I am suprised reading about how particular players think : -----Dirges do not deal much damage -----Agility and strength is the main focus -----Magical resistances should not be a concern. -----Dirges do not solo well. I have experienced my dirge dealing critical damage a little above 2,000 with my master strike. My Luda shriek spells and my master strike consistently deal the same damage except for critical strike damage. The examine information about my Luda shriek damage is 498-830 and my master strike damage is 826-1377; yet the damage of these two attacks are consistent. My target encounter AoE damage is 335-559 and I have seen this spell deal critical strikes around 700-1000 a couple instances during long group battles. I luv the AA group buff called "Don't Kill the Messenger". However, I still have room to slightly update some of my dirge's items with adornments, and I am currently wearing three fabled items with the rest being mastercrafted. When I was tier4, I was able to solo ^^^ dungeon names that were two levels below the Dirge's adventure level, and I bet ya I can repeat this success in tier5. I explicitly state "dungeon" in this because kiting a monster is very difficult in a crowded zone when repops must be considered while fighting the monster. Playing a dirge involves a multitude of monster manipulation, damage dealing single and multiple target spells, two types of range attacks, hate transfer, all group buffs cost one concentration except for the free group speed buff, self-healing only combat arts, health point transference, single target in-combat/out-combat rez, a group rez, and normal melee combat arts. With the Life and Death subclass AA line, a Dirge can become a tremendous group support to the primary healer. Unfortunately, I have not had the opportunity to utilize the health point transference and group rez due to my adventure level. I would explain all this more in detailed if I was not get'n tired. This is dirge Orani on Unrest. Dirge is lvl47 with 87 AAs and, after glancing at my quest journal, I am able to say that I could have obtained a few more AA points at my current adventure level if I were more vigilant about collections, questing, name hunting, and location discoveries. I rarely ask for help with quests. Character was made Novemer of 2007 and total play time is 63 days; this is roughly three to five hours a day since november 2007. This is the most a fella could say about Orani without maintaining some crazy level of accounting that borders on some type of obsessive scariness for a fella not get'n paid. All of this. The success of a Dirge, like any other character subclass, is mutually exclusive to the amount of cost consumed toward the character's build. I imagine the Dirge subclass have weaknesses and balancing concerns. However, these concerns have not hindered my game play as a Dirge. EDITED : 24-Aug I'm only able to write in the context of the realm of my Dirge, tier5. I should have stated this more explicitly instead of assuming that folk would not think I am not referring to the higher tiers. Also, stat allocations are different for the lower tiers. I wonder how well I would solo compared to my capabilities now if I mainly invested stats into Strength and Ingelligence. When stats properly assigned, my Dirge can go toe-to-toe with names, but this doesn't say much since Dirges should not go toe to toe. My Dirge spends much of the time jumping all around near the mob. For my Dirge, I do very little kiting. I have no problems adapting my strategy from tier to tier. This is how I got where I am now. Since my new spells are group oriented, then I figure I will be grouping quite a bit in the higher tiers instead of soloing. I am surprised by all of the tier7 posters. I guess they wish their adventure level to be at my tier once again.
SkyBee wrote: For clarification, I actually pay players gold coin for wanting to help by placing their focus solely on Orani's desires. If I asked for help with quests consistently, then I could not place much value into Orani's character build.
SkyBee wrote: A Dirge is able to defeat a monster by them self that is two levels below their own adventure level within a nice, short amount of time. This is more than enough damage. Considering all of the other abilities, giving a Dirge a higher damage capability would make the Dirge too strong. In other words, if folk want Dirges to do more damage, then prepare to sacrifice, or trade, the effectiveness of the Dirges other abilites. SkyBee wrote: Avoidance will only allow ya to avoid maybe half of the damage so a Dirge needs mitigation for the damage not avoided. Dirge is not just a melee DPSer. Dirge have some nice spell DPS as well. One Ludas shriek is equal to two of the Dirge's best combat arts and can equal in damage to the master strike with the proper amount of INT. Also, lets not forget the target encounter group AoE that deals more damage than four of the Dirges combat arts to multiple enemies at once. SkyBee wrote: This works good until fighting a named monster that is healing itself and is a caster with a nasty AoE. Armor provides excellent physical mitigation so this is easy to achieve. Wisdom provides excellent magical mitigation so this means you must sacrifice a little bit of avoidance or DPS. SkyBee wrote: Dirges are able to become self-reliant solely from adventuring, or hunting names, within the same tier as their adventure level. This is decent soloing.
