The Age of Scale overlapping with the Elder Age & Human creation?

As some may know, I'm since some time searching through all the Norrath lore out there, putting it in Excel, all with references to avoid the problem of hear-say and misinterpretations as much as possible. The lore is often written ambiguous after all.
I'm pretty confident meanwhile that the Age of Scale overlaps at least with the Elder Age if not expands beyond it - and the humans were created/enlightened in it too.
Here is why:

1. The Shissar were killed by the Greenmist almost 2000 years before the rise of the first Combine Empire. http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/encyclopedia-shissar-vol-i/ According to some Dev called Gregory the Combine Empire rose 4800 AN http://eq2.wikia.com/wiki/EverQuest_Story_Timeline. That dates the Greenmist to 2800 AN or a bit more - by which they had enslaved the Iksar for 1000 years, which makes the enslavement of the Iksar start around 1800 AN.

2. The Age of Scales (domination of the world by scaled creatures, mostly dragons - that does not exclude other races existing!) lasted around 3000 years http://everquest.allakhazam.com/qgen/WesternWastes.html That means already 1. is before the end of the Age of Scale by far.

3. The kobolds were created in the age of scale by Brell, they became very powerful mages and build a big city and monuments for their king Gkra and Brell (that takes a while) http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22773 & http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22771 and the first pact was made (for the gods Tunare, Prexus and Rallos Zek to create their races and Brell to keep silent about the kobolds but create the dwarfs) when the kobolds did not manage to thwart the domination of Veeshans brood. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22772 That first pact was still during the Age of Scales. http://eqvault.ign.com/wiki/index.php/Norrathian_Timeline

4. I'm even believing that the age of scales did not end with the pact (or it did not last 3000 years firm) because EQOA was supposed to start according to official lore 500 years before EQ1. Ingame time at release of EQ1 was 3075 AE (after enlightenment of barbarians to humans) so EQOA release was around 2575 AE. Now EQOA released with Bayle II king and Antonica still named Tunare, that leaves with the official Maps of Myrist book dates with the enthronisation of Bayle II 5191 AN and Bayle III enthroned (and Antonica already named such) 5240 AN only a window of 50 years for the time of EQOA (actually less if he did not rename Tunaria directly before his death). So lets say he did it at the end of his reign, than 5240 AN would be around 2575 AE ingame time. That means 0 AE is 5240 AN - 2575 years, makes the enlightment from the barbars happen in the year 2665 AN. Which means if the Age of Scales lasted until 3000 AN ... the humans were enlightened 335 years before it ended. And the enlightenment of the humans started already the Lost Age - with the Age of Blood and Age of Monuments already having happened.
That in turn means the second pact of the gods must have taken place already at this time by quite a bit. Because the Barbars were created later than the second pact by the Marrs http://eqvault.ign.com/wiki/index.php/Norrathian_Timeline.

5. The second pact was 300 years after king Gkra of the kobolds died. http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22769 That means some years after the first pact (Brell abandons the kobolds and the empire crumbles, Grak dies) plus 300 years to make the second pact. If the Barbars were created after the second pact previous to their enlightenment and the human enlightenment was around 2665 AN according to 4. the second pact must have been before the 2665 AN, probably by quite some time. But lets say it happened 2665 AN for the sake of it, then we have the first pact at least 300 years earlier, makes 2365 AN. Of course if we take in consideration 1. than we already have the Iksar created before 1800 AN anyway (way earlier, that works with the calculations in 5. that are extremely conservative but should date earlier). And the Iksar were created from Cazic Thule so that can work too.

The only thing that collides with this all is the TSO preview which claims that the Serilisian Empire rose 2300 years ago, which means ingame time TSO release being around 6440 AN the rise of the empire was around 4100 AN. http://www.lorelibrary.com/?page=website&wid=163&ss=empire
Was there a second Serilisian Empire besides Venril Sathir's I'm not aware of? If that would be 3100 AN the SE rose that would work, because the Greenmist was 2800 AN plus a few, could have been 3000 AN too, the phrasing leaves quite some room there.

Did you consider: Who names the Ages?

Age of Scale is the Dragon term for their domination of Norrath. "When" it ended would be entirely subjective as you pointed out in #4 If the Gods decide the Ages then certainly they began their first Age during the Age of Scale causing them to overlap. As for the Dragon's, I doubt they ever sat down long enough with one of the playable races to agree "Okay, our Age is over. What do you want to call this one?"

It's kinda like the Roman Empire. It didn't really end with the fall of Rome, but a thousand years later with the fall of the Eastern Empire. But not all history books record it that way, at all.

