EasternKing, the top Guardian on Permafrost is playing his guardian now cause he wasn't having fun on it. Not because it couldn't do a job on a raid, but because other tanks can do the same job now better then a guardian. You saying anything about actual dps classes parsing is a moot point. It's when you have to either tell another tank that they need to slow their roll or waste you snaps on them that it has gotten broken. Because now you are asking someone to not play to their fullest potential. And honestly I don't have a clue who you are and I really don't care.
Githil@Permafrost wrote: Fixed, but yeah people will Troll and try to downplay a lot of things, everyone can easily see who those people are on these boards. I never posted anywheres that I couldn't do my job on my guardian, and to this date have not seen one guardian parse that trumps any of mine. The bottom line is the class sucks, I should not have to use dps as a hate tool, I should not have to waste snaps to keep it off of other tanks, my hate generation should not be reliant on my being hit but in the end my main goal is to avoid damage, etc.... I can keep going, but from the lack of mechanics dev support and playing a class that is absolute garbage outside of raiding (which raiding can be easily done by any crusader now), I am going to play my berserker and actually try to enjoy the game. I will hold my breathe on any fixes, sorry to say the new mechanics dev has not impressed me one bit. We didn't even get one "SINGLE" reply in beta from him on anything and how many months into the xpac are we now?
Sorry Digg, guess I don't want to let go of the whole guardian thing. I agree, I don't remember a single post from Xelgad what so ever in reguards to anything about tank balance. I honestly can't wait until Rift: Planes of Telara comes out. This whole guardian crap is making me become dis-enchanted from this game. And I've played since launch.
EasternKing wrote: But...... To let you know. I am Sevantal. Been on the bazaar since predof. MT raids since shortly after dof release. Am now OT to second guild on our server atm Ascendo Tuum. OT to a SK who also has skill enough to OT for me as OT with an SK takes far more skill than MT. The whole problem we as gaurdians have is that the hybrid/OT by design is no long this. They are the supreme tank. They through end of ROK on have recieved miracles without stopping at the shrine. 3 death saves. Huge self heals. Ability to completely hold a mob off a guardian at any given time. I hear people like you telling me constantly to stop QQing. You keep telling me we as gaurdians cant have it all. Why can the hybrid have it all? Why are we left with nothing? Why are we left at the bottom of the barrel? We at one time were the premier choice in tanks. We are now last choice. Wait. Brawlers are last. Then us. We cant heal, we cant dps, we cant survive in bg, we cant out taunt in pve, we cant death save 3, 2, or even 1 time in pve. We dont get instant sustained agro on the pull that allows insane dps parses. We dont get ranged agro grabs and have to kite parts of encounters over the raid to snap loose mobs. We can OT pretty well if there is only MT OT and the MT knows what he is doing. We can MT pretty well if there are no crusaders in raid or the crusaders know how to dumb there class to nothing. You are so defensive in striking down my valid arguements. Why is that? Just curious.
Rahatmattata wrote: When you read my posts all you read is the negative affects SK's have created across the board with tanks. SOE opened pandora's box when they made crusaders pure tanks. There tools were disigned by default to work as hybrid. You give hybrid tools to a pure tank and you end up with god ability. If you search throughout my posts there are alot of ideas to fix the guardian. Not tons posted by me but tons. My intention here is to bring to light the clear advantages the SK has over the gaurdians and allow others to bring ideas to the table. If I were to give input you would trash me even more than you are trying to right now. My opinion is; and this is my first opinion given, sk/pali shouldn't be able to MT raids. That is by design what warriors were made for. Make the hybrid hybrid once again. Many try telling me this isnt true. that hybrids werent designed as a supplement tank etc. Why then did they have kite shield only abilities? Why then did thier gear carry so little mit predof to kos? They were designed to OT at best and tank decent in heroic content. So I wait for some fix idea that guardians will be happy with accross the board. We will see.
I'm mostly refering to the other day when you bumped a ton of old threads basically saying "guards suck" (or something to that affect) and not much else.
Rahatmattata wrote: Good. So read into each of them. Most have solid valid points. Some do not. If you don't agree that guardians are screwed up atm then stand aside and watch us who think they are look stoopid. I mean if they aren't broken thats all we would be doing here right? Got a chance to run with a pali yesterday. Same story different class. The pali made some terrible pulls that would have killed me in the same group (MT group with our best heals etc.) with much better gear. We were up to 4 trash encounters that added. The pali never left 100%. I with the same healers hit 75% on a constant. I am fully specd surv/agro. Pali was almost impossible to peal from also. I am guessing this was due to skill. Could be and hope I am wrong. This would put pali well ahead of the guardian survivability pitch everyone keeps telling us is our advantage. Yet another disapointment.
Shorcon wrote: I've been saying for some time that Pallies are more survivable in terms of passive defenses. The same mit (effectively) yet more block given the same shield and a 10% permanent damage reduction on their myth buff while we only get a 5% proc. I have yet to understand how that all happened. But, that said, doing your job, skillfully and well on a Guard still yields satisfactory results. Everyone else is better, to the point where some classes can do our job by simply mashing the keyboard with their forehead, but we can still operate ok in, as it where, a vacuum. I know people cry when nerfs are called for, bu when I feel a Guard is survivable enough and has sufficent aggro generation to do the job, but that SKs and Pallies beat me out on both counts, what should I call for? To be buffed to the point of easymode, or call for a reasonable reduction in crusader capabilities?
