State of the Beserker class thread (last updated 17th November '08, TSO launch)

I don't think that the tone is aggressive, hostile or impolite. You could call it determined. It's a (relative) neutral writeup of problems.
If you take your examples, eg "We feel that Health Regen has been tried for years...". It's not a feeling, it's a fact that health regen doesn't help on raids. Reading your text I thougt, where is the passage "We, the people...". Sorry, I don't see why a dev should have a problem with the style of the text.

"If you play a little devil's advocate you can easily kill most of the arguments made."
Which?

"Dev's have become trained to ignore hostile language and arguments that are based on balance issues between classes. If the arguement for your class names another class, they ignore you."Look at the Ranger forum. They compared themselves all the time with Assasins (who else should they?) and they got all the stuff they wanted to be as powerful as them. How do you think you are supposed to ask for class balance without naming the problems in class balance?

I will play devil's advocate for you Bremmer.
Bremer wrote:

Many of the responses I gave playing devil's advocate are exact phrases the devs use publically. I'm not saying my rewording is the greatest, the point is that the language used above can easily trigger a defensive response from the dev reading it.
Let me point out one things again and stress it here...

Every idea for every ability was at some time an Everquest II Team Member's personal great idea! It was their idea that won out and got put into the game. People can be very hurt when attacking their ideas, which also leads to them not wanting to change it for fear of being "wrong" and possibly loosing face.

So the problems are not valid because
1. The 3 hate positions of rescue bring us from place 30 of the hate list (including pets) to 27 and that's almost place 1
2. The Eq2 developers have better things to do than developing Eq2
3. Raiding is only meant to be a playstyle for the other 23 classes in the game, not us.
Of course that answers all problems, I'll ask Gobrin at once to lock this thread and unsticky it.

Bunn, Bremer you both have valid points, let's not turn a valid, and potentially helpfull topic into eq2flames.

I agree with Gautsu, we need to stick together on this and not start bickering between ourselves.
Also Bunn, yes everything in EQ2 was someone's idea. But if they can't take critizism they shouldn't be in the business. No one is going to 'lose face' if they change something. I thought the whole idea of providing a service, and that's what this game is, to someone was to make it a service they enjoy. If we are all having issues and discontent with the service the ideas need to be changed or adjusted. You're supposed to provide for your customers not drive them away.

Gautsu@Crushbone wrote:

Honeslty, Gautsu, I'm really not trying to flame anyone on the discussion and I don't disagree with the changes that NEED to be made to bererkers. I just think that if we are serious about wanting our concerns addressed we should look at making the most persuasive plea we can.
My fear is that, if we convince the right EQ2 Team Member to read out list we need to express our concerns in a way that can impact that person and he/she not just dismiss our arguement out of hand. My goal is not to fight with Bremer, which honestly I didn't think I was doing, but instead try to bring some constructive criticism on a better approach to reaching our shared goal of reform to the berserker class.

Zeuhl@Mistmoore wrote:

Zeuhl I'm not trying to bicker, I'm trying to help. Bremer asked me to play devils advocate and I did. I took the side of the Devs and offered the kinds of responses I would see a dev giving. Much of the language I used in red is exactly the language I heard from the devs both in person and some of the kinds of respones in a dev chat.
Exactly, everything in EQ2 is someone's idea and they should be able to take critisicm and possibly yes they shouldn't be in the business if they can't, however in practice, it isn't the case. People have passion and beliefs and when they lobby for something and then later have to admit it was wrong later, they do feel like they lose face. People do not like to admit when they are wrong. I don't like it, I doubt anyone here likes having to either.
We are in a situation where someone's ideas were wrong. The question I'm asking is whether we say it...
"You were wrong, fix it" or "Please help us fix the problem with our class."

Bunn I wasn't trying to suggest that either you or Bremer were flaming each other, just trying to stop a back and forth post by post replay between the two of you, rather than just focus on the issues which this post attempts to address. If no one disagrees, with the issues listed here, other than just leave this here, untouched, could we post this as a petition to the devs, with support from as many zerkers as we can get, as a respectful way to let them know what we consider the problems with our class that we would like to see addressed?

Yea Bunn you weren't bickering yet... I'm not trying to attack you or Bremer, just saying that we need to check ourselves before it becomes that way. From what I've seen on most forums once you start going back and forth post to post like that before too long someone is told they are wrong and don't like it hehe.

I made a slight overhaul of the major issues point 3 and 4 and added "Look of the weapon" to the epic.

Nice, I absolutely hate the look of the weapon. It looks more like a mace than an axe. Someone linked an axe in the WW zerk channel today that had an awesome graphic. Only thing was that it was a 2 hander, but the giant 2 headed blade was wicked and the fire particle effect was nicely done.

Bremer wrote:

I can make a good case that we should not even mention specific gear, epic included, but to actually now call for changing a graphic is absurd. I wish I had a more constructive way to say that, but I can't think of one.
Brevity is our best ally, the only issues that should be mentioned are things that are major issues dealing with the core of our class and effecting enough paying players that the EQ2 Team feels it would be worth spending the time sooner than later to fix.

Well, I will say you guys finally got some buckler love with Shard of Hate.

\aITEM 1443343805 1613698761:Harbinger of Malcontent\/a
http://eq2players.station.sony.com/...m?itemId=360410

7 Double Attack, 7 DPS, 3 melee crit chance, and a 30% increase in base damage to your offense stance, all from a buckler, that's pretty spiffy! And the mob that drops it ain't all that hard either.

Bunn@Lucan DLere wrote:

Many people (including me) don't like the style of the weapon. Improving the weapon by giving it a new modell or removing one blade and turn it into an axe would be a job for the art department and doesn't interfer at all with the mechanic team, that is responsible for all other stuff listed here. So a change to the look wouldn't be at the cost of another change.
Also the graphic will ceratinly be used again in future expansions. So better asking now for a change than sometime in the future (or not at all).

Xalmat wrote:

Hm, not really. The shield has only half the avoidance of Virtue's Guard and probably somewhere on it in small letters stands "You are not supposed to tank, but only do DPS".

Bremer wrote:

I understand you don't like the style of the weapon Bremer, but if you are going to write a post and give every impression that it is speaking for the community, then you need to keep that for-most in your mind when asking for changes. The graphic is trivial. You shouldn't bog down important points with trivial laundry lists of personal issues.
Bremer, you have approx. 40 seperate items that you want fixed on this list. Add together the various CA's you want fixed, the pieces of gear, the powers included, and all the AA's you want changed...40 let me try saying it this way FORTY different things.
How about we cut down the list a little.

Xalmat wrote:

it is also 7% more double attack than we need, no one has tested the 30% base damage to see what that effects, i assume it is only the small damage proc tied to the stance. so all in all it is just a trade off for maybe 3% more DPS for 3% less defense(that is 3% defense i don't think any zerker can really spare at this moment in time as an MT or OT). i'd rather see those stats on a tower shield so that we might be able to ditch the buckler since those mythically equipped zerkers now have so much double attack there is no practical use for it aside from try and put it to use by switching AA lines.
i agree about the graphical of the epic, it shouldn't be bothered with here. many zerks may have complained about it but it doesn't hinder our gameplay and i think i can honestly say we all would want the class repaired before a stupid graphical change is made, i'd glady give up any effort put into that for maybe say a defensive immunity buff or tweak to adrenaline.

I just got Virtue's Guard and I wouldn't give it up for that except to make instances that much faster. DPS is not my problem. I wore the Festering Flesh Buckler for close to 6 months. I expect to get the same use out of VG.

ya know i've been playing this game for 3 years and i never even knew pallies had immunity to fear.

SK's, too