The Mayong Origin Problem

Mary the Prophetess wrote:

The fact that other worlds exist in the EQ universe is not only plausible, it is indisputable. The Obelisk of Lost Souls actually names a few of them, and the origin of Rodcet Nife involves an entire civilization on another planet. It is not a coincidence that Rodcet looks like an alien (though that is not a stylistic choice that I would have made).
Not only are there other worlds, but entire races live among the Planes themselves. There are plenty of mortal races which Anashti could have tried to make immortal by creating the Ewer without her ever even knowing about Norrath.
Secondly, the Ydal were created by Innoruuk's blood poured from the Ewer of Sul'Dae. They were not first created and then exposed to the Ewer by Innoruuk. We have no idea whether Innoruuk intended to make them an immortal race, his motivations in regard to the Ydal have not been revealed. All we know for certain is that Innoruuk used the Ewer to create them, then they all ended up turning into vampires and killing each other off. Perhaps this was Innoruuk's plan from the start? Who knows?
What we do know, from the very mouth of a developer, is that Mayong is older than any of the common player races. This means that Mayong's race, the Ydal, predate the Elder Age. Essentially, this means that the Ydal had to exist at least as far back as the Age of Scale, during which time Innoruuk supposedly was not yet aware of Norrath. Whether Mayong became aware of Norrath before Innoruuk is up for debate, as we have no definite timeline for exactly how or when Mayong first came to Norrath.

@Cheeseman
If the sequence of events which you are proposing is correct, then there are certain facts which we must accept:
1. Since the Ewer was used in the creation of the Ydal, and since you are suggesting that the Ydal were in existence on the Plane of Hate prior to Veeshan's arrival in Norrath, then logically the Ewer must have been in existence before Veeshan's arrival too.
2. Since the Ewer was used in the creation of the Ydal, and since you are proposing that the Ydal were created before Anashti's banishment, then either Anashti lent the Ewer to Innoruuk, or Innoruuk stole it from Anashti to use, or Anashti was in on the creation of the Ydal. No matter which is true, the Ewer was back in Anashti's hands for her to use later on Norrath.
3. Anashti created the Ewer. Anashti created the Ewer to cure death. Anashti did not get banished by the Gods for creating undeath until ages had passed on Norrath.
4. The reason for Anashti's banishment was for creating undeath. Using the Ewer is what created undeath.
5. In order to cure death, you need to have mortals to cure. Since there were no mortals on Norrath prior to the arrival of Veeshan, Anashti must have created the Ewer to cure mortals 'somewhere else'. If there are no mortals to cure, then there is no reason to create the Ewer in the first place.
6. Using the Ewer created undeath on Norrath. Using the Ewer created vampirism on the Plane of Hate. One would assume that if the Ewer were used on mortals somewhere else it would also have created undeath there. However, for some reason Anashti was not banished by the Gods for creating undeath somewhere else.
7. The whole of this scenario rests on one statement by Vahlar to the effect that Mayong is older than any of the character races on Norrath. That includes the Elves and the Dwarves, (as well as the Kedge and the Giants which were created at the same time as the Elves and the Dwarves), but not necessarily the Dragons.
Given all of the above, it seems to me that a far simpler explanation is that Holly mis-spoke.

I agree!

I think you're in the ballpark here. Since I started this thread way back when, I'll add in my working theory...

• Anashti created the Ewer in ages unknown, before the Gods came to Norrath.
• Each of the Gods of that time had created (or adopted?) servitor races.
• Inny was in a bind...Hate is not exactly a force conducive to creation or fostering; mostly he had to corrupt others.
• This probably got him in trouble a lot.
• To put a stop to that, he figured he needed a little extra 'oomph' to back him up...
• So, the Ewer. I'd be surprised if Anashti even knew what he was up to; he probably did the deed in secret...
• ...and accidentally tainted the Ewer in the process. Hate tends to do that to what it touches.
• So then, Norrath.
• Eventually, conflict with the dragons, and some need to cure the results...
• ...yeah, you see where that's headed.

In short, a fusion of the original and new origins of undeath--Anashti took the fall for what Innorruuk did, wittingly or not.
I suspect it was all fairly close together. One possiblity I'm kicking around is that the Ydal were intended for the colonization of Norrath, but the unintended results turned up...and the Ydal got hastily relocated to the Plane of Hate so as to cover Inny's tracks (and keep him from getting chucked into the Void)...and that was when they showed their true nature. Mayong then escapes from the collapsing Mystmyr (back to?) Norrath, with a hatred of dragons and a healthy distrust of the gods.
Again, not a lot to work with, but that's how I arrange the pieces so far.