SkyBee wrote: Skybee is from TEH FUTURE!! Clearly, we all get fixed in GU 38 or shortly thereafter. Dirges rejoice!~
Sorschae@Najena wrote: :shock: Good catch. LOL. I'm always thinking i'm a year ahead. Please replace all 2007 with 2007 ... doh. 2006 . LOL. :lol: Thanks. hehe
SkyBee wrote: I was not precise in this quote. For clarification, "A Dirge is able to defeat a named ^^^ monster by them self that is two levels below their own adventure level within a nice, short amount of time." Thanks Sorschae, you've motived me to do little proofreading. lol.
SkyBee wrote: At T7 we, Bards and Coercers, are parsing well below other "DPS" classes, due to our group utility. Agility should not be a primary focus, strength should be, as should intelligence. Even if primarily soloing the amount of avoidance added by agility is fairly laughable, it will come with a lot of our gear anyway and gives us power so its not a bad stat to have, but it shouldn't be a focus. Magical resistances are broken, hit points go a lot further in surviving AEs then resistances. Hit points also help against melee damage, where magical resistances are even more worthless. Dirges solo fine, it is slow, most named require kiting, but its do-able. There are exceptions, and we're not as good at soloing as a lot of classes, but given we're a group oriented class, that should probably be expected.
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: The reason why I stated that I solo names in dungeons is because kiting is near impossible in the crowded dungeons. I am able to destroy a ^^^ name that's two adventure levels below my Dirges level under two minutes. I know this because I am only able to cast my healing potion once due to the recast timer. Since dirges are able to do this with a named mob, then they can solo anything else noticeably quick. Now, if your baseline is a conjuror, wizard, or some other mainly DPS subclass, then a dirge compared to these subclasses would be slow as it should be when compared to a subclass that's sole purpose is DPS. Even a Fury should do more DPS than a Dirge because Furies hardly have the amount of utilization, monster manipulations, and debuffs when compared to a Bard. The success of a Dirge, like any other character subclass, is mutually exclusive to the amount of cost consumed toward the character's build. A Dirge with adept3 spells and has decent treasured items equipped might be able to destroy a ^^^ named that's is 6 or 7 adventure level below their own. Topanga@Everfrost wrote: I broke down the characters stats from my lvl47 Dirge and what is figured is : 1 point in Agility gave me .03% avoidance and 2.3 power points. 1 point in Wisdom gave me 2.3 points to all magical resistances and this increases their absorption by .05% to .07%. 1 point in Stamina gave me 3.42 health points. The good aspect about gaining a Strength boost is that you'll probably get a Stamina and Agility boost from the item as well The good aspect about gaining an Intelligence boost is that you'll probably get a Stamina and Wisdom boost from the item as well Even if you got 30 points into Stamina, this is just a 102.6 increase in the max health pool. An increase in the max health pool is a one time deal; however, this is beneficial when a healer is present. Absorption and avoidance percentages are recurrent with each monster hit; this is probably why the percentage increases are so low per point. Topanga@Everfrost wrote: How did you figure this?
Topanga@Everfrost wrote: As it should be, Bards should parse below due to their vast utilization as ya mentioned. A Bard dealing out enough damage to solo a white ^^^ or yellow ^^^ monsters would only mean that the Bard's utilization would be noticeably reduced; i hope this is how the trade-off system works. I am not familiar with the coercers/illusionists. Going to be interesting if I can continue at my current level of success with named monsters when I'm in the tier7 realm. I'm told the entire dynamics of subclasses shift when the character enters the tier7 realm; I am very skeptical of this.
