Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Dabb, Jul 28, 2016.
Tanks need hate attention, period...
I love this idea!
Trying to hold aggro is not a fun mechanic at all.
No No, we dont want the easy solution for this... just uncapping Hate Gain is going to let them push tank DPS even lower. Back when the Cap was 50% tanks where able to do way more % DPS of the T1 DPS since we had to have that DPS to hold agro... fast fowered to today I am good to do 1/6th of the DPS of the top DPSers. If they push the cap to 500% when we will be good to get to 1/20th of the DPS of the Bards and Chanters since we dont need the dps to create hate...
Tanking is a balance between Surviving the content and DPS+Threat to control agro. the raw Threat side is a very boring part of it.
Some tanks can hold aggro really well. Others need help. If you happen to group with one of the tanks that can't hold aggro as well as you can DPS, perhaps the person that needs help is you. Part of grouping is understanding the limits of the rest of your group and adjusting accordingly.
As a tank, I announce at the beginning of groups that my aggro gets iffy when you cross 150m dps. Last week that number was 100m. As a monk, I also let the group know that I am a monk and cannot hold large groups very well. If someone is consistently taking the mob from me, I send them a tell asking them to turn it down a bit rather than group shaming them. I know my monk doesn't have the best gear and probably not the best AA setup. If the group understands each other's limits and plays to that, everything goes smoothly.
To any non-tanks reading this, please go get 3 of these if you haven't already. http://u.eq2wire.com/item/index/4176136647
My main is a serker, before that a sk at launch for many years. I'm no expert at tanking, but I am a lot better at that than dps classes. I've been playing my serk 95% of the time since ToT. I never really had soo much hate issues until the potency explosion. After adjusting my gear and stats I've had a lot easier time. Currently sitting at 24k mit and 5,300 potency, and I've been tanking DW without a shield in MC and SK.
Does that mean I don't think there needs to be something done to hate? Absolutely not. I think the idea of raising the hate mod cap makes a lot of sense. I believe there needs to be options. What I mean by that is if people want to focus on their dps to hold hate let them. If people prefer to turtle up and taunt that should work too. There just needs to be a trade. If you want dps to be your agro management you should be more squishy. If you want to turtle up for easier survivability you should do a lot less dps. Me personally...I would be fine with doing 1,000 dps if it meant I had agro and survivability. But that's just me.
Don't get me wrong, it is fun going through things right now and tearing it up. But we have mostly outgrown this expansion. In a few months there will be a new expansion as usual which will bring new concerns to the table. We need to keep threads like this going with good ideas and feedback so hopefully they make adjustments in this next expansion.
so what some of you are saying is if you are a TANK then take your TANK gear off and put dps class gear ON so u can be a DPS class instead lol just stop...fix the hate gain ability
raising hate gain cap is a temporary solution at best because down the line there will be even mroe inflation on dps classes while tank gear in neglected, a tank in full defensive gear with hate adorns should be able to hold agro, a better solution is add a groupwide hate siphon (which will scale well as these are % based) or to raise the damage of tank CAs.
tanks don't need to do as much damage as DPS classes, but they are called fighters for a reason. i think we would see more tanks if they weren't just a damage and hate sponge.
dps pull agro just by dpsing, why can't tanks get hate by hategain adorns, taunts and dps?
tank's don't need to infringe on DPS classes damage, they need to scale tank's damage relative to DPS classes so damage+hategain+a taunt is enough to take and hold agro for all tanks and then use a taunt when needed because a script or a dps got a lucky break on a combo.
i'll give you an example let's say there's a game where tanks (at their best) do 25% of the DPS of a single dps class, with their hate mods and taunts.
so the numbers are 25:100 now imagine there is an update that inflates stats, tanks get buffed too by gear, but due to needing defensive spec items which have lower of that important stat, DPS can stack more for higher DPS the balance then shifts from 25:100 downward against the tank e.g 12.5:100, in this case you buff the tank's CAs and taunts, they do more damage but they resume being 25% of a dps' classes dps.
Turn Draconic Shout into a % group hate transfer (It even has the icon that begs for this change *hint* Guardians). Done. That heal is pretty much worthless considering the temps, stoneskins, or life taps the tanks have. I think people are just running random setups so where you have a healer or 2 and 4-5 dps with no transfers is where the problem rears its ugly head. When in raid with proper setups the aggro problem practically vanishes. I think that will be the only way to put something there that has a consistent value no matter how much the dps goes up plus you won't have to rely on having specific classes. DPS isn't lost if the tank has good enough healers to keep them up and can still go turtle if they have weaker healers.
the biggest thing they need to change is more items with tank stats and high pot at the moment its a big trade off. some etherals with some +mit/block aswell as the other stats would be nice. althou saying that both the tanks i play a zerker and guard have 23k mit and not bad aviodance (can not remember exact figure at the moment) and over 7k pot which more than enought for all herioc zones. for me personally i find stuff alot easyier on guard on the zerker if i dont have a coers and bard i struggle to hold aggro especially on single targets simple fix for that thou would be to give the zerker a hate transfer as they havent got one
By doing that you only give dps/healers even less reason to need a tank. If they obtain the mit and block of a tank whats the purpose for the tank again?
Its a matter of Tanks that are over gearing for current content.
Using my monk as an example for Mit http://u.eq2wire.com/soe/character_detail/450973769655
Currently self buffed his Mit is 20k (still too high)
add 1900-2000 for a healer in group
now im at 22k
Add 4140 for Mountain Stance Temp +1294 for Body Like Mountain Temp
Now I am temped up to 27-28k mit
Using our handy dandy Mit chart ... We can see that I am now at about 72-74 % reduction or close to cap VS most Heroic Zone Mobs(105-106). So why would I need more Mit Gear? Even if I don't have temps up I am still at about a 70% reduction.
