Tank Balance - Berserker

Discussion in 'Berserker' started by ARCHIVED-Berendor, Sep 26, 2011.

  1. ARCHIVED-Tekadeo Guest

    Wow it didn't take long for a thread entitled "Tank Balance - Berserker" to turn into a Brawler hate thread.
    What I do know is there are quite a few good opnions on how to fix the issues at hand, and it would be nice to see some of the changes made. As a Berserker, I feel like I do deserve to do T2 DPS, as long as it involves losing significant damage reduction (ie dual wielding, offensive stance, Juggernaut, freaking Jewel of Animosity if I want to). If I want to go nuts in Ascent in full raid gear, I darn well should be able to.
    I also know that atm our DPS is healer-like, our survivability is weak, and our hate generation is totally awful. Every Tank class has it's weak points and strong points, but right now it seems a Berserkers only strong point is power leveling. Amazing!
  2. ARCHIVED-Boli32 Guest

    Soul_Dreamer wrote:
    TSO also introduced the disarm... or at the least heavily implimented it. While it is thankfully less now than some mobs in TSO it also favours brawlers as they don't have a shield to disarm.
    tbh they should just do away with stances comepletly and add the buffs to the self buffs for ALL tanks.
    Although I have always said they should add ~ 10-20% uncontested parry when dual weilding or using a 2hander. That way plate tanks have the option of swapping in a shield for far greater frontal protection and brawlers will be able to modify the uncontested parry part via AAs and/or buffs. and if BOTH are disarmed both loose their benefits.
    It would also allow warriors to dual weild more effecitively and maybe classes such as berserkers would get a parry bonus dual weidling, and shadowknights would gain a parry bonus using a 2hander.
  3. ARCHIVED-Bruener Guest

    Boli@Splitpaw wrote:
    I have been an advocate for removing stances for a long long time. They can't ever get them right and every xpac you get the use of 1 stance like 90% of the time. Right now there is no reason a Brawler would leave defensive stance...the benefits are too good and the loss of DPS is very minimal (some claim you actually get more DPS from it). Plate tanks use Offensive stance 90% of the time because the tiny addition of mitigation far up into the curve is a minimal increase to physical damage reduction.
    Its just that they end up making 1 stance always better to use.
    And yes. Having innate avoidance is a big advantage because it doesn't matter if you DW, use 2h, or are disarmed. Crusaders and Warriors should not have to take such a huge avoidance loss by going DW/2h if 2 other Fighters don't have to. Not saying that DW/2h should have the same avoidance, but there should be a decent amount of avoidance...enough to tank trash/farm mobs. Or maybe just make it on 2h weapons and leave the DW while tanking to Brawlers.....would be real easy to add a protection value to 2h that is like 3/4 the protection value of a shield than block chance would work with the 2h to provide uncontested avoidance. 3/4 the protection would probably mean a 12%+ uncontested block chance loss going to a 2h which seems pretty balanced. Than just make sure 2h get to the level they should to compete with DW'ing.
    BTW, I have a serious problem with the mechanic +block chance giving Brawlers a lot more uncontested block than it does Plate tanks as well and this should be fixed besides Plate tanks having to wait to loot the extremely rare Mythical shield. Brawlers cap at like 175 while Plates don't cap until like 230 block chance due to the larger amount they receive per block chance, which also comes to them in more abundance. With a couple of the new +block chance weps they can DW it looks like they can self cap their uncontested block.
  4. ARCHIVED-CrazyHands Guest

    So yes Tanks need some love let me say that first. I have a 77 SK and a 90 Zerk. Havent seen an issue yet with my SK tanking other than aggroe control but that can prbly be said for most. My bigges issue is with my main 90 zerk. It seems we dont have a place in the game and if we do we have to pull bunnys out of our armor to make it work. I have 300 aa and prbly not the right setup as I keep trying to find the best one. Just when I think Ive got it I see a weekness and have to respec. It seems like I said we dont have a sweet spot when it comes to being a successful tank. We arent tough enough for raids and dont put out enough dps unless we have T4 Raid armor and adorns which of course you need to get slowly and unless you have a great guild willing to spoon feed you through the raid tiers then ur not invited.
    Thought my setup was good but come to find out its mostly buffs from healers / other toons helping me which of course is normal.
    My setup is War 10,10,10,1,8
    Agil 1
    Sta 10,0,0,0,4
    Wis 4,10,9,1
    Int 1
    Shadows is General 5 in max health and 5 in max pwr
    Fighter is full
    Warrior 5,0,5,0,0,0,1
    Berserker 5,0,0,5,4,0,1,1
    would list my zerk tree not sure how to type it so it makes sense lol
    This setup along with full Rygor and cm adorns 5pt ones has allowed me to tank pools ascent spire well pretty much all Dov harder ones with better healers of course but aggroe is continually lost especially when I have sins or mages in my grp. I successfully OT in x2 raids but Im sure thats only because the grp im OT in most dont have even Rygor gear yet. So do Zerks need some help / love? Yes I think soo. VoM and Battle Frenzy have saved my hide many times but still not good when I cant take a few hits before half my health is gone. My HP is 33,491 CC 222.1 CB 124.8, MA 126.4 MAE 101.6and CM is 162.8. Now Im told that tanks should atleast have 35k health so will respec AGAIN to see if I can squeeze out some more HP. Wheres my bunny?
  5. ARCHIVED-Soul_Dreamer Guest

