

    Filament wrote:
    I think where me and you differ is in the fact that I see EQ2 as a pretty decent MMO. My primary quarrels being about soloing being enticed over grouping and such. Other than that aside from tweeks here and there for an older MMO it is pretty good.
    And to me this isn't a f2p vs p2p model difference. It is happening in ALL of the current MMOs. Which was my discussion in the first place. WoW has been a p2p since the beginning and still is and still dumbs down it's content into a solo friendly/accessible mess. The new releases, same thing, minimal content and rushed to the end yet p2p. Imo it's more along the lines of "we know they'll pay the initial cost and maybe the first few months purely off hype and then we can pull them back in a few months later with flashy new things." Why again I stated I blamed the players also. As long as these developers keep making a profit and people keep paying for subpar products they are going to keep doing it. Initial sales is what they're primarily looking at currently. Make a huge sale off of hype, collect for a few months, go free to play model, and people keep buying into it.
  3. ARCHIVED-Filament Guest

    salty21db wrote:
    EQ2 is a pretty decent MMO, because it was developed under the P2P business model, relying heavily on content that couldn't be blown through by a demented hamster on a wheel. It was designed to kick the players butt because they didn't want to have to develope new content every six months.
    Once several EQ2 expansions came out, it was a matter of making it easier for players so they could get through the old content and buy the new expansion. Rise of Kunark, Echoes of Faydwer, et al, as well as the adventure packs, were not free. SOE could only sell them to people that had completed the earlier content, so, in order to increase sales, they made the earlier content easier. In effect, SOE altered their EQ2 business model.
    F2P has now changed the rules once again, there is no need for difficult content in F2P, as sales are made through the cash shop on end game content. The lower levels are the free trial, after that the cost to play starts going up as you level. You will never, ever, ever, see a difficult to level F2P game. So, once EQ2 went F2P, SOE again altered their business model.
    Don't look for any new products to make the investment into the depth of content you once enjoyed after SWTOR and TSW crashed and burned UNLESS they understand the difference in leveling between F2P and P2P.
    EA KNEW they had backed a subscription based game that players could blow through in 30 days, which is why they hyped the game and moved it to their own digital distribution. They hoped they could "hit and run" a profit on "box" sales. Heck, they couldn't not release it, they had far to much money invested by that point.
    Funcom should have known better, but overestimated their hype, and "box" sales were only 200,000 units. Perhaps the playerbase is being taught a new behavior, to look cynically at the hype.
    If developers ever again decide to invest money in developing content, they will have to kick the players butt so they don't blow through the content within 30 days. But then the players will complain there's no "ring bell, get reward". It's a Catch 22 for player retention. So, can the developer gamble with the investor's money?
    I'm pleased that you see my point on "box sales", or, as you refer to it, as initial sales. Hype the product, turn out a barely qualifying hamster wheel game, grab $60 per "box" at 1 million units, then look to the next product. If, by some chance your product "succeeds", rush out more content sales through DLC.
    The players have already been conditioned, just like Pavlov's dogs, to salivate at the hype. The developers have already learned how to cash in on the continuous quest for gear. There's no reason to change, and no change on the horizon.
    I can't tell you how many new game promos I see that show absolutely nothing about the gameplay, they just pan around beautifully rendered scenary. And, unfortunately, the promos I see that do show gameplay are showing me absolute crap.
  4. ARCHIVED-Freejazzlive Guest

    salty21db wrote:
    I don't know what's currently going on with WoW, because I haven't been in-game there since the release of Cataclysm, which I strongly disliked.

