Tanking and what class to play?!

Discussion in 'Fighters' started by Havenbrook, Jan 2, 2014.

  1. Andy1 Active Member

    I would definitely like to hear a dev response on the issue specifically with hate mod...the golden rule has always been anything over +50 is too much, since you would get the rest from coercer/dirge if needed. I have been hearing that people are going well above this and still having agro issues.

    I know this may seem obvious but are you letting your auto-attacks hit or just spamming CA's? Also what content are you doing, the suggestion that strikethrough is worthless is bad advice, especially in raid content.

    I've never had an issue holding agro unless I've forgot to turn back off sing focus for whatever reason I had it on originally for. Some tanks are swearing that you should go over 100+ hate mod, but to me that is wasting points that can go anywhere else. I don't want to outright say it's stupid to do that, but I would appreciate a dev response, much like the one they gave for MA/DPS/Reuse/Casting S/Haste...can't remember what thread they put it in, but it was fairly recent.

    My only guess would be the clickies that up your threat position on classes that are not tanks is why you're losing agro. I've noticed initially while people(PUG's) are gearing up they're grabbing any and everything that has better green stats than what they're wearing, instead of paying attention to the blues.
  2. Genghes Active Member

    No need to be over 100 hate mod buffed. The problem is that tanks do less dps than we used to and dps classes are pumping out way more dps than they used to. Dps + hate mod or a really good transfer is the only way to efficiently hold hate now
  3. Estred Well-Known Member

    I can answer that as during beta I did as a Dev for confirmation on Hate Caps and they are still
    -50% for a minimum
    +100% for a maximum

    If your dirge does not run hate song then you need 70% Self-Buffed
    I run about +50% Myself.
  4. Andy1 Active Member

    That's what I thought Estred.

    As a pally(betrayed SK), guardian and monk I've never gone over +50 self buffed and haven't had a threat issue regardless of the group make-up. Pally with amends(of course no threat issue ;p), SK with grave sacrament w/death march refresh, Guard with Shoulder the Burden/moderate, Monk with dragon breath on top of dps.

    It's only a few tanks I've talked to that are under the impression that going over 100 hate mod is doing something for them, but to me I just don't see it. That's with multiple people in my group over the 4+mil dps mark and I'm nowhere close to that.

    Edited because I forgot about the guard.
  5. Darkon Well-Known Member

    Brawlers aren't unkillable gods who can faceroll any longer. They're still powerful though. Zerkers are new unkillable faceroll gods.
  6. Regolas Well-Known Member

    About time! Love my zerker but he was the number 6 choice as a tank for the past few years by most people (zerker in general not me specifically!)
  7. Corydonn Active Member

    As opposed to SKs who have always been that way since Day 1 TSO! <3
    Xillean, Fetish and Malleria like this.
  8. Everdog Member

    What I feel about brawlers these days.

    Brawlers have no significant Hate siphoning / no powerful threat generating abilities / no reactives to generate threat.
    The fact that ToV Tank Gears wouldn't help you to hold aggros really slapped Brawlers.
    I myself dont think that Brawlers have survivability issues because You can now take both Stonecold and Tag team at the same time.
    But if any tank class these days can be survivable more than enough then what is the point of brawlers?
    It seems to me that Brawlers are tanks who have very serious difficulties to hold aggros(Especially AoE Aggros) and are very dependent on DRG/CRC/TRB/SWB.
    That is sad.
  9. The_Cheeseman Well-Known Member

    I have had exactly zero issues holding aggro on my monk. Just get your hate mod up to 70+, get a few nice procs, and spec appropriately, and you're fine. Make sure you have Hostility and the Dragon AA that adds damage to your taunts. Draconic Effigy and Wonder-Waggler Ring are great, too.
    Estred likes this.
  10. Darkon Well-Known Member

    Woah bud. We were terribad during dov/skyshrine/aod/coe and I'm probably missing a couple in there.
  11. Wulwyrlyn Active Member

    All the tanks do a good job really (bruisers might be the last spot I don't know). Brawlers will require more gear than a plate tank but once you have it, properly played, you will be fine. Berserkers are very strong now because most of the instances have swarms of light hitting mobs that make our self heals great, and we have lots of AOEs (yay, cool to be a top choice instead of last for once!). SKs are very very strong as well for similar reasons (and are probably going to be easier to get single target dps out of than a berserker). I don't know much about paladins, but from what I've heard they are good as well. Guardians are awesome now, due to some stoneskin changes and the ability to get multiple heroic endlines at the same time, as well as some other changes. Monk is good as well but keep in mind you will most likely want to spec left hand side prestige when you are doing hard things (and as you are just starting out and have little gear) to get bob and weave, because it's not where it was before. But despite popular "oh the sky is falling" posts and such, yes, you can easily do all the heroics as a monk tank, including the final one.

