Yeah, i don't think ya can Tenal. You gotta be level70 because level64 doesn't seems to matter much to other particular Dirges "who have been lvl70 for many many months." I have also read from lvl70 Dirges how their abilities to support the primary healer and many debuffs helps dramatically. Yet, this is ignored by particular Dirges that have posted here stating they are just good for their group buffs. "Don't Kill the Messenger" dramatically improves DPS when a lvl47 fella is able to critical hit at 1,200 to 1,700 damage a couple times in a decent fight by using just one spell and not including the other damage CAs/spells. Will be interesting what the critical hits will be once i'm in tier6. AA improvements on Debuffs help as well. The dramatically less resistance a mob has than the more disease or slashing/piercing damage they receive. AAs that reduce recast rates on the double-shot root attack also noticeably increases DPS if ya are a Tinkerer utilizing the root tinker item in addition to the Round Bash and Fear. So stating that "dirges get 0 AAs that increase our damage" is a pure lie.
Wow, I totally forgot the double shot root AA. how could I have overlooked that for serious dps.....I must have been sleeping for ages, but now my eyes are wide open.
I think Sky is just posting to get a high post count. If you don't believe us fine. The biggest problem is that Dirges have a lower dps ceiling than most classes. Whoever posted that he's at lv64 and feels he kills quicker than with his warden. Give than warden a blackscale maul with double attack and melee crits maxed and just on that the warden will kill faster no matter what you do with your dirge. I am amazed at what some people here can do zone wide dps wise. I myself top out at 800 going all out or I can chill and do 600 zonewide. My dirge is by far my better equipped toon but I can solo faster and harder things with my SK and INQ at lv70. Am leveling an Illusionist and a Conjurer now and they are a breeze too. My baby melee Warden is pretty cool too. Honestly I can't think of 1 class that decently equipped (master crafted & adept 3s) is a worst soloer at lv 70 than a Dirge. If you talk about fabled equipped that gap widens even more. Maybe a Guardian. So there, we might be able to solo better than Guardians in master crafted gear (in fabled not a shot) so we must be uber. Everyone here knows (or has a clue) what we bring to a group but to say we are powerful soloers is a big stretch.
juzam wrote: I bet a warden's DPS is pointless if they did not have good healing. Which to believe, a lvl64 Dirge who solos or lvl70 dirges who don't solo with their Dirge. I was told that a tier7 Dirge could not even solo green con ^^^ heroics. I wonder if there are other tier7 Dirges like Tenal that would state otherwise and actually are able to solo these. which to believe.
Hard to be persuaded by simple generalities and generic parsing numbers. I bet ya that SOE utilizes these generalities as nothing more than an indication of something that needs to be addressed instead of how the issue should be resolved. Murrcurry is actually the only fella that has received my attention. Murrcurry, I hope ya follow up.
SkyBee wrote: Ok 4 pages of posts from arguably the most dedicated helpful class board and it comes down to this. Good luck with your dirge with this attitude solo is about all you can look forward to.
Thanks, I've been doing quite well so far which I am surprised since I am just a Bard. I have no problems only grouping instead of soloing when I am tier7 if I am not able to solo well in tier7. Zero problems with this. My guild is always willing to help.
T7 Dirges can solo green cons, dirges can solo some Blue and White cons too. All people are saying is it takes longer than other classes and our damage output is less than them. We have buffs for the group which is part of why we do less damage, but also our AAs are centered on utility rather than personal damage and that is part of it as well. Kall was pointing that out, that our AA's don't increase our damage in relation to other players. For instance Don't Kill the Messenger that you mentioned increases our Spell and Melee criticals by 7.5%. Where other Scouts get 13.5% melee crits, and predators gain 52% spell crits. Not to mention that if they're grouped with us they gain the 7.5%. Bards are not a gimped class, we're just a very utility buff centered class which is what prompts the "Dirges do not deal much damage". As a result of scaling the fact that our AAs contribute as much to everyone as they do ourselves our personal DPS falls behind. I already responded to the stats thing, doing damage is our primary role outside buffing and resurrecting. Strength and Intelligence work to accomplish that goal, Agility and Stamina help our power and HP, and Wisdom is worthless. Strength followed by Intelligence should be the the main focus of a dirge striving to fill the DPS role. The need for magical resistances is minimal in the game, occasionally named have aoes, but HP mitigates it as well often better than resists, for every day gear there is no gain from having resists over better stats or procs. Magical resistances should not be a concern. Dirges do not solo as well as most other classes in the game at T7. In order to solo most on tier named we need to kite them, we don't deal enough damage to kill them toe to toe and our mitigation is not strong enough to withstand more than a few hits. Having a shield doesn't change this. Yea I really don't know what more to offer, I've taken time to type up realistic thought out responses to your points and you continue to have a demeaning attitude towards players who have far more knowledge and experience than you. To say that after people have invested time in responding to your naive statements that their opinions on part of the game you haven't touched are wrong is both ignorant and disrespectful so this is the last response I'm wasting my time on. Topanga wrote:
Well said Top I use to think that at least we could solo better than the priest class, but Furys and Wardens own us. Knew that Inq battle spec well but now have observed Temps taking down mobs my Dirge cant handle. Maybe just maybe we can solo as well as defilers and mystics but i doubt it.