    But like I said: even if we restricted the discussion to CURRENT development, I don't think that either Rift nor SWTOR has anywhere near the "depth" -- how ever it's defined -- of gameplay in WoW, much less EQ2. IMO, WotLK alone was superior to at least Rift, if not SWTOR, in terms of actual playable content. Rift was just terrible once you got to the level cap, & IMO SWTOR's "massive content" was a farce.
    So, what you have with both games are pale imitations of a much better game. While Rift still apparently has a healthy population (though I can't figure out why) SWTOR bled subscribers left & right, until now it's already going F2P. Why? Because the developers utterly botched the high-end content, which is PRECISELY the same mistake Trion Worlds made with Rift.
    Beyond that, I don't think you can restrict discussion of these games to "current" content. That's because you can't just get WotLK & Cataclysm & ignore the rest of the game world; it's all still there. What this comes down to is that I agree with SJ, that the MMO genre is in serious trouble because of a significant lack of creativity & imagination on the part of developers, but ALSO because of a jaded, cynical, "I want it all & I want it RIGHT NOW" player base that largely eschews any sort of "challenge" in favor of speeded-up leveling to the level cap & then farming the same instances repeatedly in order to obtain "tokens" with which to acquire gear.

    Sadly, I expect all of these trends to continue.
  5. ARCHIVED-Ahlana Guest

    salty21db wrote:
    Yeah I agree, esspecially with the end part.
    I am enjoying GW2 atm because it is "new". But it isn't new ya know? It is a shinier version of the same game(s) I have already been playing. The content is new, the combat is simplier, and not many quests (so if you hate quests like me.. then this is the game for you haha).
    On the other hand there is no "ride" in it.... so when 80 comes (in less than a few weeks I suspect at this rate) I hope there is more to do than there was in Rift for me. You move so quickly and level so quickly in GW2 you barely have time to look and go.. "oh this place was designed well", before you are shuttled to the next place.
    I mean you get XP for EVERYTHING... rezzing, chopping wood, tradeskilling... EVERYTHING. They pat you on the back for absolutely anything you could possibly want to do, or think of doing.
    In the end I will feel like I got my $60 worth of the game, but it won't be a game that is installed for more than 2 months at this rate.
    I think for some of us, it is just time to give up on MMOs. There most likely will never be a long lasting good one again. They will all be Rifts, SWtOR, and GW2s. Promising new and exciting things, but really just the same thing slight rehashed. Fun for a month or so but then it is back on the shelf with them.
  6. ARCHIVED-Trinral Guest

    Maybe it is not MMOs which are "dying", but people who have been playing them every single day, year after year, that are starting to get tired of them, and need to move on.

    The MMO market is hardly hurting. If anything, there may be some saturation issues, and mentality issues of people who expect brand new titles to have content depths to surpass 7+ year old MMOs (which is rediculous). But otherwise, the pool of incoming young blood, is likely higher than the exodus of outgoing oldies.

    I would say it is far from true that MMOs are dying, it is more a case of MMOs now have to compete for players against a variety of competitors. It is no longer a case of insta-win, because they released a title in a niche market with few competitors. Yes EQ1, I am talking about you.
  7. ARCHIVED-Ahlana Guest

    Avirodar@Oasis wrote:
    I agree in part with this. Some of us older players have been around and are probably getting burned out. But I disagree that we expect brand new titles to have the content depth to surpass a 7+ year old MMO. I expect them to have as much as said MMOs did at the beginning of their life. Which Rift, SWtOR did not. Neither had the content that EQ2 or WoW LAUNCHED with. Rift felt like it was an expansion sized release, I can not speak for GW2 just yet as I have not made it to the end... at the very least it has more newbie areas to start than Rift did, so that is already more content lol.
    I think old timers are getting burned out because they are all the same game with different graphics in the end. But really how do you change it? A slightly different combat system, more in depth way to build characters, or perhaps cinematics so it feels like you are watching more than playing? Each one of these has been tried and in the end the differences are not enough to seperate them from each other.
    No matter how in depth your character speccing is; the min/maxers will find the best spec to use and everyone else will follow suit (Rift), we all saw how awesome cinematics and lightsabers did lol. GW2's only real difference is a slightly simplier combat system and no healer/tanks (and a graphic engine that both looks beautiful and performs super well). In the end all 3 are the same as any other MMO.
    But you are right there are plenty of MMO customers out there, plenty of fresh blood that will likely stick to the first MMO they start for a long while, while us old timers keep looking for something truly fresh and new; though likely we will never find it or when we do will not like it haha.
  8. ARCHIVED-kelvmor Guest

