[p]Quick question. As a mob hits a player, here is how i have interpreted the event:[/p][p] [/p][p]1. Avoidance [/p][p]2. Mitigation[/p][p]3. Ward's absorb damage[/p][p]4. Reative heals target[/p][p] [/p][p]Is this correct? In my opinion it would be much better for all healer class to group together if it was opposite this as follows:[/p][p]1. Avoidance [/p][p]2. Mitigation[/p][p]3. Reative heals target[/p][p]4. Ward's absorb excess damage[/p][p]I normally play a mystic, and love having a Fury/warden play backup healer because they heal after my wards. Currently, I will noty grop with a templar because their heals are worthless because my wards are healing all the damage. In my recommendation, at least the heals of the templar will be fully utilized in addition to the ward being utilized.[/p][p] [/p][p]What is everyone elses experience with this?[/p][p] [/p][p]Zubad[/p][p] [/p]
[p]That looks right.[/p][p]I am fine with reactives coming after wards but one thing that totally boggles me is why wards (that are always used up first) get to have a heal component after the ward expires. [/p][p]You would think that reactives would have that heal component because I watch my reactives expire so many times without firing at all.[/p]
[p]Its always a little rough (or way too easy depending on how you look at it) when you group with a shammy as a templar. Unless you're in a heavy hitting situation, it pretty much negates the need for the templar to be casting their directs or reactives. I find myself focusing on the debuff, sign of, mark, and involuntary lines, plus theres the glory of combat... the 3 lotto procs seem like they dont fire often enough, or dont heal for large enough numbers, but check parses, and they can add up massively in the right scenario, with huge efficiency I might add. That power efficiency becomes evident all those times in a long fight when the shammy has drained his power keeping the wards up, and youve been putting minimal power into maintaing the proc spells... I dont bother keeping my reactives up unless its obvious that its needed in conjunction with the wards. Youve also got the sign line, debuffs, and stun that reduce incoming damange, and increase damage taken on the mob, all lending to overall efficiency. Everyones different, but most groups that I'm, including when Im the tank (as my zerker, not templar) would take a shammy/cleric combo over a shammy/druid. *shrug.[/p][p]Its difficult to argue definitively on things like this due to the many variables, player skill, gear, levels, type of mob, type of objective, group makeup, and difficulty in measuring things like the reduction in damage from say stifles and stuns, and the increased damage from debuffs. [/p][p] [/p]
[p]Actually I feel its good that the ward is checked before the reactives. This lets the reactives heal and not just prevent damage. [/p][p]Example If the tank not of full health, ward is up and single and group reactives are to. Now the ward will if lucky hold and prevent any damage to the tank. At the same time both reactives fire and heal the tank for about 1000+ so the tank actually comes out better after the blow than before. If how ever the reactives first are triggered not many damage if any at all will come to the ward. So the tank is not better nor worse out than before the blow. So I am happy the way it works now. If things are easy and the shaman likes to take care of heals I do dps If shaman likes to debuff I can take care of heal. If things are really rough the ward and the reactives works just fine together. /Hugs Tash[/p]
[p]Here's my opinion on a way to make Templars and Shamans to work together.[/p][p]avoidance -> mit -> ward well... wards -> reactive fire and heals the WARD.[/p][p]That way, even when the ward doesn't allow for our reactive to directly heal the tank, we can still be keeping the tank alive by keeping the ward for up as long as possible. It could work the same way for HoT's... each tick heals the ward if it doesn't heal the tank.[/p]
[p]Yeah right. [/p][p]Lets make the shaman look even better and make templars look like they are not even needed. Great idea! :shock: [/p]
My main character is a Defiler. When I group with a Templar I focus on debuffing and only ward and heal as needed (e.g. named fights). By the time I've cast my full line of debuffs and damage spells (all of which have a debuff component), the enemy is usually at least 50% dead. I agree that having both of us focus on warding/healing is overkill, and we could use our classes far more effectively. I usually send a tell to the Templar and tell him how I plan on playing and ask his advice; if he prefers that I ward/heal and he support, then I'll certainly do that as well). One thing I do love about the combination is our health buffs - the two highest in the game. I was recently in an Estate of Unrest group with a guardian that we buffed to 12.7K health
I group with a Defiler alot on my Templar and I have to say that the the way that wards and reactives work 'together' sucks. The inital post is correct that the ward is hit before the reactive is trigered, the problem is that unless the tank takes at least some damage the reactive will not trigger. However, the Templar stoneskin is taken into account before the ward, so the actuall order is: 1. Avoidance 2. Mitigation 3. Stoneskin (if active) 4. Ward 5. Reactive (if the tank takes dmg) On a high Mit tank the reactives usually won't go off unless your dealing with hard hitting mobs or epics. However, I have found that the Defiler/Templar combo can be a great way to go if you have a scout tank. With the Defiler and myself we can keep a Swashy alive in most fights that we try. A lot of how a Cleric/Shaman combo will work depends on the players and if they can corodinate how they will heal. When the Defiler and I started grouping we had alot more deaths then we do now, so working together often always helps.