What I need is more POT to make my Taunts/CA's hit harder. And more HP to make it easier on Nonchain healers when my temps are down.
Also keep an extra piece of gear that you reforge for hate mod in case you don't have a bard.
no, just make a new ability. draconic shout is far from useless it's not just a heal it increases the max health of the tank which means you can pair it with divine aura for more damage negation on crusaders.
I think there are a lot of good ides floating around.
Add a group wide threat transfer. I like this but worry they won't even attempt it.
Match potency on tank items vs dps items. This is very doable. I would guess this is what we will see in the next expansion.
And I'm going to add a couple new ones...
Remove slot restrictions on adorns. Obviously war runes would stay on primary/secondary etc. But allow all white and regular purple runes to be used on any item type. This lets you have more customization how YOU want it.
Put in armor sets again that mean something. This is something that is very under used with a ton of possibilities. Have an armor set from solo, heroic, and each tier of raid. Then jewelry and the adorn change I mentioned above let you tweak things further.
Group wide hate transfer? Seriously stop being ridiculous. Comments like that are what will get threads like this ignored.
What next, DPS classes asking for a 1 button super dps spell. Dirges a 1 button raid rez?
Tanks that gear effectively for their situation are fine. Tanks who don't suffer. Same goes for any class with any role.
I think what people are saying is gear for success based on game mechanics not what you think your gear should be based on your idea of what a tank is. The game is constantly evolving when it comes to what stats are important, right now potency is king. Tanks don't have to be indestructible, stacking mit well beyond what is needed to survive a zone seems to have become a point of pride with some people. What is this thread 4 or 5 in the last couple of month about how hard it is to hold aggro? What next a scout complaining about how bad their DPS is because they refuse to stack pot and mod over melee stats?
The "problem" imo is the hidden values tied to each item, the stat count so to say. tank gear replaces stats like like atk speed, dps, Multiatk etc for mitigation, block etc, and while at least for some classes ( brawlers?) those mitigation items are pretty much a requirement, it leaves tanks with below average ammounts of offensive stats. It just cripples the passive aggro gain because particularly the potency levels fall far behind those of other archtypes.
Or in other words. a dps class can have the cake and eat it. just pick the most offensive gear possible and go to town. No need to pick items you don't really want (jewelry with confidence effect for example as tank), but you just NEED in order to do your job.
I wouldn't mind seeing fighter only items that ignore hidden stat values and offer some bonus stats.
The ethereal items sure are nice, but why can't there be mitigation and/or block on them ? if it breaks non-tanks because of it, just make it an effect that only applies if class = fighter ? dunno...just feels like after 12 years of playing EQ2 it still feels like gearing my tanks is so much less fun then gearing my dps classes.
The real problem here is...
EVERYONE is out for max damage and crit %...
It's pretty freakin' sad that a 100 wizard with free-hand sorcery drops a nuke and I see 109M+ damage on everything...EVERYTHING!
Glibe and a few other hate gaining mechanics do NOT really spread out that much aggression even with Aggro AA tree maxed out to the bone marrow.
It's NOT enough!
There's only soo much one can really take here...and being a zerker face-rolling AoE machine (I generate soo much freaking hate that it's unreal...but with all the new dps and crit % that other main classes are getting...) there's literally only soo much I can do.
All Fighter classes need to be able to gain scaled aggression with every...single...skill! We're not talking a minuscule amount either.
We're talking by that each form of "mock and shouts + aoe's" should INSTANTLY bring us up 1 level per use...maximum of 100 levels. Single Target skills should bring up the numbers as usual...
If scaling these properly will cause a lot of "camping" named mobs...well, time to get out that ban hammer and ban the offending party members for 72, 144, 288, or 596 hours for their sheer stupidity.
Maybe tanks should learn how this game works. Meta shifts. NOBODY is forcing you to stack 30k mit solo. Mit inc armor + 1 or 2 * bracelet of yothshaval and you already have plenty of mit. Seriously I am becoming really tired of tanks whining about nothing. As a high end shadowknight I can hold everyone with the right group setup, and I can't hold one person on my entire server without it. On top of that, I am a hell of a lot tougher than 99% of the tanks on my server because of my high hp which I got BECAUSE of high potency. I said this many times: pot/hp > mit but people are so insanely ignorant.
So okay, don't adapt to the new tanking meta and keep on leaving very salty tears here in the forums. It is becoming amusing.
For me the problem is two fold:
1.) too many stats to keep track of. Mit/Crit/Crit Bonus/Potency/Ability Mod/Block/Uncontested Block/Hate/Reuse/casting Speed/Recovery Speed/Spell Reuse/Spell Doublecast/MA/Flurry/Haste/DPS/Strikethrough/Resolve/Fervor/AccuracyMeleeAOE. Alot of stats to keep track of.
2.) Tank/Healers get alot of **** if they mess up or do not know how to do their rotation (there are alot of abilities) The only tanks I do not have at 100 are Zerker and Monk and I am still not 100% sure how to play them hence I am terrified to join a group and TRY and tank. I am glad so many people find it really easy to balance their stats/gear and abilities but some of us have a hard time and it makes it harder to learn to play when DPS are doing crazy numbers. Back to the abilities, My mate tried a heroic Character, looked at his action bard full of abilities and said "f**k this I'm going back to WOW". I have put forward some complaints towards tanking and I will also put forward some solutions I think would help the situation for new/inexperienced tanks get a handle on things.
1.) More upto date information and guides on how the classes work and stats they should prioratize.
2.) condense some of the stats and remove stats that are not important for certain classes (e.g Guards do not need Spell stats)
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