Just my 2cp


edit: Can't find the reference but I thought a Dev once claimed the Age of Scale lasted longer than all the other Ages combined? Hrmmm. Anyways, appreciate all your work. I hope one day the Pacts and the Timeline are a little better explained.

Good point Jait and I absolutely agree.
What drives me here to make this post is a) see if people have other references contradicting my calculations above. And b) ... so far ALL the timelines existing for EQ1 and EQ2 made by players place everything after the 3000 years claimed to be the duration of the Age of Scales. That goes so far that despite claims of the Iksar to be enslaved for around 1000 years and similar rather factual statements, these are cut short to 600 years for example to "fit" into the remaining time frame until today (or EQ2 release time, as since that day hundreds of ingame time have already passed ... Antonia is doing remarkably well lol).
So in a way my above post is a bit heresy, as it places a lot of the earlier history of other races much earlier and inside the Age of Scale.

the problem is you are using the in game time used by /time to based your calculations, and that ingame time is entirely subjective. there are people on other servers that if they did /time they'd be thousands of years behind or ahead of you.

the idea is: V marks norrath and starts the age of scale. the age of scale continues until Brell and the first pact. these races were put on norrath specifically to fight V's influence. thus, the entire dominion of the world by the Dragons/wurmkin ends with the first pact, thus ending the Age of Scale, where the dragons ruled everything...and begins the Elder Age, where the oldest non Dragons races emerged. the fall of the Shissar could easily occur during the Elddar age. or any age between Elder and Lost Age, when the Combine empire was formed. I think that includes the ages of blood and monuments.

Hm no Rainmare, I don't use the ingame time subjectively, I compared it between different servers and take the old timepoints that overlap. They fit nicely. Which servers lags behind thousands of years or is ahead of the others as you claim please?
And I don't use the ingame time usually, I use the AN time from official sources plus the times giving in years in lore books. The A.E. (ingame) version is only done every so often if there is actually a AN reference overlapping with an event we have the AE reference for.

Last but not least:
Just because other races are created does not mean the ruling of scaled ones is broken. Before Brell came to create his first race, the kobolds, there were already the Shissar and it seems even Mayong existing and definitely several other creatures roaming the lands below grounds - sources:
* http://web.archive.org/web/20100821...ony.com/news_article.vm?id=50410&month=042007 (it makes sense too, "scales" means anything with scales, not just dragons, so the Shissar were already ruling while the dragon just grew and organized their strength, the Iksar are scaled too - all fits with the above calculation)
* http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22773 (the dwarf were the race Brell created officially in the first pact, the kobolds was more than 300 years before the first pact http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/item.html?item=22769 )
* http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/2011/11/11/everquest-atlas-maps-of-myrist-castle-mistmoore/ Mistmoor castle exists already before the dwarfs are created in the first pact
* http://loreofnorrath.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/shiliskin/ The Shiliskin and several other creatures existed already in Darkhollow when Brell arrived the first time to create the kobolds - which is why he went to Underfoot and not Darkhollow

Once again: read the lore (and all of it) carefully and you see many things fit nicely but some statements turn out not literal. One of them I believe is the claim that the Age of Scale ends the moment Brell starts his creation spree. And that claim makes not a lot of sense anyway. You are right, the Dragons emerged when they realized the "lesser races" were maybe not so lesser and acted imprudent in their eyes. Still this took quite a while according to lore - and makes sense - before they finally overcame their arrogance to dismiss them entirely.

First: the Maps of Myrist are a less than reliable source of information. A lot of player-created lore made its way into the book which is a big reason the book isn't available still. I can't call anything you get from this reliable.

It is also interesting to note that Veniril went around capturing giants and frogloks for slaves. Frogloks wouldn't exist until after Mithanial Marr was captured and half of his divine Gift of Life was spread over innothule swamp. That would be only a few months before Erollisi gave birth to the Barbarian race. How long did it take the froglok to expand to Kunark? Maybe they arose there at the same time, but how long did it take the population to grow enough for them to be enslaved? Either way, we're talking about an event that happens many ages later. Heck, giants as slaves implies after the Rallosian Army and the Rathe curse hit them, but Frogloks is much later than that.

Not saying you're wrong but why ?
We don't know enough about giant's history to exclude a pre-curse settlement (or even a "native" population) in Kunark.
Good point about Froglocks tho.