Anaogi@Permafrost wrote:

I like the theory that ewer was created long ago, but only utilized/attempted to cure death outright later on norrath.

Saying ydal creation tainted ewer is a cool twist.

if river of life is really about undeath and not stream of conscousness of souls, that is too bad. the river that flows thru the celestial worlds. river of life...

i like creation myth like this. the nameless makes major planes, and rhoen theer, gives rhoen theer 2 artifacts(soulfire/claymore). major planes manifest elemental gods. elemental gods create planes of influence/gods of influence. rhoeen theer comissions anashti(influence god of health) to create river for souls to enter norrath (and exit to ethernere). she creates artifact, the ewer, (from some special materials from rhoen theer) as tool for accomplishing her project. she uses ewer to create connection to celestial worlds, now playing board is set. no current use left/known for ewer.
gods makes races, inny is only a destructive force, cant create, uses artifact on a drop of his blood, taints ewer, smuggles it back to anashti. bertoxXULOUS ascends to god of influence (who was disease before that-maybe thats one of gods theer killed, how convenient its from plane opposite anashtiHEALTHISEASE). later on anashti decides to take on a project (heretical project from theers view btw, imbalancing health/disease), to cure death completely, she tries using her artifact, undeath results, whether from taint or its just a bad idea. she gets banished, rodcet (xulous?) ascends to god of influence.

alternate use for ewer is discovered, besides making river of life, making ydal, making sul'dae...making vampires.
actually making vampires was a use discovered by the guy who brought ewer to takish-haz, BEFORE anashti was banished, thats before sul'dae right? so vampirism is disconnected from her project that got her banished(undeath is diff from vampirism/or a superset of vamp).

i dont like the theory that anashti made the ewer for the original purpose of solving death for takish-haz. its too unambitious a role for the artifact. so did ewer make ydal immortal? did it cure death? did it make them all 'undead'? technically they could have been undead, even if they killed each other, since undead can perma kill each other.

either way, the connection between ewer, undeath, and vampirism is tenuous. it seems 'undeath' didnt occur until takish-haz, when anashti tried to solve death permanently. a different project then mere immortality, which dragons enjoy, and it appears myong as well.

1 question: why didnt myong die? does he only make mini=me vampires by having them suck his blood, but never partaking of others blood? was he created from a first batch drop before ewer was fully tainted? or were only loyal ydal granted vampire ritual from ewer shortly after their creation? could say ewer creation + vamp ritual w/ewer = extinct undead. a ritual myong declined, so he lived.
my goal is apotheosis, so I have a few projects of my own in game. been conducting research, and experiments on my disciples(alts). there are several open planes of influence, afaik.
I almost have every book from nizari, which contains much information on the xulous, and is next door to Zebuxoruk who lives in shin. some day i may publish my in game house, containing my gigantic library, along with my own research notes, speculations, conclusions, efforts. personally i suspect lichdom may be involved somehow, but instead of possessing yourself into a single artifact, you possess yourself into a plane itself. i suspect zeb went the easy route with mana(plane of mana?). mana is ever present in norrath, and created the behemoths out of nothing at all before veeshan ever arrived. great way to regenerate yourself if you dont have a plane/demiplane.

I think it is important to note that the dev stated that Anashti was banished for "unwittingly" introducing undeath to Norrath. It does not say that she was banished for inventing undeath in general, but specifically for bringing it to Norrath. This may or may not be an important distinction, but it bears mentioning. Also, this statement implies that she didn't bring undeath to Norrath on purpose, which would imply one of a number of possible scenarios:
1) She didn't know what the actual effects of the Ewer would be and undeath was the result of her experiment. This would imply that she hadn't used the Ewer previously and it was a more recent invention.
2) She was somehow mislead about what the effects of the Ewer would be, and was therefore the victim of a deception. This seems unlikely, since Anashti seems to not have any particular grudge against anybody for such a deception, and has embraced undeath as her own creation.
3) The Ewer malfunctioned somehow, and ended up doing something she didn't expect. This could mean that the Ewer and the Fyr'Un originally had a different purpose, and were later changed into the current state by some means. Perhaps Anashti created the Ewer long ago as the source of the Fyr'Un, which was a river of healing and refreshment, and it was only her later attempt to grant true immortality that changed it into the source of undeath? Or, as Anaogi postulated, perhaps another deity (like Innoruuk) tainted the Ewer so that it's powers were altered in some way, unbeknownst to Anashti?
4) The Ewer was functioning as intended elsewhere, and only affected Norrath by accident. This would imply that Undeath was the original goal of the Ewer, and that it had already been used on other worlds/planes. In this case, it was not so much the invention of undeath that got Anashti banished, but the fact that she allowed undeath to come to Norrath and mess with what so many other gods had been working on.

ratbastard wrote:

My comments above in red.