    I have a brilliant idea. Double the developing staff; for every dev you have, hire a new one of similar skill, so that you have two devs for each specialty. Have the original crew work on new content, while the new guys work on fixing bugs.
    Voila. Bugs are fixed without missing out on developing new content/features.
  9. ARCHIVED-Assid Guest

  10. ARCHIVED-salty21db Guest

    Sixten@Crushbone wrote:
    That would be because this post isn't directly at SoE and EQ2 but all developers/games as a whole. I defend SoE to a point because EQ2 is the "best MMO out there atm" and I see more positive posts on WoW forums lol. Which I lol at because the billion dollar company doesn't even come close to releasing the content of EQ2 or heck even some newer MMOs yet people still pay and yet they have positive posts on their forums lol.
    Fact of the matter is I find most gamers, no matter the game, to be very miserable people (not sure what causes them to be) and consistently negative and depressed. Perhaps instead of setting on games all day these people should look to ways to improve their lives?
  11. ARCHIVED-Assid Guest

    perhaps you are right, and perhaps you should look at your own attitude.
    or perhaps the gripe is a sign that the gaming market is severely lacking. theres a hole or two to be filled.
  12. ARCHIVED-agnott Guest

    salty21db wrote:
    Most gamers I'm sure are very happy for one that they are not you or have your troubling outlook of your fellow gamers.
  13. ARCHIVED-Freejazzlive Guest

    salty21db wrote:
    WoW is a good MMO, & Blizzard is a good company. I have nothing at all against either of them.
    I don't play WoW for one big reason: it has the most loathesome player base of any MMO I've played.
    I otherwise largely agree with Ahlana.
  14. ARCHIVED-Raffir Guest

    agnott wrote:
    I think thats kind of broad, Salty. Most gamers don't even post here. Now habitual forumites...well...maybe??
    Not me though...I'm pretty easy going all the time. Replete in the knowledge that its just game...a simple time sink for a bit of playtime after work, lol.
    Raf
  15. ARCHIVED-salty21db Guest

    Raffir wrote:
    Broad as in I said "most" and is from my personal experience. I did not say all or specify any certain person. It is based on my experiences and my opinions.
  16. ARCHIVED-CorpseGoddess Guest

    Well, I'll throw in my two coppers and give a completely different perspective from the ones I've read.
    I played D&D back in the day (I'm 40, closing in on 41). I've played video games since Pong was new. My first MMO was EQ1, which I started playing in 2005, and I loved it. But I was mainly a solo player; I'm generally not much of a social person to begin with, and that translated over into my gameplay.
    I started EQ2 in February 2006, and loved it even more. Now, since then, I've tried most of the new MMO's to come down the pike--AoC, Guild Wars, Aion, Warhammer; none of them stuck. Well, WAR did, but that's because I like the way they do PvP. I'm a PvP sissy--I don't like to lose my stuff, and I don't there. I tried WoW for a grand total of a day and a half--the art style turned me off so badly, and I hated the interface so much, that I uninstalled it and never looked back.
    So, back to back to EQ2. The reason it stuck, the reason I kept coming back to it, was that it was the most perfect fit for me that I had found in a game. The main reason for that being Streppoch, my bruiser. No other class in any other game has suited me so well. I could solo, I could group, I could raid--I could do most of it. I'm not a number-cruncher type of player--I figured out what worked for me, I read forums, and I learned my class by playing her.
    Then there was all the other stuff! Crafting! Harvesting! Decorating! Quests! So much to do! I still haven't done everything I need to on Strep, let alone my alts.
    I play quite a bit, but not every day, and not all day. I'm not "hardcore". I don't go after the best equipment. I don't raid much at all. I noodle about--I quest a lot, I decorate a lot, I craft a lot. In short, I play the game.
    I'm terrible at FPS games--horrible, terrible bad at them. I love games like Dragon Age--fantasy games are my favourite. I did like the dynamic combat in AoC--it was interesting. But it wasn't so complicated or difficult that a clicky-impaired person like me couldn't do it.
    So, there's players like me. Players that don't rush to get to the endgame. Players that like different features, that don't mind microtransactions, players that like to experience all facets of the game, players that like traditional MMO-style things, but maybe want something a bit different--but not *too* different. Players that like to solo a lot--but also like to group. But I want grouping to be my choice--when and where--I don't want it forced on me in order to proceed (I'm looking at you, Aion). Players that like quests, crafting, decorating, raids, items, events--the whole shebang. Players that have things to do outside the game, that have aged, that don't play as much as or the same way as we might have in the past.
    Players that just love to play.
  17. ARCHIVED-Dejablue Guest