It is hard to imagine pre-curse giants being captured. The only giants not affected by the curse of the Rathe were the giants on Velious. It seems like the further giants made it from the center of the curse (Tunaria, Rathe Mountains) the less affected they were. That could explain why the Velious giants still used magic and have a high level of crafting skill.

I'm trying to remember, there is an old story of one of the continents populaton of giants being the result of a group of giants fleeing the curse and being blown off course. I think that is the Velious population but it could of also been the Kunark group.

The only thing I take from the Maps of Myrist are the AN dates for birth, ascension and death of the Bayles. These have been used by Vahlen in the past it seem so should be ok?
Everything else is ingame lore books, event texts (Ragna's page is an important source for me for these two, thanks Ragna!), comments from devs on forums. But I accept only information I find sources for in the net. And I have a graded system: What people/NPC say life I use from he release of the NPC (EQ2, expansion they popped up, ingame time for starting point), what books say I use only for timespan definitions (books can say "one year ago" but be written 500 years ago") and otherwise the dates tentative. When things start to overlap or contradict I use the majority sources. Surprisingly with all the massive amount of lore out there now there ARE usually several references time wise for the same event and often they do work out if read carefully and avoiding assumptions.

Good point on the froglocks, they are one of the story lines I haven't been able to fit into the timeline I'm building at all yet, too much ambiguity.

For the giants: you refer to this? http://eqvault.ign.com/wiki/index.php/Velious_Zones
Venril could have captured them when he was a lich. So that can have been veeeery late. Does not collide with the creation of the Froglok. And in the timeline that shapes up from all my reading the human enlightenment from the Barbars was very early on too.

I work on translating the first "hard numbers only" tentative version of the timeline to English and put it into Google Docs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqTC48mbaJiHdDYtXzJhcDc0OGRIZHZkMTg2RE1oQ1E
Very rough first outline, includes only where I have factual numbers that I'm confident should work. Bold letters I am really sure, red letters - unclear, might be wrong lore statement.

That sounds about right for the giants. It also put the end of the Age of Scale not in terms of the decline of the Dragon's power, but rather that other races were placed on Norrath. That sounds like a very reasonable way to distinguish the end of the Age of Scale.

Venril would of needed to capture giants and froglock while he was alive. He wasn't revived as a Lich until shortly before adventurer's first stumbled onto Kunark in EQ1. His ritual to become a lich was completed by Burynai hundreds of years later, after the fall of the Sitharian Empire during the Cabilis Empire.

The Ethernaught Bayle is *not* one of the successors of the Qeynos Royal line. His son is probably the one that starts it but that is only hinted at and never confirmed. Heck, could be several generations down the line from that son. Bayle (the Ethernaught) was kicked out of the village of Oceangreen at the beginning of the Ethernaught storyline.

Think I hit it up above where in the Velious blurb it says the Age of Scale ended when other races were placed. Perty sure that includes Shissar and the rest of the non-Veeshan placed "races". Heck, I'm half convinced that plants didn't exist until Tunare came along.

The 5 tribes of Iksar existed since the fall of the Shissar empire till today. Even as one empire, most Kunark Iksar recognize tribal loyalties and their own heritage. When the Sitharian Empire fell, it was due to tribal conflicts.

The Combine Empire was lead by a human. One singular man. Katta. The Empire rose and fell during a single human lifespan. No magic was used to prolong his life (until the assassination attempt). The Combine Empire did not last hundreds of years. When Seru attempted to assassinate Katta it triggered a civil war which ended with the most powerful vassals of both sides stranded on Luclin in a stalemate. Seru himself "survives" till adventurers arrive by using magic to stop time in his room while his followers finish the campaign he started.

Antonia is somewhere in her late 20s to early 30s. She isn't hundreds of years old! While she has a little elf blood in her, she isn't a half-elf. Model is clearly human.

The middle section of this website is a very accurate timeline.

http://lorenorrath.free.fr/timeline.php

The timeline linked previously seems to have been distorted by the Shissar and Kunark lore.

http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read.php?link=rok_history.

What you don't seem to understand is that the Shissar only ruled before the Dragons ON Kunark NOT Norrath. Dragons existed for almost a thousand years on Velious before any other race was ever created. One faction; the Ring of Scale; left Velious for Kunark after the other Gods began to leave their creations on Norrath. .

Norrath's timeline does not start with the Shissar. In fact the Shissar did not even exist until the Age of Monuments.

This second timeline is better, but I wouldn't rely on it for accuracy. I have major issues with the placement of Iskar history. Seriously, the entire Sebillisian Empire arised and fell in the Age of Monuments? If that is the case, what kept the Sarnak from spreading out into more than a single city and one fortress that the Sarnak took from the Cabilis Empire? The Cabilis Empire is over 1000 years old?