Shorcon wrote: I have already read those threads and participated in most of them long before you bumped them just to say "still broken."
steelbadger wrote See this is truly the sticky situation SOE has gotten themselves into with 6 tanks. yes all fighters should be able to tank. Is performing at a minimum good enough?
Ahdam@Permafrost wrote: The sticky situation was created when you moved from 2 puretanks to 4. The hybrids had tools in thier arsenal that everyone knew would come to an OP or even current state godlike easy mode pure tank.
Yeah, I don't know how much more of this huge imbalance I can take, it's taking more and more for me to log in. And more and more I'm getting asked to play my mystic or illy cause honestly, why take a guard who can turtle up and take a beating but can't keep agro off of the crusaders who don't have to give up enough survivability to do the damage they do. I've tried to get the attention of the dev's, I've tried giving suggestions in beta and even now. I'm just about to delete my guardian and have fun on the low level SK I made that kills stuff so fast it's rediculous.
There is simply no purpose for a Guardian in EQ2 today. There is nothing a Guardian provides that other fighters do not....and they offer a whole lot more to boot. Players want things fast and easy.........they have grown to expect their tanks to be more than tanks....they also need to be top DPS, able to pull entire rooms with ease and lock aggro with ease so everyone can go pew pew pew without worry. This is 180deg constrast to what Guardian is or ever was so again the class is obsolete in the game today. If all Guards were deleted today......nothing would change......everyone would continue progressing as they have.
Gaylon@Mistmoore wrote: This is the most pertinent comment throughout this entire thread. Devs should take note. You can delete the entire class and not a single thing would change. Sad state of affairs.
Britty wrote: Guards need some luv but to be completely fair this statement is true for any fighter. The nature of the beast is there are very few tank spots in a raid-force and any tank can fullfill those spots...any tank. So that means if you completely removed one type of tank a raid force would continue progression easy because any Warrior, Brawler, Crusader could fill the spot.
Bruener wrote: Yep, absolutely true. There is only ever one BEST of anything. This is the problem every single tank has had to deal with since day 1 of EQ2. For most of that time the best tank was the Guardian and pretty much every other tank was superfluous to a raid (or group, for that matter). Indeed, since fighters mostly couldn't dps for squat they were largely left off the rosters altogether. There were exceptions, but not many. Now, Guardians are no longer the clear BEST and other options are acceptable to raids. There are still balance issues but that is never going to end. Perfect balance is probably not doable and would be highly subjective anyway. No matter how much objective evidence was made available by the devs (which would in itself constitute a major shift in policy) there would be posted parses decrying the superiority of "the other class" or inferiority of "my class" just as there are today. People want to play "the BEST". This is natural and unavoidable ... but not possible in a game with 24 classes, divided into four archetypes which do the same basic job within the archetype. Now throw in individual player skill and achievement on top of basic character abilities and available gear with thousands of variations in stats and capabilities inherent in procs and whatnot and the fact that the dev team can even keep this mish-mash even remotely on the same piece of paper is commendable. In this thread there isn't even a clear consensus among the players about whether Guardians are "adequate for the job" or "they suck". Due to the nature of the tanking position and the preferences of players, even if all tanks can "do the job" any class but "the best" is going to be "worthless". The devs simply cannot win on this one. The best they can do is shift stuff around so that "the best" changes occasionally.
Toranx@Crushbone wrote: You clearly need to learn what trolling is. I read whatever thread I want to on these boards and I will input whatever I want when I want. When somebody makes a blatant statement like the one above I will post my opinion on their opinion. The reason you seem to have a problem with it is because my opinion sounds like truth. Can you honestly refute my statement? Is any fighter specifically needed for progression? Or is the game now at a place where a raid can basically put any fighter in the 2 positions available and not even feel a bump in progression? Funny that you call my input'ing info that is hard to deny into threads trolling and yet all I ever see you do are these dumb one-liners that never serve any purpose at all and are closer to trolling than anybody else does in these forums. Good job.
Bruener wrote: You need one of each fighter subclass on your raid roster, period. Why anyone would choose anything other than Zerker, SK, Monk, would only be to honor someone's previous efforts. So yes, you can state exactly which 3 fighters are undoubtedly superior for your 3 required fighter ranks. The real problem here being, 2 ae classes, and a brawler make up the best solution, and the fact that an ae focused class can generate enough hate to hold aggro on single targets for a geared raid force going all out tells me the class is broken. An AE tank should be struggling to hold single target aggro from a raid force of dps going all out. The fact that isn't the case basically breaks eq2 IMO. But to the point of the other posters. You're not a guard, you aren't up to speed on guard issues at really any level of game play, and your opinions on guards are neither appreciated or valued by any guard that reads this forum. I'll kindly stay out of the SK forums with my opinions on SKs (even though I have a 90 sk that alt raids, you have a 90 guard alt that raids?), I think we'd all appreciate it if you'd kindly stay out of this class forum. You are of course entitled to do what you will, but I don't think mutual respect is too much to ask for. Thanks, Atan