    Gungo@Crushbone wrote:
    Aye makes sense, I can't see them going to this amount of effort though. At the same time something needs to be done, Brawlers shouldn't have all the tools they do and take substantially less damage than plate tanks. Simply reducing the amount of strike through mobs have, removing strike through immunity from the brawler defensive stance and adding strike through immunity to all defensive fighter buffs will fix it.

    Inquisitors have Maladroit (Useless AA) that reduces MA of mobs by 5%, maybe add a 25% strike through reduction.
    Rogue tree has TS in it, which is next to usless now that it doesn't work on 95% of mobs abilities, maybe change that to a strike though and MA reduction as well. 25% to both, even just straight up add it to the current debuff.
    Maybe change Cavaliers cry (Crusader Shadows line) from the 10% stifle imunity to a 10% strike through siphon.
    I'm sure a couple of other classes have similar debuffs that could be amended.

    If all these are multiplies instead of straight numbers then a mob with 20% strike though and 20% MA will have 8% (8* (1-(0.25 + 0.25 + 0.1)) strike through and 15% MA with all debuffs up. As the mobs get more these debuffs still stay effective.

    *Edit*
    I'm getting properly fed up with each expanion the ball swinging one way or another between the tank classes because of over buffing/mechanic changes/nerfing. Please stop playing with the tanks or adding to them until you can get the tanks into relative balance, as far as I'm aware the tank classes are the only ones with this problem. Sure some healers do better than others, some DPS does more DPS, some buffers are more preferred, but at the end of the day they can all fit into a raid and work.
    Some tank classes simply CANNOT perform the role of MTing raids and this needs to be addressed.
  6. ARCHIVED-Wasuna Guest

    Fighters aren't suppose to do good DPS. They are suppose to be able to generate hate and take hits so the people that can't take the hits can do their job, which is healing and DPS.
    And NO, fighters should NOT be able to click a couple of buttons and make themselves squishy and have their DPS shoot up. You show me the wizard that can click a button and now tank with Low DPS or the Assassin that can click a button and become a tank and not die when they get agro. As soon as you show me those people then tanks can have the same felxiability. Your a fighters and if you wanted to do DPS then you made the wrong class. Just becasue SoE had that completly screwed up for 2-3 years doesn't make it right or the thing that will fix all now.
    Are there things that can and should be fixed? Yes, their always is.
    This constant plea to be helpful to your raid by being given more choices and more abilitlity to fit different roles than any other class is just arrogant and selfish.
  7. ARCHIVED-InsaneChaosMarine Guest

    Wasuna wrote:
    Warlocks can tank and are very good tanks for heroics.
  8. ARCHIVED-Wasuna Guest

    What's your point? A naked, level 90, 0 AA, apprentice level spell warlock can slaughter Blackburrow.
  9. ARCHIVED-LygerT Guest

    Talathion@Antonia Bayle wrote:
    a mage outfitted in raid armor is not an example of how well someone can tank during progression.
  10. ARCHIVED-Bruener Guest

    Wasuna wrote:
    Its because of this belief that we went from Fighters being in an awesome spot in SF to Fighters being in a terrible position in DoV. Its because of the few people like this that the changes hit hard in DoV and likely won't get changed anytime soon. Being gargabe DPS in a completely DPS-centric game is broken.
    For some reason it is OP'd for raid tanks completely geared out in raid gear in SF to solo Library....
    Some day a while from now SOE will realize how dumb of a mistake they are making and shift it again and than people will actually play Fighters more and heroic groups won't constantly be looking for a tank because people will actually WANT to play their Fighters alts they rolled up. Some day bad tanks that can't figure out how to Tank while contributing good DPS and lazy DPS will get put back into their spots.
  11. ARCHIVED-Wasuna Guest

    Sure, some of the fighters were in an awesome place in SF. Being overpowered is probably the defination of awesome in a video game. I would suggest that if you thought you were in such an awesome place then you, by defination, agree that you were overpowered.
    Maybe someday people will realize that what they want isn't always what they should have and what they think is awesome is actually a slap in the face for all the people around them.
    Back on topic, I don't seem to see many Berserkers when I do PUG's on my alts.
  12. ARCHIVED-Soul_Dreamer Guest