One of the problems for Bards is that we start falling farther and farther behind past level 50 SkyBee. This means that what you can do now, you probably can not do anymore at level 60 with equivalent gear/spells, and most probably can not do by far at level 70. This is exactly where the difference of oppinion concerning base bard dps between many lower leveled bards and high end bards comes from. When lvl 70 bards have a hard time with lowest green heroic encounters (most of us), and might have a kiting chance against non casting blues/whites its hard to see MOST other classes killing these with ease. (with lesser equipment / spell quality). For the resist mitigation problems, these have been explained in other forums better then I can. It has to do with the way curves are implemented that makes resist gear useless after a certain point. (as far as I understood). (or was it that most aoe's do not mitigate at all, and will hit anyways???) People should realise that almost every class is different to play at lvl 70 compared to level 50. The game has evolved. Some things are good, some things are not so good. just read your last post and will add for bard dps: Utility is not reserved for bards. many/most other classes bring utility. I would never want my utility nerfed. Bards are a utility class, and utility should always be our strongest point. However when healers out-dps us (while healing and debuffing and bufffing etc!!!!), or when tanks (you know those huge lumpy oafs) out dps smart people like us....and bring utility....and tank....and dps....then something might be wrong.
firza wrote: Yeah, this is what I was told about lvl40 to 49 mobs as well but proved them wrong in this level range. The higher tiers will be interesting. firza wrote: I understand the magical mitigation as absorption. This means that each magical hit received is reduced by X%. AoEs is a type of a magical hit if the AoE is a magical attack. Also, I would never equip an item that is solely mitigation and avoidance unless the item is a Fabled with a nice proc. I would much rather have my INT and STR at the same level, WIS a little below INT and STR, and AGI with the highest possible. Would be nice if ya could link those other forums if ya have them. Much easier to do than for a fella to spend a hour look'n for it. I'll do a quick search. firza wrote: Yep, understood. I do not use the same strategies that I used in tier3 as I do in tier5. As a lvl47 Dirge, I have new content that made my prior strategy useless. firza wrote: I believe a main reason why Dirge's DPS is lower than others is due to the tremendous amount of mob manipulation, debuffing, and self-healing only combat arts that severely hinders a monster's DPS. You do not need alot of DPS if the monster is not hitting you. Mages get torn apart much more so than Dirges when monsters hit them; so Mages get high DPS. I think this is the balancing game between the monsters and the Dirge. If Dirges were given more DPS, then the Dirge would be too strong, but I am only able to speak as a lvl47 Dirge. If Dirges were given more DPS, then I bet that something will be reduced such as the effectiveness of the debuffs, reduced snares, or a lower success rate to land stuns androots. firza wrote: Of course, all subclasses bring some level of utility. This has never been contradicted. firza wrote: Comparing subclasses to other subclasses outside the same profession (i.e., bard, druid, etc) is only motivated by a ugly jealousy and self deprivation of Dirges who talked, dressed, and fantasized like a Fury or Shadowknight. Dirges are a hybrid class. A hybrid class does a bit of everything. At lvl47, a Dirge has ---- 4 long duration major debuffs, 2 combat art debuffs, and 2 regular short duration fast recast debuffs. ---- a 7sec daze, two stuns (a 3sec dur/45sec recast from AA point and a 2sec) with a possible third 7sec from a trigger, a 12sec fear, and a 6sec root. ---- the two monster movement debuffs stack to 91% forcing the mob to walk to you. ---- a medium damage target-encounter group AoE ---- self-healing combat arts up to 312-417hp with a 10sec recast ---- all of the group buff spells cost only one concentration except for the free group out-combat speed buff ---- all of the group buffs, except for the speed buff, improves a melee characters damage and avoidance from melee ---- an AA that gives a 100% successful block with a shield from one melee attack (45sec recast) allowing the character to potentially miss a very damaging melee damage. ---- the famous AA "Don't Kill the Messenger" group buff. ---- in grouping, health point transference, group and single in-combat/out-combat rez, the AA point Confront Fear that cures sickness and increases in-combat regen by 50%. I would think all this is a tremendous support to the primary healer by saving the healer the cost of power. Once again, I am lvl47 and have not the opportunity to use the health point transference spell and group rez. ---- in grouping, can improve hate management All this above is why a Dirge would be too powerful if their damage capabilities were higher. SKs and Furies do have much of utilization, or usefullness, but, if you were to give these two the same DPS as a Dirge, then they would run out of power before each blue con ^^^ named fight if they win.
