Giving up health buffs is a huge sacrifice I have to make as a Tank. I think Guardians have 6-7k more Health then my Berserker does. Why do no other tanks have to give up tons of Health/Mitigation to DPS, a brawler can outparse me in defensive stance, and he has 4-5k more HP and almost the same if not more mitigation. What does he give up? This game is far from balanced, its always been that way and its too late to change it now.
Bruener wrote: no, it wouldn't kill the game... it would kill most of what you have to "complain" about, most of which is unfounded. take a look just above, another complete page of bickering and no one agreeing because everyone has their own visions of tank balance. mainly that there class be overpowered. you and talathion being the most extreme balloonists, inflating everything X10.
Gungo@Crushbone wrote: Or when your guild's MT is already one of the classes that guy only wants to instance tank.
Boli@Splitpaw wrote: You sound like an angry guardian, mad that his top spot was taken by a crusader. Probably a SK.
Nadirah@Crushbone wrote: If you think Crusaders, SK's especially are the tank of choice for raiding guilds you are very much mistaken. Ohh and Boli is a Paladin.. get some sort of clue before you type please... Guardians and Brawlers are the only classes that can successfully tank the harder content, a large portion of this is to do with strike through and the fact the 3 other tanks have no way to block the large AOE's on a consistent basis. I've said a lot of times what the fighters need to improve/balance them and get them into a much closer state. We'll never achieve perfect balance, getting it close is all we can really hope for. The only "Nerf" I've asked for is the removal of strike through from Brawlers, but I think all tanks agree this is a stupid mechanic and no tank should have immunity to it. Class consolidation needed to happen in Beta, at the latest LU13, while it would be beneficial I don't think SOE have the resources to be able to acheive it. Just warriors would require a reworking of all their AA's and the addition of new ones to replicate Class specific abilities.
Boli@Splitpaw wrote: This whole defensive/offensive tank concept is garbage. At least since RoK Guardians have better single target (aka 100 % of the mobs) DPS than Berserkers. In TSO SK was one of or the best tank for solo, group, raid, pvp, DPS, support. In SF the same. And in Velious Bruiser is one of or the best tank for solo, group, raid, pvp, DPS and has by a long shot the most powerful melee group buff. And still the devs and players like you play three wise monkeys and say, that because Berserkers are good in heroic content they shouldn't be good in raid content, while other tanks can dominate every field of play. Even if a Berserker had the same stoneskin abilities like a Guard, Berserkers still have worse single target DPS/hate gain and their group buffs are useless trash. And you argue, that noone would take the Guardian, that provides better group buffs (HP, 50 % stoneskin proc, DI) and hate gain, because the "offensive" tank could tank the mob as well?
Bremer wrote: From the little bit I have seen of Berserkers in DoV you all do need something. Aside from that get off your pouty trip. Berserkers at WORST have the same DPS on single target as Guardians have and always have the potentional for massive DPS the more mobs you add in. If your speced wrong then that is your fault and not anybody elses. Boli's point it valid. If an Offensive tank is plenty good then what do the defensive tanks do? The problem is that we have six raid capable tanks that are trying to do that tanking in six different ways and there is just flat NO way to balance that at all. Back in level 50-60 you had 4-5-6 fighters in a raid and they were welcome. Becasue, several of those classes weren't really raid capable tanks but they did nifty stuff for the raid anyway. That's what we need but who is gonna be the MT and who is gonna be the instance tank and raid utility? If you think I'm wrong about no way to balance this then ask yourself why SoE gave up trying to balance and just made groups of fighters more powerful/less powerful each expansion.