    Wasuna wrote:
    No, they're very rare now
    With regard to fighter DPS, the whole game is DPS centric, only 2-3 fighters are needed in most content, a few 4 of us. If able to DPS well in offensive stance, the 3rd and 4th fighters may in some cases become static spots, not all but a couple of guilds may decide to have 4 fighters in a raid, and not just alts used when needed. This is a good thing for fighters isn't it?
    The whole argument for DPS isn't to over power fighters, it's to give us a use when not tanking.
    O Stance.
    Increases MA by 50% of current worn MA amount (250ma on worn armour would get an extra 125 added).
    Increases Crit bonus and Potency by 10%.
    Increases damage taken by 100%.
    Reduces block chance by 50%.

    Massive Damage increase so fighters can DPS, yes you'll still be able to tank some content in O stance, but with such a hefty penalty it won't be anything you're trying to progresson.

    D Stance.
    Keep as is, maybe add a new threat component globaly to all fighters D stances.
    10% of damage mitigated or avoided is added as hate.

    When you turtle up and are taking less damage, you get more hate, simple idea really :p
  13. ARCHIVED-Silzin Guest

    @Soul_Dreamer: I really like the your idea of “10% of damage mitigated or avoided is added as hate.” Although it sounds a lot like a Guard ability. Questions about it tho? Wouldn’t it all go off of unmitigated damage? So of these hits that are coming in at 50k+ after mitigation would be a 150k+ unmitigated hit and would give us 10k threat just from taking that hit? Like wise every hit that is avoided would give like 15k+ of threat? I like the concept of the idea but if I understand it correctly then it would also favor avoidance tanks more and we may just need a lower % or what ever. Like wise crusaders would have an advantage over warriors with the all time shield they use, and Guards would get a ton of agro off of there Stineskins. This may be a hit hard to code tho, not being a coder and all but it may be very hard. If this is done then the normal taunts would stop being some thing to spam to help with agro and be a tool to help climb or regain agro then a snap isn’t up or needed. Taunts need to be able to him a Huge quantity of agro when they are hit. I am talking like 100k+ for the ST taunt.
  14. ARCHIVED-Soul_Dreamer Guest

    Silzin@Crushbone wrote:
    Yes it would use the un-mitigated values as the base, It's relatively simple to simulate once you have the code implement the ability, TBH though I'm assuming unit testing isn't something SOE does very often from all the bugs that are introduced with changes. I am a coder but I'd have no idea how hard it would be to add something like this without seeing their code and being familiar with it.

    A 100k hit will hit for 35k or so when mitigated, so 65k is lost, 10% of that is only 6.5k Hate, so while it's not a massive amount, it will be every hit. Very large AOE's that are stoneskinned will be large chunks of hate yes and Guards will have an advantage there.
    You could change the wording to "Adds a portion of hate for all damage avoided or mitigated" and balance it per class though, maybe only add 5% for stoneskin hate on Guardians, and only 6% for damage avoided on Brawlers, where plate tanks gain 10% for damage avoided.
    Likewise Brawlers would gain 10% for damage mitigated, and Plate tanks only 8% for damage mitigated.
    We won't know exactly what these numbers are, but this way then you can keep the buff relatively similar for all classes.

    Change all normal taunts to proc effects instead of just direct taunts (the standard green and red one that is). All fighters get these and instead of having them as 10k hate each click when the recast is 8 seconds.. why not.. "Will proc 10k hate on each Combat art used" duration of 30 seconds, recast 20 seconds, charges 10. This way we aren't spamming the same button and we gain hate as we smack the mob. You base taunt is then a 100k taunt over 10 CA's rather than 100k hate in one shot which is basically a snap..
  15. ARCHIVED-Tekadeo Guest

    Yes every person who rolls a fighter wants to be a tauntbot. Sounds pretty -berserk- to me. I have a big sharp axe and giant muscles. But boy I sure don't wanna swing it cuz LOOK AT MY CRAZY EYES!!!
    Common misconceptions are common.
  16. ARCHIVED-Soul_Dreamer Guest

    Tekadeo wrote:
    Just trolling I assume?

    How does - Passive hate and making taunts fire on CA's equal a taunt bot?