SkyBee wrote: Topanga, ya got me thinking about Sta vs. Magical Absorption. If I were to put 30 points in Wisdom, then this would increase all of my magical absorption by 2.1% assuming .07% absorption per point. My character was hit with a magical attack at 102.6 then my character would have only absorbed 2.2 of the damage reducing the magical attack to actually damaging 100.4. Dang, I think this means that I would have to receive quite a few recurrent magical attacks to equal the amount of health added from the Stamina. However, this is a percentage game we're playing so the lower the magical attack damage the less benefit from absorption. This why I would never equip an item that is solely mitigation and avoidance unless the item is a Fabled with a a nie proc. To a Dirge, a Stamina adornment would most definately be more effective than a Wisdom adornment.
I don't think my previous post can be applied to Agility. Agility improves the chances for a 100% complete miss of damage instead of an amount of absorption.
Dirges can tank to the extent of soloing a blue con ^^^ named. However, a Dirge tanking a yellow con ^^^ named is about impossible even with healers; this is why you can not even remotely compare the "tankage" of a Dirge to the "tankage" of a Shadowknight. I do recall tanking a white con ^^^ named, but just barely and all the group members were the very best in their defense buffs and heals. If we got another new monster attack while in-combat, then I was dead.
After doing the calculations, the absorption rate is still quite a bit lower than the benefits per point from Stamina. I agree that magical resistances should not be a concern. The amount of magical resistance received from items that give an Intelligence boost would be good enough.
[p]Not to be flippant but, come back at 70 and say the same thing.[/p][p]What I could do at 50 and what I can do at 70 differ quite radically. SOE made subtle changes in mob strength in the higher tiers to account for better items and abilities. [/p]
Sugota@Butcherblock wrote: Exactly. This is why I explicitly state over and over my level. I know that level 70 is not the same thing as lvl40. I was told at lvl38ish that I would not be able to solo well in tier5. I have maintained the same level success in tier5 as I have in tier4. This is not to say my combat strategy is the same. My tier5 combat strategy is drastically different than tier4 due to new content. Sugota@Butcherblock wrote: I would hope so otherwise I would be able to just slaughter tier5 names rather quick. I honestly am curious how honest tier7 players are regarding their character build and combat strategy. I have met quite a few level 70 adventurers that didn't know much on how to fight as a Dirge probably due to them xp grinding to lvl70 as quickly as possible. I read this from their character play when they would mentor to help me with particular names such as only activating their bow attacks once or twice in a fight, or rushing in to pull the name when a proxy pull was not necessary.
I'm told the entire dynamics of subclasses shift when the character enters the tier7 realm. So fellas like me really don't have much to say or do toward the welfare of Dirges if my prior sentence is true. Furthermore, if any changes were required as seems like mainly tier7 Dirges suggest, then the changes should only apply to the tier7 realm of the Dirge because nothing has hindered my game play as a Dirge decently soloing from tier5 and below.
Sugota and Topanga, y'all wear good items. I noticed the EQ2 players info show ya both not wearing a round shield. Do you equip a round shield when soloing green con ^^^ names? If not, this drastically reduces your chance of success. I have tried soloing names with dual wield for the damage bonus dual wield provided and success continued to depend on the type of named monster.
Trust what you read here when you reach 70 your solo abilities will be ****. My Dirge is my raider 100% in eof end game armor and weapons including sword and bow. He is specced sword and board. He cant solo worth a dang by far the worst of my 4 toons. However, he is my first choice when I'm boxing with my pally. This duo can do content that the brig or the wiz boxed with the pally can't. Dirges are primarily support, where you have that option we shine like the brightest star.