I just want to chime in here to state that I have been getting the same nay saying "you will not be able to do X in X tier" For AGES now. I am a 45 Dirge and I have yet to acutally see the change. Sure 70 may be tough, but I have no doubt that I will figure it out. What I am unsure about is if everyone is using this level 70 story as a crutch to "explain" their own lacking or what. Sure things get harder, but we get some nice stuff as we progress to 70, you cannot deny that.
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: I couldnt disagree more: Top Says: We have buffs for the group which is part of why we do less damage This has always been the case. Why is this any different at 70? Most of my buffs are for group, but guess what, they are awesome and they work on US too. If your using the hate gain on yourself while your soloing I can see what your saying, but why would u do that??? Top Says: but also our AAs are centered on utility rather than personal damage and that is part of it as well. WRONG. Sure, we, just like everyone have aas that are based on group playability etc. But take a long hard look at what we get and tell me it doesnt help our own playability/dps. We get addition to our utility (heals, power regen, falling dmg, fear etc) as well as some great offensive and defensive abilities. I really emplore you to try specing full STA AGI in the Bard tree and then go Luck with COB, Increase heal amount, lower sapping shot line recast, etc. You will be AMAZED how much dmg you can do. I have tested my ranged bow root attack, and at its highest, with all the procs etc it did almost 2000 dmg from just that ONE CA. And im not joking at all. It normally does about 1100 or so and remember folks this is at level 45 with a stupid mastercrafted bow. our blocking ability with a shield is just crazy insaine. Anyone who uses dual wield IMO is just crazy. I have a 54% avoidance at level 45 and I havent even begun to scratch the surface of my AA block abilities. Or Parry is simply off the charts. Top Says: Strength followed by Intelligence should be the the main focus of a dirge striving to fill the DPS role. Sure, this works on paper, but the facts of the mater are there are many fascets of this game. This, IMO is where people go wrong. People who focus on one or two particular stats are falling short in many other areas. I go for full effect gear. Balanced... not weighted heavily in one area. Hell, my Wisdom is my highest stat for gods sake. Top Says: Magical resistances should not be a concern. I am sorry to say, this is why you may have the views you do. This could not be more incorrect IMO. I would say a good 50% or more of mobs dmg is from some sort of resist based attack. Parse the next fight with a named and I think youll be suprised at your findings. Our poison ward is a great thing to have if u can afford the aa. Top Says: Dirges do not solo as well as most other classes in the game at T7 Sure, were not necros with a tank in our pocket, but give us a chance and we can supprise a lot of people. We are the sleeper class in waiting if used correctly. And we CANNOT compare our soloing ability to others, its just not fair tbh, but that doesnt mean we cant strive to do better. While we will never solo what a wizard can, that will be true for 90% of the classes. You cannot hold dirge, or any class for that mater to thoes standards, but we can be good at it. Top Says: Having a shield doesn't change this. I beg yet again to differ. We can DPS just as much with a 1h and the bonus's gained from a shield far out weight dual IMO. Edit: Colors for readability
@Killque That CA you speak of that normally does 1100 damage for you.. the upgrade of that does around 1200 at level 70.. infact.. the biggest damaging spell we got does about 1700 with about 500 int. As for stats and avoidance etc, then those doesnt really go up that much from 45 to 70. Sure, we are able to get some rather nifty gear with big hitpoint bonuses and all. But a level 70 Dirge kitted it raid gear will have about 6200-6500 hitpoints. This may seem like alot compared to that of a level 45 dirge. Its probably around double. The thing is that mobs are not hitting twice as hard... no, they are hitting 4 times... 6 times as hard. Increaseed mitigation will ofcourse take some of the sting out of it, but it doesnt make up for the fact that a heroic named within a few levels of a level 70 dirge will put the dirge in the ground in a matter of seconds. Sure... debuffing the mob does help, but to be honest with you, then I am still using the same offensive debuffs as you are. Yup, thats right.. I am using the level 44 Master II version of Daro's Sorrowful Dirge. Reason for this is that its about half the power cost of its upgrade (level 58 - Daro's Disconsolate Dirge) plus it is debuffs the mobs attack speed by only 1% less. As for the DPS.. I also play a lil level 50'ish gnome warlock. I often group with a dirge. And sure.. I out DPS him as I should, but the difference is definately not as big as it is when I group with a warlock as my 70 dirge. I'd say that I am out DPS'ed by warlocks by about double. But when playing as my warlock I perhaps out DPS dirges of the same level by 30-50% I am sure that you will see things different once you get toward the end of T7. Or.. lets hope that your view is still the same, cause that will mean that things have changed for the better
Just as a comment from someone who has no interest in this argument, but has a baby Dirge in the works. I have screwed around with just about every class till level 10, just to see their aa's. And it seems like so far that Bards are really the only classes that in KOS and EOF AA lines get no AA's that increase our dps/soloability. All STA does is make up for the missing dps you lose by going sword and board instead of dual wield, maybe a bit higher. I believe people who say Dirge CA's don't scale well at high end, and that can be a huge issue, but lacking any AA specs that allow Dirges to do better dmg must REALLY hurt. At the very least they could try to turn the STA line into the soloing/dps line, they could change lend shielding, since I think it is just about the worst 24 point talent given to any class that I have personally seen. Just the point of view of a Warlock.