    TLDR: pick whatever you have the most fun playing.
  12. Estred Well-Known Member

    Wul hit it pretty good.

    Zerks are great because there are a lot of instances of "light hitting" bosses which is what Zerks are built for.
    SK's by that same nature are strong because of AE-Lifetaps and Reaver.

    Paladin's have ever since the DoV conversion of Flat Heals to Percent Heals, been good self-reliant tanks. This holds true in ToV.
    Monks when geared are also very self-reliant especially when they spec Defensively.

    Guardian's haven't changed much. They still are extremely reliant on their healers and their Temps are short lived at best when compared to other Tanks.
    Bruisers by the same token don't have as powerful temps as Monks and as such are harder to keep alive.

    Yes, I spaced out the tanks like that for an exact reason.
    Kalika likes this.
  13. Kalika Well-Known Member

    Yeah zerk shine on easy encounters, but let's say on the final named of both TOV instance they are way harder to heal than my paladin (group hps is almost twice higher. Even if they are quite OP against trivial content they are my least favorite tank, by far. Probably simply because many of them are badly played.
  14. Silzin Active Member

    i know that monks can get the job done when we are geared, but it is still harder to survive on a monk passively then plate tanks. this to me indicates that monks need to have some abilities that where nurfed looked at and adjusted. the rule of thumb i have tried to use for ALL classes is... "if you need gear over the level that drops for the zone to do your job in that zone (that other classes can do your job) then your class needs looked at." this should go for mainly tanks and healers since a different measuring bare should be used for the dps classes.

    I guess this would mean that you would need to make sure you are comparing the right classes performance wise. like Guards should not be compared to SKs for tanking.... but i would say that if Bruisers are compared to SKs and Zerkers (the other OTs) then the Bruiser falls fare short.

    I will save the list of monk changes for a different thread.
  15. Shanoi Member

    Silzin- what you seem to be forgetting is that the leather tanks are designed to be more squishy than plate tanks, and this is "balanced" by their increased DPS potential over plate tanks. The balance is served as so:
    • Mob A takes a plate tank 2 minutes to kill while the mob is hitting 20 times per minute for a total of 40 hits. Each hit hurts a plate tank less due to higher mitigation.
    • Mob A takes a leather tank 1min 15 sec to kill while the mob is still hitting 20 times per minute for a total of 25 hits. Each hit hurts a leather tank more due to lower mitigation.
    Now, the major difference in these fights is the number and power of the hits the mob does. Plate tanks take more hits because they kill slower, meaning they take more damage. Leather tanks take fewer hits but each one hurts more meaning they are fairly well balanced for your average mob.

    That having been said, leather tank survivability for group encounters, particularly named mobs, can be problematic if you are not on your A-game. However, properly geared and played leather tanks generally do just as well as a plate tank in the end. What we do not see anymore is easy-mode tanking. As a plate tank I am quite happy with the changes introduced in ToV as I feel relevant again.
  16. Silzin Active Member

    I do understand what you are talking about and i think you may be right for Solo play, but not group and raid. in group and raid brawlers "Should" take hits harder for less often so there for the brawler would take equal or less damage over the same length fight, but hits that are bigger. in content that does not threaten to one shot brawlers randomly.

    I know that monks can get the job don after we are geared, but we still have things that are not working well and other things that are 100% useless. I also think that the Passive Surviveability on both brawlers needs to be improved, not our temps, just the passive Surviveability ... and it does not need a lot just some.

    edit to add: Also brawlers do not have MORE dps then plate tanks when we have to go Left Side Prestige and survive.
  17. Rasttan Member

    Great theory except that Zerkers and Sks dps more than leathers and can wear much less tank gear to tank the same content.
    Brawlers can out dps a Pally but they are way ahead of either Brawler in survivability. 3 tanks need a little help Bruisers, Monks, Guards the other 3 have it easy this expansion with Zerkers having a free ride do to there Over Powered heals
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  18. Genghes Active Member

    Unbuffed currently I'm at 10.3k. On raids in combat I can get up to 19-20k mit
  19. Algid Member

    The only problem I see is that my Guardian can have as much at 17-19k mit solo and 21-26k in raids with 15-38% damage reduce while still doing 1-2mil dps on every fight. vs a brawler doing the same or less dps while having half the mit and less group survivability and aggro management. Right now we just started pulling derig, and on one fight I had 98% avoidance for 3minutes....how is that even fair.
    Malleria likes this.
  20. Silzin Active Member

    Thank you for bring out the point i have been trying to get to. I have seen Guards and Pallys in amazing defensive and offensive position with all of the changes made... and it is a lot harder for ether brawler to compete. I think Bruisers need a different "Fix" then monks, since i think bruisers should be the AoE Brawlers... but thats for its own thread.
    Malleria likes this.

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