    Humans are social beasts. At our core we think and feel "us versus them". This is why sports are so revered in society. We are at war in our every day lives. We have our teams; family, work, friends. Everyone else is the enemy. They are NOT us. We must defeat them or beat them in garnering the spoils of success, if not for ourselves then for our team-mates, family members, co-workers and friends.
    World of Warcraft made a huge, long lasting mistake. They did a 180 during the peak of their subscription growth and destroyed their customer-base. They cannot go back now as their customers have all been converted to instant gratification junkies. Before this turn of events they took the successful Everquest model based on community and teamwork, where we found ourselves grinding out mobs for drops and leveling together out of necessity, and turned it into a low risk, no penalty for failure solo game. So extreme is this departure that currently "raids" of players are banded together with the only goal being to garner loot, personal loot doled out by the MMO pellet dispenser to make sure that everyone is treated equally, everyone is a winner.
    This necessity of equality has spread to include the right to have the same rewards for less play time invested which has led to a solo game where it's players chew through content faster than developers can release it.
    There is plenty of content. Developers simply need to make it more difficult and require groups to complete it. EQ players used to complain that content was released before current content had been completed. What changed was the developers made it too easy. They removed the need to group together to be successful. They removed the point of RPGs going back to pnp DND: Getting together with your team to defeat fantastic enemies.
    We play these games to come together not to socialize, but to overcome challenges we cannot do alone. We come to be part of a team.
    There is one event in WoW that I remember above all else. It pales in comparison anything ever in WoW. The AQ gates opening. The entire server came together to help open those gates. I remember Stature of the Gods banging the gong on Whisperwind server and the server crashing then coming back up and the whole server zerging the incoming bugs that swarmed Silithus. I have been told that the killing of The Sleeper was a similar awe inspiring event in Everquest. These are what we remember. These are successes we earned. These are feats we could not and should not be able to do alone. These are efforts that took initiative and motivation of others, not an instant gratification matching system that sat us in front of a mediocre encounter to meet out our loot and tokens for the week.
    Certainly not all events can be this monumental but they are indicative of why we play.
    MMOs should not be a solo game. Dragon Age and Skyrim meet that need. The core tenant of MMORPGs in the heritage of Everquest is community effort for community reward. It is war. We are not all equal. We are weak or we are strong. You belong to my group and I protect you or you protect me. Everyone else must die. Everyone else must not get the spoils of war. Only our team matters and only our team will get the tag and the kill.
    We do not need fancy gear. We don't need better weapons. We refuse the idea of needing more levels. What we need is a taunt button for our tank, a heal button for our healer, a stab button for our melee, a fireball button for our ranged and a boss that we can barely beat as we wipe our way to victory.
    This is what is missing from the shambles of current "MMO"s.