Wasuna wrote: There is not a time I can remember at all of regular raids using more than 4 fighters...and I have been raiding since T5. The closest I have ever seen it is in SF where the guild I was in that was up in progression used 4 Fighters regularly because it wasn't a huge loss to raid DPS and 4 Fighters offered awesome CC capabilities. So, in short 4 Fighters were optimum in SF because the gains were worth it while the negatives weren't so extreme. Going to 5 though would just have been silly because you would start losing utility or T1 DPS which means too much raid DPS loss and no gain from it. As far as DoV it is garbage for tank balance and even worse than RoK. You have 3 tanks completely domintating the field with no loss. Brawlers for one do the MOST DPS, even in Defensive, and are the most Defensive with how mechanics work and pretty much always have some way to block large AEs that one shot, not to mention taking close to the same physical damage but having much superior avoidance. My healers love it when I tank because they actually have to think and plan and rotate their own abilities compared to when a Brawler tanks and just does it all for them. Guards are in the same boat, only with less DPS. However, arguably better agro control with lots of taunt type hate and hate buffs. These 3 tanks not only make the best MTs, but they also make the best OTs for the same exact reason while also having plenty of AE control to tank off a raid, more than "offensive" Fighters even when you start throwing mem-wipes into the mix. IMO what needs to be done as I stated before Brawlers brought back into line. I also do not think that ST type tanks should have access to AE type target locks. All Fighters need multiple hate position jumping abilities, not just the 3 Fighters since mem-wipe is obviously a mechanic that is not going away and is a more important tool for OTs (was brought up when they changed Grave Sac and Holy Ground...those 2 should probably tic hate positions.). Fighter heals should crit again, leaving % based heals unable to crit. Bring overall DPS back into a much healthier variance instead of what we see today with T1 DPS doing 2x the DPS as everybody else (already have bards back to where they should be, now its time to address the huge gap in T1 since that causes huge issues). Basically fixing the DPS issues will take a huge removal of having such a big DPS focus on everything and address Fighter hate self-generation issues. Doing those things and I am not sold that Crusaders and Zerks need more to block AEs...the advantage of much better agro from these tanks will make them a good option specifically for OT. Fixing Brawlers will than introduce much more use of Defensive healers to be in raid to do the job that currently just those few Fighters are doing. As an example, last night I tanked one of the mobs on the first encounter in Sullons HM with a warden and Inq healing me. They loved being able to actually be very reliable on their saves and working together with me to keep me alive while I would be able to fill in an ability once in a great while when they were short something. That is the way it is supposed to be instead of hey 4-5 minutes in Brawler calls for a save by a healer and than is good for the rest of the encounter.
Bruener wrote: Another thing i'd like to add Bruener is a passive reduction to Flurry/Multi-Attack Damage to Plate Tanks. Something thats like Strikethrough Immunity: Punishment Immunity Punishment Immunity reduces the damage of Flurrys and Multi-Attacks recieved to caster by 25% to 50% [Random](Before Mitigation.) (Punishment Immunity would be tied to the fighter's defensive stance.) Warrior Defensive Stance needs +200 Stamina added to it like Crusaders, and the Berserker Defensive Stance needs a Proc Added to it like their offensive stance, possibly one that does damage and threat, so it rivals his offensive stance more. Punishment Immunity wouldn't really effect the content under level 85 at all, and give almost no advantage to people leveling. (ect.)
Bruener wrote: Sorry. No way to balance Six (6) raid tanks. Therefore brawlers get to maintain their superiority as raid tanks for at least another year (based on TSO and SF tank balance/domiance duration) and Crusaders and Berserkers get to be at the bottom. It's the fixed rotation that six (6) raid capable tanks has forced on us. Once Brawlers are done then it's the Guardian time for two years. I expect that Crusaders will be on top again sometime in 2014 in a currently unannounced expansion. You can try and argue thet Crusaders weren't the 'bees knees' in TSO and SF but you'll just get laughed at more.
Wasuna wrote: Well considering you can find posts from Brawlers here in these threads about how they had the same power in SF as they do now, and with the changes to Guards in SF they were given basically what they have now, obviously it was perception instead of people actually knowing. And than as usual it taks getting mostly through the next xpac and for it to become so blatently obvious that everybody can see the change. I would expect the changes though in a few months, once they get the Beastlord fiasco launched.
I've always thought it would be cool to get something that would greatly improve our offensive/defensive capabilitys, but have a 50% Chance to make the berserker turn around and attack his party LOL. Not really lose aggro to the mob, pretty much everything turns red and it forces target to the nearest allie.
i roll my bruiser around in defensive full time, at no great loss to DPS. think i can do the same with my zerk? takes much longer to kill the mob and the defensive gains lose to the DPS benefits of offensive full time. it's been months since i actually took my zerker out of the guild hall even to farm some gimped zone. there will never be a need for even 6 tank spots in a raid, especially not all 6 tank types. not even going to aim for that. but it would be nice to at least have 1 subclass for each viable for a tank spot somehow and that still to this day does not stand and doesn't appear it will be in the future either. there will always be a rotation of classes in each expansion unless something changes with the fundamentals, balance is a pipedream.