These last fews post do raise an important point about Bertoxxulous and Lxanvon - Anshati'Sul must have created the Ewer and been banished before the point of Bertoxxulous's creation and Rodcet's transcendence but it's difficult to place the Ruins of Lxanvon lore in the timeline

MixxitNDance_Live wrote:

of course she was banished no later than rodcet ascension, but how is anashti banishment before bertoxx rise?

i would argue xulous were during age of scale when no other humanoid races were around to record history. a godless humanoid race plopped down in the middle of norrath before most (if not all) gods seeded norrath. norrath existed long enough for mana infused universe to autospawn the behemoths before veeshan ever came. surely norrath wasnt first planet gods of influence bickered over. planet hopping xulous beat gods to norrath? sounds like jel'reth.


side note, assuming rodcet and bert are same race (is that rumor or fact?)
bertoxxulous rose from the destruction of the xulous, who were a race on norrath during age of scale. they were a bamf race of dragon warriors who worshipped their ancestors (very asian tbh, like shin), so bertoxx impersonated their ancestors and put on a xulous corpse outfit and got their king to do some icky ritual. resulting disease destroyed them all. would be crazy to find out he used the ewer on them!

big question there is whether bertoxxulous name is result of him doing them in and he is jel'reth, or if he is xulous also, or whether they are in fact the same race. still its interesting that jel'reth are only known race to ascend to god of influence, and they are of same order (influence) and spectrum (health-disease). ydal to demiplane of blood, zeb(dont know his race) to demiplane of knowledge?

the biggest mystery there is the timeline of the jel'reth race, how bertoxxulous is from same race as rodcet, yet they ascended at different times.

if bertoxxulous is not xulous, what was he doing on norrath at that point in time. if the races are 1 and the same, it just means there would have to be other jel'reth societies in the universe to continue reproducing to produce rodcet at a later date (or rodcet was somehow immortal/long-lived before his ascension). there is pretty strong evidence of interplanetary alliance/communication.

what kind of race worships their ancestors anyway...races are created by gods, who in turn expect to be worshipped. are there any gods of influence so indifferent to abandon their creation like veeshan? or possibly a bored god who descended from godhood after creating them to live out a mortal life and pass into ethernere and explore the beyond...

i think myong only descended from godhood for 1 reason, take another bite at the apple. he didnt like being a lesser god, lesser than both bertoxx and rodcet. he wants a queen too, propagation seems to be a key to unlocking power and serious goal of the gods. if boredom was his driving force he would test out death and go past deathtoll tower.

ratbastard wrote:

It is really a shame that Vhalen (et al) have moved on. I know there are those here that are acquainted with them personally, and it is possible they still stop by here from time to time anonymously.
I don't know if they have legal prohibitions from commenting on what they originally intended to lore to say, I would guess there are, as well as a personel professional courtesy to those who shape(d) the lore after their departure.
Still, if only we could see those lost tomes, (now probably gathering dust in a storage box somewhere).......just a glimpse...just once.....
/sighs

Mary the Prophetess wrote:

The man in this video saw those tomes and look what happened to him - some things just aren't meant to be known!

