[p]Dirges (and bards in general) are freaking awesome at those lower lvls. When you get to the end game though you realize that your class has not scaled well in comparison to the mobs you fight and the other classes. Our self heals, DPS, survivability all scale very poorly so that in the end you are playing a very different class.[/p][p] [/p][p]Topanga@Everfrost wrote: [/p] [p]Dirge used to solo better than any class I had ever played. Then several nerfs and the poor scaling issues caused dirge to be worst class to solo with, that I have ever played. [/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
Worst class to solo with and Dirges are able to solo ^^^ names two level below the Dirges adventure level all thru tier5 and I will soon know if this applies to the tier6 realm in a couple of months or so. Yeah, this is terrible. If you're referring to just the tier7 realm, then this is an entirely different issue. All players do not player for the end-game. Orani has been my only adventurer since Nov'07 and I'm still lvl47. If what is said about Dirge tier7 realm is true, then the revamp near the upcoming xpak might resolve this when tier8 is introduced. If not, then this makes me wonder about what is said about Dirge tier7 realm.
Seriously, what is the criteria for a Dirge to be a decent soloer. Should their monster manipulation durations be extended so they can solo "at least white con ^^^ names" in tier5. What is the expected criteria? Once again, I am only a lvl47 Dirge so making general statements of "Dirge sucks in tier7 so they suck in all tiers" does not tell the truth. The only reason why I am skeptical is due to folk telling me that tier5 was going to be tough and slow for me to solo, but soloing in tier5 is not tough nor slow. Awkward stat allocations Duubard.
Seems like the only type of elaborate answer I'm able to obtain from tier7 folk is a generic "oh yeah Dirges are terrible soloers especially at tier7, yep yep" and not much else is said. Another question out of curiosity for tier7. Are finding good tier7 items tough with the diversity of stats you were able to find in the lower tiers? If so, this might be the unfortunate bad luck of high competition due to a very noticeable crowd of EQ2 players being end-game players.
Most of the comments about soloing for a Dirge are being compared to other classes and their ability to solo (i.e. wizard, coercer, necro, zerker, etc). It's not that a Dirge can't solo, it's just that they aren't as good as other certain classes for this purpose, so you have to pick your fights carefully.
Once all my armor is upgraded for my lvl and as long as the mobs lvl is two levels below my adventurer, this is all of the criteria names must meet for me. Once my armor is mastercrafted and spells adept3, i'm able to solo at very least ^^^ named mobs 7 to 10 levels below my adventure level. Entirely disregarding other subclasses, how is this terrible soloing? I have adventured as a Conjuror a long time ago and I do remember he was able to solo white con ^^^ names quite well as long as the monster did not attack the Conjuror. If they did, he was destroyed. However, my Conjurer still had to utilize his spells as masters and use dang good equipment. I wonder why players think DPS is the answer to making a better soloer than what they are currently. Extending the monster manipulation spells would achieve the same end result. Seems like all this talk about DPS spawns from a "low self esteem" when seeing Dirge's near or at the bottom of the parser. I bet the SOE EQ2 gods are cursing the folk who developed parsers because they might just want some subclasses to be more valuable than just DPS. I am hoping folk would answer my questions found in many of my posts. I am seriously looking for more of an answer instead of "well Furies and Paladins do more DPS than Dirges so Dirges should do more" or "Dirges are terrible soloers at tier7 so they are just slow and weak soloers over all". I am very interested in what tier7 will be like. Currently, when folk display those parse things, i'm usually higher than the tank which is ok in my book.