Lucan D'Lere is over 200 years old and nobody thinks its suspicious that he's walking around. Also the Priests of Truth have been hold up in North Freeport for 200 years without comming to open warfare with Lucan for 200 years? The entire Lucan D'Lere story should be relatively recent news at the beginning of the EQ1 story.

Thexians were created at the end of the Age of Monuments? I can buy the Rallosian Army's invasion of the Plane of Earth being the end of the Age of Monuments, but it doesn't jive with Giants being taken as slaves before the invasion. Post-invasion they wouldn't be an organized force. Pre-invasion your talking about an army of Rallo's creations that were highly dicipined warriors. Not nearly as feirce as the Ogres, but still respectable. Also the Sabilisian Empire would be facing pre-curse Goblins which would be very powerful spell casters. It makes too much sense for the Sabilisian Empire to rise after the Rathe Curse hit the creations of Rallos.

First of all let me say this lore thread is giving me a total nerd-gasm.

But as for what you are asking, I honestly have no idea what you are talking about, can you please provide some lore links for reference?

The Iksar empire lasted beyond the age of monuments. Sebilis from the original Everquest wasn't founded until the "Lost Age"; and you can say that it lasted until the "Age of Cataclysms".

If you are referring to Lucan's current age, he is actually over 500 years old and everyone knows he is a Lich; and there were only evil preists that were willing to tolerate him. Dark Elves, Corrupt Humans, Evil Erudites, Etc. The rest probably fled, were executed, exiled, etc.

The Iksar used to be tough ****; they held their own agaisnt the Dragons on Kunark; the pre-curse Goblins and Giants were nothing compared to that. I have no idea what you are talking about in reference to Giants being taken as slaves though; when did that happen?

Read the second group of timelines that you posted Vex. If Lucan is 500 years old in EQ2, that means those timelines are inaccurate because they place Lucan taking over Freeport 200 years before EQ1 started. They also place the fall of the Sebilisian Empire during the Age of Monuments.
The whole giants as slaves is a refrence to the Ruins of Kunark lore (EQ1, not EQ2 expansion) where it states that Venirill took Giants and Froglocks as slaves to help expand the empire. Which means during his lifetime as he was raised as a lich shortly before Kunark was discovered, long after the Sebilis Empire collapsed. It also implies after the Rathe Curse to me simply because pre-curse the Rallosians were taking over everything as a highly organized army.

Meirril I don't see that conflict in the timeline at all? The timeline separates Lucan taking over Freeport and current EQ2 time by well over 500 years?

http://lorenorrath.free.fr/read_search.php?link=researchmagic&word=itself

I am extremely confused by this tidbit of lore. It says Magic can be broken into 4 major eras.

• The most recent historical period saw the conflict between dark elven necromancy and the magic of the forefathers to those who now live on Erudin.

I honestly have no idea what that is? I dont know of any wars between humans and dark elves.

• Proceeding this conflict was the era of the Combine Empire, whose glory stretched across the length of Antonica. This civilization flourished for a handful of decades before their magical powers became so great that the dragons of the world awoke and grew jealous

That seems okay, I never realized it was the Dragons that destroyed the Combine before, that is good to know
.

• Before the ascent of the Combine Empire was the Age of the Dragons.

Okay, this is where I am confused. It goes straight from Combine to Dragons??? Surely the Combine was not immediately after the Age of Scale, they didn't even exist until way after, there is tons of important magic between that.

• In the beginning, during the age of scale, were those known to me as the Elder Dragons.

Unless I am reading it incorrectly, it is either not listing the fourth era or it is saying there were two different dragon Eras.

dragons had nothing to do with the fall of the Combine. that was Lord Inquisitor Seru and his fanatical extremism which culminated in an assassination attempt on Katta. the dark elf necromancy I can buy as it shows that most humans learned of necromancy from the Teir'dal, who learned/stole it from the Iksar/Shissar. the Heretics were the Erudiotes that embraced necromancy, and that lead to a civil war since the 'loyalist' erudites outlawed it.

I quit playing EQ1 before Luclin came out but I presume you are talking about how the Combine on Luclin fought the Shissar. That was only a small group of Combine. The Combine Empire on Norrathian was much larger then the group on Luclin, and the link I provided specifically says it was the Dragons.

I would still like to know what human/dark eld conflict it is specifically referring to, it states it as an entire Era so it seems like it should be more obvious. Perhaps it was a war during the Lost Age.