had to go back to my books to get this, but 'the necropolis of lxanvon volume I" makes some statements that contradict a lot of the anashti didnt know bert, no races but dragons in age of scale theory. -------------------------------------------- The Necropolis of Lxanvon and the Arrival of the Plague Bringer In a Norrathian age long past, when dragons ruled the lands, seas, and skies, an ancient race did spring forth from the will of an unknown god. They were a cunning and powerful race of beings, able to survive in a harsh world ruled by the scaled children of Veeshan. The true name of this extinct civilization has been lost to the mists of time, the evidence of their existence buried and all but destroyed by the elements and the forces of change. The eldest of dragons sometimes whisper tales of this lost race of beings who were the first to stand against and slay the great children of Veeshan. They speak of them to their young, as a human mother would tell ghost stories to her child. The dragons whispered tales of a great kingdom of wicked yet noble beings that built cities from the bones and sinew of the slain children of Veeshan. This is one such tale, passed down to the scribes of New Tanaan many years past by the dragon sorcerer Ulvaxazoviak. Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis to house their dead kings. The crypts of the necropolis were fashioned from preserved remains of slain dragons and it was called Lxanvon, which means in the tongue of the Xulous, 'Kings Rest'. As the necropolis filled with the dead Xulous royalty, honored and revered in death as much as in life, a festering evil began to take over in the lowest bowels of the crypts of the kings. The Xulous, through their adoration and reverence of their rotting kings, their defilement of the dead children of Veeshan, and their dependence on the deaths of dragons for the expansion of their kingdoms did unknowingly bring a powerful and ancient evil to Norrath. As years passed, the evil presence in the bowels of Lxanvon grew stronger, and there, within the rotting corpses of those ancient kings, Bertoxxulous was born. -------------------------- i have a hard time saying either 1) bertoxx was ascended after anashti banishment 2) xulous werent around during age of scale. if you disagree or see a contradiction, could you please say why, with source/references i can check? the reason i think its relevent to this thread 1) second example of age of scale humanoids (myong said he saw veeshan lay her eggs) 2) debunk anashti timeline relative to ewer creation (date unknown) and her banishment: i contend ewer was created long before norrath. after all, didnt malkonis the vampire have possession of ewer, bring it to the elves, which they recovered and then anashti used to get banished? seems ewer was created, then ydal, then malkonis, then anashti cure/banishment.

I'll have a bash at answering this for you
ratbastard wrote:

*edit* before you ask your next quest if mayong was a xulous - a dev has already debunked that

Meirril wrote:

And mine in green...

too much in those books points to age of scale. i dont think it meshes with anashti's claim she doesnt know of bertox. imagery of dragons roaming the lands, ruling the skies from age of scale is almost identical to era of xulous. i would prefer plot twist that anashti is lying, otherwise "did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis"(necropolis of Lxanvon volume I) basically demands xulous before elves of tunare(before humans, before qeynos), which demands BEFORE anashti banishment. anyway, the perspective some have that dragons were first and solitary is not attractive to me. we already know behemoths were here first, yet dragon creation stories claim otherwise. i came across another mention of xulous from http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=we...d=103&ss=xulous honestly i couldnt find any credentials for the source. seems to be saying rodcet came to norrath (qeynos) hunting diseased planet hopping xulous. IMO appears to be different chapter in xulous lineage than necropolis of Lxanvon. necropolis and qeynos are almost on top of each other geographically. asking them be contemporaries is a bit much to ask, from either voices viewpoint. i say its more reasonable to assume he was pursuing another branch of the race than what bertoxx had doomed, in a different epoch.

Here are some facts that allow the xulous, the ewer of sul'dae and bertoxxulous to exist in the age of scale
1) Zebuxorok was ascended to a god by Druzzil Ro but he also gave the unholy writ to the Iksar during the Age of Monuments so it goes to stand that his race existed in or before the age of scale (i'll say in as i like to think the dragons were here first)
2) In the age of monuments the iksar had their very own vampire called Chosooth so vampirism was around by that point
3) The Xulous, originally from antonica were warped away to another plane. It's possible their new twisted version made by bertoxxulous crossed to other worlds from that place - it's also possible they returned after the shissar, tanaanites, and other mortals started entering the planes and that would explain rodcets return at Qeynos
4) We know that the Xulous were one of the first to fight the dragons, so you can put them in or near the age of scale
Ignore this, my timeline is somewhat messed up as I had the Shissar as in the Age of Scale

I was under the impression that the Age of Scale was the period between Veeshan depositing her children and claiming Norrath, and the First Council creating their races (which began the Elder Age). If this is the case, there were no Iksar then, only dragons on the surface and whatever stuff Brell dumped in the Underfoot. The Iksar didn't come into being until the Age of Monuments, according to my understanding.
The theory we are discussing is whether the Xulos lived during the Age of Scale, and if so, why they are not talked about in the well-known creation myths.
I would like to say also that all this stuff about the Behemoths is very likely untrue. Lore of Fauna books are attributed to a specific in-character writer, and are not "word of god" lore. Heck, the book even says that the writer's colleagues disagreed with his theory. Not only that, but the writer says that the dragons lived in fear of the behemoths, who were capable of single-handedly demolishing entire dragon settlements. Beasts of such terrible power are not mentioned anywhere else, not in draconic lore, not in the lore of the giants (who would very likely have been happy to chronicle the defeats of their hated rivals), not in any racial creation myths or any other stories from that era. Based on the data available, I'm going to have to conclude that Prof. Romiak Jusathorn is just wrong.