[p]as a high parseing lvl 70 dirge in a raid guild ill tell you this[/p][p]it is hard to explain the differnce when you hit 60+ or for that matter 55+[/p][p]sorta have to experance it for your self[/p][p]has a little bit to do with dps has a little to do with our buff and debuff scaling blowing goats T6 to T7 were as until recent you where better off useing a T6 master then a T7 master because you only lost 3points to 2% of the debuff for a huge power cost difference[/p][p]ytuo say we should not be good dps because of our utilty? thats strait BS lol i dont think we should top the parser by any means but when you look at the buffs furys get and the fact they can self heal and they dps higher then most dirges (not all)[/p][p]same with mele speced wardens and mystics look at the wards debuffs heals and then the DPs thats where most the envy is comming from.[/p][p]but over all im happy just little tweaks lol[/p][p]ill elaborate more later.[/p][p]ps sorry for the horid spelling im half asleep and not in the mind set to proof read[/p]
Doh, my apologies, I added the below sentence right after Murrcurry made his post : I bet the SOE EQ2 gods are cursing the folk who developed DPS only parsers because they might just want some subclasses to be more valuable than just for the DPS.
Thank you very much Murrcurry. I hope you do follow up. I wonder if part of it is where the next debuff upgrades are not given until tier8 in the xpack because I am aware that I have received most of my spell upgrades every 14 or 15 adventure levels.
Murrcury@Crushbone wrote: You say "furies ... dps higher than most dirges (not all)". This is a huge admission because many of the posts i've read would not even attempt to submit this. Do Furies get the vast amount of monster manipulation, vast amount of monster debuffing, and improve hate management as a Dirge as I have described on page one? Since Dirge's are able to extensively support Priests thru rezing, health point transference, and Confront fear (as I described on page one), can I assume that Furies are able to do something the same such as intercepting damage from the tank affect the fury HP and the Fury physically sharing its mitigation on the tank and something along these lines with primary DPS casters to make them a hybrid? I doubt Druids are as much of a hybrid as Bard. Will anyone please give a quick, short and easy, paragraph or two on how they are hybrids? Now I do not deny that there are hybrids in each archetype such as i guess Shamans in the Priest archetype and Enchanters in the Mage archetype and I would have no idea about the Fighter archetype; now i'm guessing here about the other three archtypes because i am only familiar with the bard. A hybrid does much more than DoTs, single and group target DPS, group and solo buffing, and the occasional couple of stuns or debuffs.
Exactly. I never said that "oh Dirge's usefulness, or utility, is much better than any other". I have never said this. This thought was introduced by other folk in some twisted jealous defense that does not further the discussion beyond two kids saying "mines better". It's not about this. There are subclasses with a high volume of DPS and there are subclasses with a high volume of the other abilities. There is always going to be a subclass in each archetype that will be at the bottom of the parse due to the construction of the subclass. I'm told that this applies to the Bard in Scout archetype and Enchanters in the Mage archetype. If these other abilities for Dirges (and I guess Enchanters since they were mentioned previously) do not equalize their average, or low, DPS, then the Dirges DPS should be increased. Otherwise, prepare for SOE "nerfing" Dirges abilities for the sake of DPS. Fellas like me do have something to say if all this parsing is missing more variables that is not seen and considered by folks who do not perform the assessments that determine the adjustments. Appears each has been discussed. Thanks for the feedback. All of it is interesting. Happy hunting!!!