    With the above changes, the flavour of none of the tanks will change, but all of them will gain hate in defensive stance (where it's needed most) and will only have to "Taunt" once every 20 seconds...
  17. ARCHIVED-Boli32 Guest

    Soul_Dreamer wrote:
    Having played in the aborted tank changes on test a while ago I can assure you this is the most boring method of tanking *ever* and pretty much makes every CA /spell heck even timing autoattacks when your hit rate drops even further down as pretty much useless.
    It also renders the DPS fighters give to groups/raids as pretty much "flavor" and "not much use"; meaning offensive and defensive fighters are messed up. I mean who would bring a Beserker over a Guardian if a zerker did 60k and a guard did 50k when DPS characters do 400k? You might as well give zerkers all of the guardians defensive buffs then as the DPS difference is so minor...
    Taunts imho should be short term buffs which proc hate or increase hate from the fighters DAMAGE - no-one wants to be turned into a tauntbot; after a certain point it becomes useless to increase hate... if you can hold agro by generating 300 hate/second... what's the point in dealing 500 hate/second?
    No other class has its use and capability routineuly stripped and ability to do more than what you ask rendered useless.
    Imagine if DPS classes routinuely had their DPS reset to zero randomly throughout a fight; or if they did 400k DPS it killed the mob at the same speed as if they did 100k DPS. Or chanters being told "since they regen mana there is no need for them to deal DPS - that's the DPS's job" and making their offensive spells only hit 40% of the time.
    No-one wants to play a game where you are not rewarded for playing well and skill was "capped" and as much as people try to force it on tanks if agro was held purely by taunting it woud quite frankly ruin the last part of the game which is any fun for tanking.
  18. ARCHIVED-Tekadeo Guest

    Soul_Dreamer wrote:
    It's not trolling when it's true, and tbh that wasnt directed at your post, which I actually liked.
    Am I happy doing less DPS than healers? No. Am I okay with simply being to control aggro since I can't do solid DPS? I freaking guess, but please believe I'm not happy about it.


    My post was directed at this hunk of garbage:
    Wasuna wrote:
    Again I what am I carrying this giant axe for then???? I should just carry a book of insults so's I can taunt better!
    People who roll Berserkers, Shadowknights and even Brawlers are there to do BOTH. If you want to be a Guardian or a Paladin you aren't as concerned with it...that's why you have hate transfers and modifiers. We all do the same job, we simply do it differently. As it stands now Pallies and Guards do pretty much the same DPS as Zerkers and SK's and it is not the way the game was designed.
    Stop trying to pigeonhole all tanks to one form of playing when the game has six DIFFERENT tank choices.
  19. ARCHIVED-Tekadeo Guest

    Boli@Splitpaw wrote:
    QFE
  20. ARCHIVED-Soul_Dreamer Guest

    As I said, just give us the MA of scouts while in offensive stance along with some potency and CM, make this scale with what you have on your char and it will scale with gear.
    BUT, you can't allow tanks to tank in this stance really, because those who can will just be the tanks of choice for next expansion, just like Guards in RoK, SK's in TSO, Brawlers in late SF/DoV. Which means defensive stances need changing, and they need to be changed so the more defensive tank X gets, the more hate they get.. Agro procs proccing on being hits... lol, I get more hate the more I'm damaged, great f**king planning there.
    It's all fine and good to claim to be an offensive tank, but even the offensive fighters need to turtle up to tank the bigger named, if not.. why have defensive tanks at all.

    Once done there, change taunts so we don't have it on a 8 second recast and is a temp bufff as suggested, lots of classes have them, make these taunt on CA's. Add Strike through immunity to temporary saves, Tsunami/Dragoons/Wall of Force etc.

    Next, tweak the balance issues. TWEAK, don't go in with a sledge and create the Zerker/Pally/Guardian/ of the TSO SK, or DoV Brawler.
    Paladins - A decent stone skin. Take one of their heals and make it a Magic only ward, decent size, 30k+ for AOE's. It won't effect Heroic cos most damage there is Melee. Maybe a 1 min recast. Another snap tool on a relatively short recast, 2 mins, to use with other abilities.
    SK's - A little squishy, some sort of permenant/proccing damage reduction. Death march could be a perma buff of 10% Damage reduction and say some spell Double attack... then proc on the march on mobs deaths as it does now. Some slight damage reduction and mage group utility. Could do with graves being reduced in recast or another Snap added.
    Zerkers - Defensive changes above will sort their defensive hate, maybe a small increase in DPS and a damage absorb or 2 to help with the neutering of Adrenalin. Change of abilities that cap easily, 100% AOE, Berzerk proc etc.
    Guards - Pretty much fine where we are, but now when we turtle up we'd have hate.
    Brawlers - More than fine where they are, removal of Strike through immunity from defensive stance.

    Realistically that should sort most major issues.

    *EDIT*
    After that, I'd love (but never will ) to see the day where 4 tanks are the norm in raids, because their utility both group/raid/and tank lends are useful enough to warrant it. Rather than has always been the case of.... bring ONLY the number of fighters required.
    Maybe make the fighter avoidance buff stack, so each one on the "Primary" tank, transfers 5% of damage to the caster, like intercepting sword blows etc.

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