You're right sorry my timeline was messed up and i've moved that over - not sure how that got like that but it's now messed up my dates a little!
As for discussing Zeb and Bertox, Anashti'Sul the Xulous and Xul'Varien:
The Xulous (and because of this conversation, Bertoxxulous which then places the Ewer before the Xulous) can still have existed before the time of Takish'Hiz
The crypt was originally built upon Antonica in an age long past to house the dead kings of a long dead ancient race
Known as The Founder, the first king was the greatest of all the kings buried within the crypt. He carved his kingdom out of a wild land and forged it with blood and steel
They were a cunning and powerful race of beings, able to survive in a harsh world ruled by the scaled children of Veeshan
The dragons whispered tales of a great kingdom of wicked yet noble beings that built cities from the bones and sinew of the slain children of Veeshan
their dependence on the deaths of dragons for the expansion of their kingdoms did unknowingly bring a powerful and ancient evil to Norrath
Many ages ago, in a time that only the spirits of the ancestor dragons can recall, a long dead ancient race, The Xulous they are called in the tales of my kind, did build upon the lands that would become Tunaria a great necropolis
The ancient dragons watched from afar as the mists cleared, revealing only a barren and broken landscape where the necropolis had once lied
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As we can see here - the lands that 'would become' tunaria - a race, that 'only the elder dragon spirits can recall' gave birth to Bertoxxulous and then were summoned away by their new deity to the Plane of Disease
This area, no doubt 'The Dead Hills' is where the Jal'Raeth are all over in EQOA and Envar, the place their race was fascinated with death

Now Anashti'Sul definately says that Xul'Varien was the old Lord of Pestilence and we know the End Times of the Xulous on Antonica was the birth of Bertoxxulous.
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Now, assuming what she said is true - we can now fast forward in time to the height of the Elven Empire as mentioned in the Tales of Maj'Dul lore and we can see:
It began long ago in the days when the Dal roamed the land and the sand was a lustrous green. This was the Elddar the great forest from which all sprang. It was within the majesty of this green that the Dal came to exist
Haldinous of Rynthele lived a great grand life, sculpting for many empires and telling tales of dead hills. He lived a long and prosperous life after escaping the hills, but his work there would lead the evil Mal’Ahkt’s hands around the frail neck of the sculptor
The land that was barren drained all creatures of life and the sculptors knew of this, but did their art for the protection of Norrath.
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We can see here that the elves kingdom was still 'a lustrous green' they were telling tales of the 'dead hills' that were already a land 'barren and drained all creatures of life'
So this theoretically places Bertoxxulous before the time of the Elves and because of this Anashti'Sul before the time of the Elves meaning she must have created the Ewer before even the Dead Hills were around (and my guess is, she did this whilst combatting Xul'Varien)
On a side note it makes you wonder if the word Xul means something related to disease as the Xulous and Xul'Varien share a similar name and both are involved with disease and death at some point

Just to summarise the above i see the order as:
AGEOFSCALE - Veeshan comes to norrath
ELDERAGE - Other gods notice norrath
ELDERAGE - Xulous are created
ELDERAGE - Jal'Reath are created
ELDERAGE - Ewer of Sul'Dae is created
ELDERAGE - Anashti'Sul is banished
ELDERAGE - Elves arrive
ELDERAGE - Innoruuk uses the Ewer of Sul'Dae
ELDERAGE - YDal are created
ELDERAGE - Mistmoore is born
ELDERAGE - YDal fight amongst themselves
ELDERAGE - Xul'Varien loses his power / possibly banished
ELDERAGE - Bertoxxulous is born
ELDERAGE - Xulous transcend to plane of disease
ELDERAGE - Ja'lReath become obsessed with death in Envar
ELDERAGE - Rodcet ascends to Deity
ELDERAGE - Elves are flourishing as a race
ELDERAGE - Takish'Hiz is founded
ELDERAGE - Elves explore the Dead Hills
ELDERAGE - Elvish king and queen are snatched by Innoruuk
AGEOFMONUMENTS - Dark Elves are created
AGEOFBLOOD - Takish'Hiz falls
LOSTAGE - Combine Empire forms
*Edit* for a full list of the events so far: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...1abEVlVkE#gid=0