[p]How much damage a dirge does depends solely on the skill, equipment, and spell level of the Dirge. If you have a Dirge with all Handcrafted and App1 spells, he's gonna blow chunks. I am a middle road Dirge. I use Mastercrafted with a mixture of App4's, Ad1's, Ad3's, and Master 1 or 2's (depending entirely on how much I use the spell). I am spec'd Int+Wis, with points in Life + Death for the extra heals on Cry of the Dead + Bereavement, and Luck for the Power Regen.[/p][p]I primarily group, since it is faster xp, but I have no problems soloing. At level 55, I could not solo a Blue conn ^^^. It does too much damage, whether or not you dodge or absorb magic damage. When something hits for 550-800 damage, you're not going to survive many hits with only ~4k hp, shield dodge or not. Don't know if that will magically change at 56 with the higher Lifetaps, etc... but my guess is no. (Although, I don't like running around, so I don't kite much.. but.. meh.) [/p][p]Solo.. if I choose to use my bow and kite.. I will open up with the lvl 55 scaling DoT, Debuff with the Debuff Slow, the mitigation Debuff, stun, guttering shriek, and the second slow to run off and begin the bow kite + luda's. Personally, I don't think Dirge's are broken in any way. You can still solo really well, even taking on 2-3 mobs at once, dealing with the occasional add without too much of a problem. Heroics are on a different level entirely. They take skill and effort to kill, and the normal player will not be able to kill even a green heroic ^^^.[/p]
[p]I'm so glad I come here to the Dirge boards and every once in a while read some up and coming Dirge tell people that have been max level for the past 2 years they are wrong about their class[/p][p]it's pretty cool[/p]
Swipe@Nagafen wrote: [p] LOL QFE[/p][p] [/p][p]I'm sorry Skybee but when you get here hopefully you will understand. It's just a different world. I could not believe how my once beloved dirge became the most un-fun class I have. [/p]
[p]I'm level 64 right now, do I get to tell everyone else that they are wrong about Dirges?[/p][p]I'm not going to get into sepecific responses on things but I will say that of my two main characters, a Warden and a Dirge, the Dirge can kill faster and is more fun in combat. Can I take on ^^^ heroics with my Dirge? Sure, if they are green or grey. Can I take on ^^^ heroics with my Warden? Yes and can take down white (even-con) heroics with a little skill and luck. Why can I take on bigger / harder targets with my Warden? Because she can heal herself... duh! [/p][p]The biggest issue I've seen with Dirges once they enter the T6 - T7 range is as stated many many times above is the really piss poor scaling of our spells and CA's. AA enhancements help but you shouldn't HAVE to use the AA's to make up for a lack of scaling. I've been very careful to try and maximize STR and INT stats to try and add more effectiveness and so far I'm happy with the results though I can see that things aren't going to get much better over the next few levels.[/p][p]I can solo non ^ mobs 4 levels above me with out much problem so I can solo in the upper zones okay and do quests which suits my playstyle just fine for now. We'll see how it is in a couple of more levels. The real reason I made my Dirge was to begin raiding and enhance other classes. That is where we shine and I'm happy to do that so our overall chance of success is increased. I don't need to be the star of the show with the highest DPS parse.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
[p]The dirge isn't so much **** at 70 as it's not balanced with other classes. [/p][p]Think about all the other archtypes in the game, and realize the dirge really isn't getting the "attention" that others are. Are we powerful? YES VERY VERY POWERFUL... but we are so heavily group dependent in our abilities we have been given the term "buff bot". There isn't a lot of interactive play REQUIRED by a dirge or a troubador in raids or even groups aside from the occasional "cacophony, or jester's cap on someone. Can the group/raid get more out of us if we're debuffing appropriately, etc etc.. SURE... but raids aren't inviting bards for their debuffs, they are inviting them for their BUFFS. Things we have to do NOTHING to apply.[/p][p]I originally built my Dirge for raiding, to be just that, a buff bot. I'm on Nagafen in a PvP guild... hardly anyone made a Dirge because they are one of the gimpest PvP classes in the game. Can I make my group crazy? yes, but in PvP a lot of people want to "solo" because somehow they think that's the true test of their personal PvP ability. to kill someone else without help... I levelled my dirge to 70 almost completely solo, in Exile, wearing an infamous guild tag that most people despised. I was hunted, and chased through zones, but I still managed to get to 70 in only 6-7 weeks actual play time... The dirge was very powerful thoughout all the tiers until I hit T7.. at T7 I noticed a DISTINCT shift in what I was able to do, while other classes just seemed to get more and more powerful. Our stuff doesn't scale right.. it just doesn't "COMPARED" to other classes.