[p]I love the recommendation of having our reactives heal the ward. Imagine the healing potential of a templar/mystic combo in this case. With both classes casting thier group heal at the beginning of the fight, both could then take the time to cast thier debuffs as well.[/p][p] [/p][p]This is something I hope the Devs will consider as it will not only improve the groupability of the two classes, but increase the value tremendously of templars as a whole.[/p][p] [/p][p]From my PvP perspective, this would make templars an invaluable asset for raiding and group pvp.[/p][p] [/p][p]Great recommendation.[/p]
[p]Seem to be a bit of a confusing here about how the reactives works with wards.[/p][p]Out reactives actually triggers when target being hit weather or not the ward absorb all damage. This means if tank is not at 100% health and the ward absorb all damage our reacties will heal the tank. This is very powerful combo against hard mobs where two healers are needed. See http://forums.station.sony.com/eq2/posts/list.m?start=30&topic_id=178042 for further info in this subject. /Hugs Tash[/p][p] [/p]
[p]That is great for hard mobs but our heals only add value in that situation now. The perfect solution would be to have both class heals be effective when working in conjunction against all mobs and not just the really difficult one that are able to get through the wards in the first place.[/p][p]Just my opinion, but I don't see a downside with the recommendation.[/p]
[p]Well if one healer can keep the group alive and kicking all extra heal will be wasted right? So either the clerics heals will be wasted if the wards are enough to keep the tank constantly at 100% Or half of both the healers time will be wasted if the reactives keep the ward up. So what the difference? Except that clerics can say that they healed to? The healing power of that group will be overpowered in either case. If on the other hand the reactives keep healing the tank while the ward protects the tank this will be very useful when the wards cant keep up with the incoming.8)[/p][p] [/p][p]So if you in a group where some one else takes care of the healing. Do something else like hurt things until your healing powers are needed.[/p][p] [/p][p]/Hugs Tash[/p]
Sorry to drag up an old thread but i was wondering if this is the case? I'm guessing it is as i group with a mystic alot and while i out kitted him i Out heal parsed him, but now his gear has caught up he's totally owning the parse and making me look like im sleeping my way though the instances.
The case where reactive triggers and heals for nothing is far too common in raids. I don't particularly mind that the heal parse only records what the defiler is doing, because that's merely an artifact of the parser or heal order, although I would like some recognition of my efforts, or some way to know if I am effective other than the loot at the end. However, I do mind when reactives actually do nothing.
Enrico@Permafrost wrote: This. And giving everyone a Ward (we have Repent and War Runes for example) is a lazy way around it. The trouble is and has always been people looking at the heal parse to determine how 'good' a healer is. A DPS parse is infinite. Your numbers on DPS actually show the DPS you can do at any given time. Numbers on a heal parse show the CHANCE you had to heal, not how much you actually can heal FOR. When I'm on my Defiler, I can top the parse easily. I raid with Templar and Warden too - same person behind the toon, relatively same gear...and the parse may or may not reflect great numbers. We all know the tricks we can do to inflate our heal parse, but that still isn't 'real' healing..it's cheap. IMO Everyone wants to feel like what they are doing makes a difference and that they are 'needed' and doing something within the raid. I just wish devs would realize that. Because the game mechanics are they way they are - it'd be cool if they could come up with a way for each class to shine.
Arielle Nightshade wrote: Bah shamans have always been bit bent since the devs gave templars repent...kinda like the shaman on AB who shall remain nameless who made it her job to get sacrifice nerfed not because it was broken but because it worked well enough to threaten her heal parse it was comical...people will always look at their heal parse and get bent if person x healed more than them its human nature but I agree the heal parse is not always a good indicator of how well a person can heal.
Fix: Change wards so they do nto ward 100% of damage. Might also be worthwhile to limit abilitiy of warding classes to heal. I am not familiar enough with mystics to say if they pure healing capability is appropriate.
Socravunis@Kithicor wrote: Interesting proposal however based upon the lazy dev approach of ever increasing dps requirement for raid scripts and hyper dot cures, etc., I feel this would a hinderance than a solution
Best way to fix reactives, IMO, is to 1) not have them trigger when there is no damage to heal. If a tank is hit, and all damage is avoided or warded, and tank is already at 100% health, then the reactive should not trigger and be wasted. Then 2) make reactives have a chance to trigger EVERY time a target takes damage, ie on damage from a multiattack or aoe hit, not just from a primary hit. Notice that wards already receive both of these benefits. Why are reactives treated differently? There, done, reactives are fixed.