I'm glad someone finally brought that up. It isn't that we dont get some tricks, and neat abilities. We do. We have all kinds of stuff that makes us "ABLE" to do "some" things, but when you compare us to others, that get to do "some amazing" things, it kinda hits us below the belt. EoF introduced AAs. The mobs and stuff in EoF were built in consideration of these AAs. It's funny too, how the scaling works. Seriously... our debuff is 1% diff? Our bow attack gets 100 more dmg? Resists SKYROCKET through the roof in T7, and we get NOTHING to upgrade our disruption or ordination without sacrificing the very stats that we need to survive. I have to kit myself in Mage/Shaman gear to get those upgrades... Listen, nobody said we're a terrible class. We are all Dirge's (bards) for a reason. We enjoy what we do, which is why we keep playing them. I like the challenge of it. The references to how we get "gimped" are valid though... our upgrades don't scale right, our gear selection is piss poor, and our AAs are for the GROUP, when I think EVERY OTHER single archtype gets some abilities that help them scale their dps for solo'ability. You can be a successful solo'er in T7. I know I am. But having 4 other level 70 toons, and playing them, I consistently laugh when I look at the AAs / spells / gear selection and thing, wow, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING? the only conclusion I come to is this... "probably not a lot"
Duuf, rest assured, both shaman's can also solo better and faster than Dirges if they spec for it which most do since it's a good build. Sky yes, if Warden's didn't heal their DPS wouldn't be enough for them to count as a DPS class. The point is that with very minor upgrades they can do more DPS than a reasonably equipped dirge plus they can heal themselves thus being better and faster soloers. Killque at 70, DW owns 1H + Shield in DPS and now more than before because you can get 10% double attack with DWs. At your level is far easier to get a good 1H than 2 good DWs. I wonder what other Skybee and Killque play that are so awful at soloing that they find that Dirges are so awesome at it. I'll chip in that at lv70 yes, dirges can tank some green ^^^. Yes you can also kite blues, whites and yellows if you have the space but again, that's not good soloing and it certainly not fast. All mages can root/cook white ^^^ much more easily, so can both druids. SKs, Zerkers and both Brawlers can solo them going toe to toe with good equipment. Paladins probably can too but I'm not sure. Guardians if they have high fabled equipment. The clerics and shamans might have big problems doing high con heroics but I KNOW they can solo faster and safer exp wise than us. Last but not least, Troubadors are great soloers, they kite better than us and their charm and mezz are awesome for soloing. As for other scouts, predators kite better than us, rogues go toe to toe with heroics incredibly well. The point is, you can't tank a white con or a high blue heroic at 70 and you don't have roots. If you kite them it's very slow and you need room, something good soloers don't need. Anyway I'm done with the thread, Dirge is a nice class if you wanna be an ostrich and don't see how other classes solo fine, if you believe you are a great soloer good for you but don't try to convince us at lv70 that we don't know how to play our class. WIS is your highest stat? that made me have a good laugh, this thread does deliver on that at least.
Killque wrote: This is the problem with future dirge community now. Most of you are too ignorant to know when you're getting offered good advice, so I wouldn't be surprised if that advice just stopped being offered. I could take 5 minutes and write up a post on exactly why Topanga is right and you're wrong but I'm not going to waste my time! I'm sure at level 45 you think you know exactly what's going on, however, your post indicates you have no clue at all.
juzam wrote: I laughed at that too. STR and INT are absolutely critical to our DPS output. Don't believe it? Get some cheap gear with a focus on various stats like STA and WIS and parse your DPS to see what happens. The more STR and INT I put on my Dirge the harder I hit. If I put on some STA / WIS gear I'd hit far worse than I do now. As to resists... on my level 70 Warden who runs with 700+ WIS, Fabled / Legendary gear and all resists above 6000, most in the 8000 range... I STILL get whacked with AE's from Epic mobs. Now granted, the effect does get mitigated by the high resists but they still get through. Thinking that if you have high WIS and high resists you'll be fine is simply misguided. Against normal / heroic mobs you will actually resist things but against epics and lvl 70+ mobs you ARE going to get hit. Bottom line is that Bards are not the best soloer's at level 70. Period. They can do it but other classes can do it better. At level 45 - 47 I was doing quests 5 levels above me and taking out yellow con ^ mobs with ease. At 64, not so much...