[/p][p]I have since decided to play my dirge full time for PvP. Because I want to play a hard class for PvP. I was a brigand , which is known to be a very easy class to PvP with. I remember fighting dirges and laughing at how fast they died. ... now i'm in the driver's seat and I have my challenges cut out for me. It's not easy... but it's doable. [/p][p]I love my Dirge... he's a ****, but he's not "as good" as other classes out there for solo pve, or pvp... our roles are VERY DISTINCT and defined for us by SOE, because we can't "change what we do with stances or abilities" we can't decide to be DPS, because we can't... we're buffers.. almost exclusively... and that is why the bards are pissed. [/p][p]how much skill or personal ability is required of us to shine? not a whole lot. People are mostly just happy to have us be there, anything else is gravy.[/p][p] [/p][p] [/p]
There has been alot said in the past 3 pages, I read through it and don't have time to respond to all of it. I wear Qeynos Kilij and Buckler of the Howler when I solo named, because I kite them and these items both have procs that trigger off of ranged attacks. At level 70 you really cannot toe-to-toe very many named encounters at all. I have cleared up to the last named in Nest a few times which is level 65-66 monsters, by pretty much clearing the zone up to each named and using the free space available behind me to move. If any of these named get in melee range they kill a fabled player in a matter of 3-4 hits, its not really conceivable to sword and board and try to melee them down. Poets Palace level range of 60-65 I can do most everything up to the last named using DWs and melee, and have to go ranged for the final named. For non named encounters I use DWing because its more damage outgoing, and generally I can dps non-named down before they can kill me. I really don't know what more to offer you, other than play the game and see for yourself at T7 you will not be killing named 2 levels below you toe-to-toe. The mobs have a ton more HP and even with a shield can kill you in a matter of a few swings. SkyBee wrote: Parsers are key in telling players a lot of information that SOE was too dimwitted to include in the game. DPS is just one of the important pieces of information gained. And Parsers (at least ACT the only one I have experience with) also breaks down where the damage comes from, Combat Arts, Spells, Procs, etc. It doesn't figure in all the dirge buffs, but it gives a player information on some of them to assess the value of them. The reason people are bringing up their issues with other classes out DPSing them is because we're members of the Scout archetype. Fighters are tanks, Healers heal, Mages and Scouts do damage. Yes Bards have buffs so does every class in the game, many of them have group ones like us, are they the same in function, clearly no, but it's not like Bard's ability to buff a whole group is a unique ability. When compared to another archetype like healers that should primarily be a healer, they have group/single target buffs, resurrect spells, debuffs, and with their achievement lines are able to have Critical Hits percentages that bring their DPS very close to or in some cases exceeding the level of a Bard. So they are offering similar abilities and are also able to heal players. I mean its not that black and white, healers don't offer power regeneration, and Bard buffs stack with healer buffs, so there are benefits to using most of the different classes. But when you're examining the game in terms of damage output and the majority of the fighters and healers are capable of dealing more damage than a scout class, it seems like something is a bit out of line. Either you're god's gift to the Dirge class or you will see what all of us are talking about at 70. I grouped through most of my XPing so I really can't speak to our solo abilities in the early and mid levels, this was also my first character so her gear sucked, and spell quality wasn't that great either, so even if I had solo'd it probably wouldn't have given me a fair picture of what a mastered out lowbie dirge could do. I do feel like I can honestly say we have a harder time soloing now than what you're describing and our personal damage output is not close to in line with other DPS classes, coming from the perspective of someone who now does have level appropriate gear and spells, and the better part of a year play time experience with the class.
[size="x-small"] You're more powerful at the early levels because they were designed to be played through without AAs.[/size] Seriously, do people not remember this? It wasn't even that long ago. A lot of people nailed it saying our debuffs/buffs scale horribly. That's still a major issue. The other factor is that Dirges get 0 AAs that increase our damage where nearly every other subclass has an entire KoS and EoF AA line devoted to it. Topanga wrote: This summed up exactly what I thinking after I wasted my time reading this nonsense, although I have to say it was slightly entertaining.
